Dildos descend on UT Austin in 'Cocks Not Glocks' protest of guns on campus - Polidicks

[QUOTE=RB33;50961627]Shitty attitude people who do criminal things. Why must it be either? Is this contrary to reality, because this is what I was claiming, bad people exist, they do bad stuff. You have choosen to ignore that possibilty because you choosen to believe people can't do anything wrong. Stop being stubborn and admit that people can do wrong. Or what kind of utopia, do you live in?[/QUOTE] Vague data. Also, most gun violence is (correct me if im wrong) gang on gang violence, with most gun deaths being suicides. NOT random ass people who get angry in the street and decide to wage a war because ____ You still, again, havent given a source, ever, on why people would randomly start shootouts in the streets simply because they have a firearm (this doesnt happen.)

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50961638]The data in your article isn't new or revolutionary. It talks about vague data points without going into the underlying issues that cause the data. More to the point, it is excessively opinionated and complains about budgetary decisions that are well beyond the scope of the data, and has numerous other problems with how the data is categorized. You've had this explained to you. You've ignored it. Repeatedly. At this point I'm just going to say that you are either objectively stupid, or a dedicated troll.[/QUOTE] I have a very simple point, which you keep failing to understand. [B]Bad people exist, they shoot others.[/B] Nothing else right now. My data proves that. You have denied the possibility of anything bad happening due to there seemingly not existing bad people. Why can't these people commit crimes with concealed carry permits?

[QUOTE=RB33;50961494]People willing to break the law if pushed by others with the result being a gun fight. Such people will exist and ignoring them would be dangerous.[/QUOTE]As I said those people carried guns before we started legalizing concealed carry, the law hasn't and won't stop them either way. Doing so legally these days requires you to have a certain level of competence and training that's determined by your fellow citizens in whatever state you live in. So you have a choice: they do it anyway or they get training if the state requires it. You get to pick one. [QUOTE]I understand the US is a place with high tension with distrust in the government and high regard of old rights. I wish it wouldn't have these problems. I as a European just don't see or understand the need to carry guns at a school. It would never be allowed here but there would be no need for it either.[/QUOTE]You will likely never understand it, we do it largely because we can. Those "old rights" are quite relevant for us today, even if we might not have a need to exercise them.

[QUOTE=RB33;50961658]You have denied the possibility of anything bad happening due to there seemingly not existing bad people.[/QUOTE] Except that we have not said, or even vaguely implied that. Show me where we said that. Go on. Do it. "Bad" people as you've arbitrarily defined it don't just go out and get a CCW permit. The process of getting a permit is time consuming, and involves filing relatively expensive paperwork, as well as background checks. Some gang banger just goes out and buys an illegal gun, bypassing all the paperwork, [b]because he's already a criminal, so he doesn't fucking care.[/b] The fluke situation of someone with a CCW permit committing violent crimes is [i]exceedingly[/i] rare. Were talking fractions of a percent here, and that is substantially outweighed by the documented incidents of CCW helping. I ask you again. What practical benefit does removing legal CCW have when it has been repeatedly shown to have minimal correlation with crime rates? It's not a fluke that places like Chicago are violent shitholes regardless of the gun regulation, or lack thereof. Banning legal means of CCW does not correlate with reductions in crime. You still haven't gotten this depressingly simple point into your head yet. So which is it? Are you retarded, or are you a troll?

[QUOTE=AaronM202;50961639]Vague data. Also, most gun violence is (correct me if im wrong) gang on gang violence, with most gun deaths being suicides. NOT random ass people who get angry in the street and decide to wage a war because ____ You still, again, havent given a source, ever, on why people would randomly start shootouts in the streets simply because they have a firearm (this doesnt happen.)[/QUOTE] Because they get in a fight, do you people ever read what I write? I'm sure I said it a couple of times by now. [QUOTE=RB33;50948511]For the last part, assuming that they are at least sane criminals. The problem is that they can and if 2 armed people [B]fight[/B] it might end up a gunfight. I don't want to risk that. If there is no benefit of having people armed in public, then they shouldn't be.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50949164]I was referring to 2 people ending up in a [B]fight[/B] and both drawing their guns. Not gun violence without any reason at all behind it.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50949552]C. If these people for some reason strongly dislike each other and a [B]fight[/B] ensue. Is it possible that a shoot out could happen?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50950852]Reality is currently not mass-arming of civilians and irresponsibe people in public. If it happened, that would likely lead to conflict between gun carrying people. People fighting without guns now would then instead [B]fight[/B] with guns. So that's why I hope people are not convinced that carrying guns is a good thing.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RB33;50961686]Because they get in a fight, do you people ever read what I write? I'm sure I said it a couple of times by now.[/QUOTE] You have never provided a single credible source for your imaginary wild west shootout scenarios.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50961682]Except that we have not said, or even vaguely implied that. Show me where we said that. Go on. Do it. "Bad" people as you've arbitrarily defined it don't just go out and get a CCW permit. The process of getting a permit is time consuming, and involves filing relatively expensive paperwork, as well as background checks. Some gang banger just goes out and buys an illegal gun, bypassing all the paperwork, [b]because he's already a criminal, so he doesn't fucking care.[/b] The fluke situation of someone with a CCW permit committing violent crimes is [i]exceedingly[/i] rare. Were talking fractions of a percent here, and that is substantially outweighed by the documented incidents of CCW helping. I ask you again. What practical benefit does removing legal CCW have when it has been repeatedly shown to have minimal correlation with crime rates? It's not a fluke that places like Chicago are violent shitholes regardless of the gun regulation, or lack thereof. Banning legal means of CCW does not correlate with reductions in crime. You still haven't gotten this depressingly simple point into your head yet. So which is it? Are you retarded, or are you a troll?[/QUOTE] I'm neither and do you feel the need to include retarded in every reply you make? From my part this discussion was never only about concealed carry permits, it was about carrying guns in public for intent to defend yourself. Legally, I guess most are concealed carriers. The overall point I was making is that a society where people get the idea that carrying a gun is a good thing is bad. The practical benefit of removing it? Possibly none. My argument was disallowing it before it could too far. Personally, I don't want it since people really shouldn't be carrying guns in public. As simple as that. [editline]28th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zephyrs;50961697]You have never provided a single credible source for your imaginary wild west shootout scenarios.[/QUOTE] I need a source that people get into fights and sometimes with guns? You can't ever imagine that happening? I believe this showcases the entire problem regarding this: [url]http://www.wibc.com/news/local-news/fist-fight-leads-gun-fight-shopping-center-one-man-dead[/url]

[QUOTE=RB33;50961706]I'm neither and do you feel the need to include retarded in every reply you make? From my part this discussion was never only about concealed carry permits, it was about carrying guns in public for intent to defend yourself. Legally, I guess most are concealed carries. The overall point I was making is that a society where people get the idea that carrying a gun is a good thing is bad. The practical benefit of removing it? Possibly none. My argument was disallowing it before it could too far. Personally, I don't want it since people really shouldn't be carrying guns in public. As simple as that.[/quote] I'm going to call you dumb if you consistently make logical fallacies and ignore hard data, because guess what. Doing so makes you dumb. End of discussion. Again, you argument is based purely on what you [i]feel[/i] should happen. It doesn't coincide with the reality of the situation in any way shape or form. You consistently fail to grasp that. That makes you irrational and/or stupid. [QUOTE=RB33;50961706]I need a source that people get into fights and sometimes with guns? You can't ever imagine that happening? I believe this showcases the entire problem regarding this: [url]http://www.wibc.com/news/local-news/...r-one-man-dead[/url][/QUOTE] People do get into gun fights. Criminals. Show me CCW permit holders getting into these bizarre cataclysmic shootouts that you seem to feel are inevitable when we reach some 'critical mass' of guns. Your own source doesn't even say the initial shooter was legally carrying. Even more important, it doesn't showcase a trend, which is the actual bit that matters. It's an isolated incident. Even if the initial shooter was legally carrying, [i]and[/i] if he was the one who instigated the fight rather than responding defensively in fear of his life, a handful of isolated incidents doesn't outweigh the cases where it has helped people. At this point it's obvious that you are just googling for stuff, hoping to fling enough shit at the wall that something sticks.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50961766]I'm going to call you dumb if you consistently make logical fallacies and ignore hard data, because guess what. Doing so makes you dumb. End of discussion. Again, you argument is based purely on what you [i]feel[/i] should happen. It doesn't coincide with the reality of the situation in any way shape or form. You consistently fail to grasp that. That makes you irrational and/or stupid.[/QUOTE] Opinions is what you feel should happen, not what it actually happening. You can't have an opinion unless it's what currently is happening? There's guns everywhere, therefore only opinions with involving guns staying are allowed? [QUOTE]People do get into gun fights. Criminals. Show me CCW permit holders getting into these bizarre cataclysmic shootouts that you seem to feel are inevitable when we reach some 'critical mass' of guns. Your own source doesn't even say the initial shooter was legally carrying. Even more important, it doesn't showcase a trend, which is the actual bit that matters. It's an isolated incident. Even if the initial shooter was legally carrying, [i]and[/i] if he was the one who instigated the fight rather than responding defensively in fear of his life, a handful of isolated incidents doesn't outweigh the cases where it has helped people. At this point it's obvious that you are just googling for stuff, hoping to fling enough shit at the wall that something sticks.[/QUOTE] I haven't claimed there will any larger gunfight epidemic. Just that incidents involving guns increase if the number of people carrying them increase as well. More guns, more chances that they are used. The source was proving that people get into fights and it can escalate into a gunfight. Is it not possible for a concealed carry permit holder to do the same? Do you deny it being possible, yes or no?

[QUOTE=RB33;50961276]I'm out now.[/QUOTE] This is the sort of thing Zephyrs was talking about, you know. This is like the fourth or fifth time you've said something like this at the very least. You can't admit when you're wrong but neither can you say you're leaving the conversation and actually do that. [QUOTE=RB33;50961420]I will ask you one final question, do you think that if bad people gained access to legally carry their guns in public, that they would not commit crimes?[/QUOTE] Why does that matter? Someone who is going to commit a crime isn't going to up and decide not to commit it because it'd be illegal for them to carry a gun. [QUOTE=RB33;50961627]Is this contrary to reality, because this is what I was claiming, bad people exist, they do bad stuff. You have choosen to ignore that possibilty because you choosen to believe people can't do anything wrong. Stop being stubborn and admit that people can do wrong. Or what kind of utopia, do you live in?[/QUOTE] Quit being so dense and glossing over shit. People have explained repeatedly why the high homicide rate in the US is not a result of guns but issues with poverty, education, and mental healthcare. As I said in one of my very first posts in this thread: Address those three issues and gun violence (as well as violence in general) will drop very drastically. [QUOTE=RB33;50961706]The overall point I was making is that a society where people get the idea that carrying a gun is a good thing is bad.[/QUOTE] How exactly is having the ability to defend yourself or others a bad thing?

[QUOTE=Alice3173;50961882]This is the sort of thing Zephyrs was talking about, you know. This is like the fourth or fifth time you've said something like this at the very least. You can't admit when you're wrong but neither can you say you're leaving the conversation and actually do that.[/QUOTE] I had left for a day, then this happened. [QUOTE=ColdAsRice;50958320]When I was at San Francisco State University, half of the time I was in the bus and looked downward I saw the clip of a pocketknife sticking out of a dude's pocket. I always had my own knife, and didn't immediately get into a duel with the other guy just because he was carrying as well. According to RB33 we were all supposed to be dead and the streets running with blood... Just because we have weapons doesn't mean we're gonna kill each other for no reason.[/QUOTE] Pure fantasy, I haven't said that. If people wouldn't bring it up again with made up stuff about what I said, I would not be here. It's one thing to disagree with me or even call me retarded but don't just make stuff up. We can talk without doing that. [QUOTE]Why does that matter? Someone who is going to commit a crime isn't going to up and decide not to commit it because it'd be illegal for them to carry a gun.[/QUOTE] Because it's their argument that they don't commit crimes. Which why I ask if according to them, it could ever happen. [QUOTE]Quit being so dense and glossing over shit. People have explained repeatedly why the high homicide rate in the US is not a result of guns but issues with poverty, education, and mental healthcare. As I said in one of my very first posts in this thread: Address those three issues and gun violence (as well as violence in general) will drop very drastically.[/QUOTE] What I have talked about is the violence caused by arming the people even further. Not murders in general. [QUOTE]How exactly is having the ability to defend yourself or others a bad thing?[/QUOTE] It's bad because people shouldn't need to be armed in modern day society.

[QUOTE=RB33;50961900]Because it's their argument that they don't commit crimes. Which why I ask if according to them, it could ever happen.[/QUOTE] Just because something [I]could[/I] happen doesn't mean it does. It's completely possible for someone to get a CCW permit and then abuse that to commit a crime. But it's incredibly unlikely for the reasons people have repeatedly explained to you: Criminals are often lazy and take the easiest path (which would be to just illegally own a gun), they're desperate in which case they couldn't afford to pay for a CCW permit, or they already have a criminal background and would thus be ineligible for one to begin with. [QUOTE]What I have talked about is the violence caused by arming the people even further. Not murders in general.[/QUOTE] And as people have repeatedly said: Prove it. You provided a couple of isolated incidents and a rather biased view of homicide statistics. Nothing even remotely as thorough as what others have linked to you. [QUOTE]It's bad because people shouldn't need to be armed in modern day society.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's kinda weird that people need to be capable of defending themselves. Let's go make it so they can't without breaking the law while the people they'd want to defend themselves from are completely unaffected. That seems like a totally rational solution, yup. Seriously though: Again, WHY is it bad? There is literally nothing at all wrong with having the capacity to defend yourself or others when necessary.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;50961919]Just because something [I]could[/I] happen doesn't mean it does. It's completely possible for someone to get a CCW permit and then abuse that to commit a crime. But it's incredibly unlikely for the reasons people have repeatedly explained to you: Criminals are often lazy and take the easiest path (which would be to just illegally own a gun), they're desperate in which case they couldn't afford to pay for a CCW permit, or they already have a criminal background and would thus be ineligible for one to begin with.[/QUOTE] It doesn't need to be the opposite either. That it would never happen. I said it can happen and with more bad people carrying guns, the likelihood increases. But this isn't about criminals, it was never about criminals. It was about people doing it legally who can't control themselves and then it escalates when guns get involved. That's the risk. With more people armed, more risk for people making a mistake or escalating an otherwise gunless fight. [QUOTE]Seriously though: Again, WHY is it bad? There is literally nothing at all wrong with having the capacity to defend yourself or others when necessary.[/QUOTE] I was serious, it doesn't belong in modern society. People shouldn't be walking around with guns. For whatever reason.

[QUOTE=RB33;50961786][B]Opinions is what you feel should happen, not what it actually happening.[/B] You can't have an opinion unless it's what currently is happening? There's guns everywhere, therefore only opinions with involving guns staying are allowed?[/QUOTE] Once again you don't have any valid point to make, and are resorting to nothing more than ridiculous strawmen arguments. The ultimate irony here is that the bolded part is a direct contradiction of your arguments as it is quite literally [i]exactly[/i] what you have been doing. You have been using your opinions as facts, and are too dumb to realize it. [QUOTE=RB33;50961786]I haven't claimed there will any larger gunfight epidemic. Just that incidents involving guns increase if the number of people carrying them increase as well. More guns, more chances that they are used. The source was proving that people get into fights and it can escalate into a gunfight. Is it not possible for a concealed carry permit holder to do the same? Do you deny it being possible, yes or no? [/quote] You have literally claimed that it will happen. Then you backpedaled and said it was 'possible' when asked for sources showing stats. Never mind the obvious equivocation of the word 'possible'; instead of showing stats, you provided isolated incidents that could be found in 30 seconds on google. You did this [b]because there aren't any valid sources showing trends that you can use to back up your argument.[/b] Rather than concede that you are being a dipshit, you have once again made more appeals to emotion and logical contradictions then tried to peddle your garbage as intellectually valid. Show aggregate trends. Until you do that you do not have a point to make. You can't show those trends because they literally do not exist. Every major study, even ones backed by the federal government, which has clear incentives to back further restrictions, has come to a different conclusion than you. Bans sort of work in countries that can control the guns, and even then there's not a substantial reduction in violent crime. You can't even get rid of the black market here. It will have no substantial impact on crime, and will put many people's lives at risk. [editline]28th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RB33;50962018]It doesn't need to be the opposite either. That it would never happen. I said it can happen and with more bad people carrying guns, the likelihood increases. But this isn't about criminals, it was never about criminals. It was about people doing it legally who can't control themselves and then it escalates when guns get involved. That's the risk. With more people armed, more risk for people making a mistake or escalating an otherwise gunless fight. [B] I was serious, it doesn't belong in modern society. People shouldn't be walking around with guns. For whatever reason.[/B][/QUOTE] And once again you have zero data to support your wild west shootout hypotheticals. Once again the bold is you peddling your opinions as if they have any factual merit.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50962047]Once again you don't have any valid point to make, and are resorting to nothing more than ridiculous strawmen arguments. The ultimate irony here is that the bolded part is a direct contradiction of your arguments as it is quite literally [i]exactly[/i] what you have been doing. You have been using your opinions as facts, and are too dumb to realize it.[/QUOTE] What I want and what I think would happen are different things. I want a gunless society, I believe more guns will lead to more violence. They are not the same thing. [QUOTE]You have literally claimed that it will happen. Then you backpedaled and said it was 'possible' when asked for sources showing stats. Never mind the obvious equivocation of the word 'possible'; instead of showing stats, you provided isolated incidents that could be found in 30 seconds on google. You did this [b]because there aren't any valid sources showing trends that you can use to back up your argument.[/b] Rather than concede that you are being a dipshit, you have once again made more appeals to emotion and logical contradictions then tried to peddle your garbage as intellectually valid. [/QUOTE] Prove it for once, where have I said a large gunfight epidemic would happen. Because I never meant that. A gun problem with increased shootings but no epidemic. Meanwhile, the other side see nothing to worry about. Even finding it hard to concede that bad people could be a problem. [QUOTE]Show aggregate trends. Until you do that you do not have a point to make. You can't show those trends because they literally do not exist. Every major study, even ones backed by the federal government, which has clear incentives to back further restrictions, has come to a different conclusion than you. Bans sort of work in countries that can control the guns, and even then there's not a substantial reduction in violent crime. You can't even get rid of the black market here. It will have no substantial impact on crime, and will put many people's lives at risk. [/QUOTE] Now you're changing the topic, this isn't about guns in general. It's about more people starting to carry them in public which could cause a problem. The problem with this discussion is that I talk about one thing, everyone else about their own view about what they think i'm talking about. This isn't working. [QUOTE]And once again you have zero data to support your wild west shootout hypotheticals. Once again the bold is you peddling your opinions as if they have any factual merit.[/QUOTE] Why even continue, it should have ended long ago. You are just making up your own fantasy about what you think I wrote. "wild west shootouts" Do you even know what an opinon is? It's what you think, it's the opposite of a fact. You're complaining about an opinion not being factual. Is there always a right answer? I can't want something? Would it be factually wrong? (You might be referring to something else than what i'm thinking of.)

You guys are pretty incredibly patient, just reading this back and forth with RB33 is frustrating. This was a pretty good discussion a couple pages back, but I feel like you guys are just banging against a wall at this point.

[QUOTE=RB33;50961627]Shitty attitude people who do criminal things. Why must it be either?[/QUOTE] Criminals can't legally purchase guns after certain criminal convictions.

[QUOTE=RB33;50962170]What I want and what I think would happen are different things. I want a gunless society, I believe more guns will lead to more violence. They are not the same thing. Prove it for once, where have I said a large gunfight epidemic would happen. Because I never meant that. A gun problem with increased shootings but no epidemic. Meanwhile, the other side see nothing to worry about. Even finding it hard to concede that bad people could be a problem. Now you're changing the topic, this isn't about guns in general. It's about more people starting to carry them in public which could cause a problem. The problem with this discussion is that I talk about one thing, everyone else about their own view about what they think i'm talking about. This isn't working. Why even continue, it should have ended long ago. You are just making up your own fantasy about what you think I wrote. "wild west shootouts" Do you even know what an opinon is? It's what you think, it's the opposite of a fact. You're complaining about an opinion not being factual. Is there always a right answer? I can't want something? Would it be factually wrong? (You might be referring to something else than what i'm thinking of.)[/QUOTE] Your opinion is fucking retarded and made irrelevant by a long list of hard facts and statistical evidence which you continually throw out because "myy opinionnn!! :(((((" Guess what, if my opinion is that the sky is neon pink with green polka dots, my opinion is [B]wrong[/B]. How about you make good on your sixth or seventh promise to leave and actually do it? I'd like to think I'm a fair debater in these discussions, usually pretty level headed and willing to talk about issues, but jesus christ dude. There is absolutely no reason for you to expect us to humor arguments only supported by shit that's whisked out of thin air and posed as fact. You wanna talk shop on the issue, you have to ground your points in reality like everyone else.

RB33 holy fuck dude. This shit doesnt happen, you're delusional. You cant even provide a single source on Concealed Carry people actually doing the shit you say they'd do. Your argument, your opinion, has no basis in reality. None. Zip. Zero. Why are you arguing it then?

[QUOTE=RB33;50962170]Why even continue, it should have ended long ago. You are just making up your own fantasy about what you think I wrote. "wild west shootouts"[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50950852]Reality is currently not mass-arming of civilians and irresponsibe people in public. If it happened, that would likely lead to conflict between gun carrying people. People fighting without guns now would then instead fight with guns. So that's why I hope people are not convinced that carrying guns is a good thing.[/QUOTE] ??? If that isn't saying shootouts would increase then I think you need a dictionary.

Here RB33 i'll help you out, i'll highlight specifically what you're saying thats factually wrong and is not congruent to the real world. [QUOTE=RB33;50962170]What I want and what I think would happen are different things. I want a gunless society, [b]I believe more guns will lead to more violence.[/b] They are not the same thing. Prove it for once, where have I said a large gunfight epidemic would happen. Because I never meant that. [b]A gun problem with increased shootings but no epidemic.[/b] Meanwhile, the other side see nothing to worry about. Even finding it hard to concede that bad people could be a problem. Now you're changing the topic, this isn't about guns in general. [b]It's about more people starting to carry them in public which could cause a problem. [/b]The problem with this discussion is that I talk about one thing, everyone else about their own view about what they think i'm talking about. This isn't working.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50962018]It doesn't need to be the opposite either. That it would never happen. I said it can happen and with more bad people carrying guns, the likelihood increases.[b] But this isn't about criminals, it was never about criminals. It was about people doing it legally who can't control themselves and then it escalates when guns get involved. That's the risk. With more people armed, more risk for people making a mistake or escalating an otherwise gunless fight.[/b] I was serious, it doesn't belong in modern society. People shouldn't be walking around with guns. For whatever reason.[/QUOTE] Bonus points for: [QUOTE=RB33;50962018]I was serious, it doesn't belong in modern society. People shouldn't be walking around with guns. For whatever reason.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50961706] The overall point I was making is that a society where people get the idea that carrying a gun is a good thing is bad. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RB33;50961900] It's bad because people shouldn't need to be armed in modern day society.[/QUOTE] Being stupidly naive.

I mean I've agreed with RB33 before in other threads but this shit is getting ridiculous, it's the quintessential "I don't like guns they're bad!" emotional argument that eschews facts, common sense, and the reality of the situation on the ground. Having an opinion is fine, trying to reinforce your emotional stance with hypotheticals that fly in the face of reality is not. For anyone watching this is why gun rights activists have dug in their heels, this kind of circular argument demonstrated right here.

[QUOTE=RB33;50961276][url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604[/url] Bad people who shoot people exist in America, do I really need to prove that to you? I'm out now. [/QUOTE] "bad people" shooting people for no reason happens so infrequently that it becomes national news every time it happens. Most people that are shot are shot for a reason, not because criminals flip out and decide to ice random other people

So hang on, let me see if I grasp what's going on here. For SOME reason, people who can conceal carry will for SOME reason lose their shit and start a gun fight for no fucking reason. Even though it has been pointed out time and time again, CC permit holders go through some incredible shit to earn that permit? In ways that at MINIMUM make them as competent as the police, and in most instances make them MORE competent than the police, in terms of gun proficiency. Nobody is talking about CC people doing the police's job. They carry those guns in the interest of self preservation. The kind of people who will "lose their shit" and "actively look for reasons to draw their firearm" are NOT the kind of people who will qualify for a CC permit. I love the old adage in this situation. "I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it." Yes this kind of shit SHOULD be up to the police, but as has been repeatedly stated, they can't be everywhere at once, and are NOT legally obligated to protect you. The situations that are being discussed concern instances where you are backed against the wall and its either your life or the perp's. I rather like my life so fuck that perp. I can't wrap my head around why SELF defense is such a bad thing. Removing the ability for responsible law abiding citizens to defend themselves will ONLY affect the law abiding citizens. Wait, I'm wrong, it'll affect the criminals too, it will just make their mission easier. I believe I speak for a lot of people in this thread when I say fuck that noise.

[QUOTE=Solo Wing;50965478]Removing the ability for responsible law abiding citizens to defend themselves will ONLY affect the law abiding citizens. [/QUOTE] Which is the intent, because these people have gotten it into their heads that those responsible, law-abiding citizens are incompetent buffoons with no training who would turn a parking dispute into a violent shooting at the slightest provocation. Which I suspect is- and I mean this completely seriously, not as a snipe- an act of projection on the part of people who would not trust themselves to be diligent about gun safety or avoiding confrontation.