Democrats edited anti-capitalist, pro-socialist message out of photo in promo image - Polidicks

I find the idea of 'democratic socialism' funny. The opposite, Autocratic socialism is an oxymoron

[QUOTE=The Jack;52049102]I find the idea of 'democratic socialism' funny.[/QUOTE] I really like the nordic model of social democracy not biased or anything

This would prevent more millennials from leave party altogether. Buy adopting actual Sanders-style democratic socialist/social democratic policies and thinking they changed from their previous mistakes, But yet again they refused too for their jobs than party's future.

[QUOTE=The Jack;52049102]I find the idea of 'democratic socialism' funny. The opposite, Autocratic socialism is an oxymoron[/QUOTE] Wouldn't the opposite of democratic socialism be autocratic feudalism though?

[QUOTE=gokiyono;52049418]Wouldn't the opposite of democratic socialism be autocratic feudalism though?[/QUOTE] More like autocratic government with Laissez-faire market principles Or a perhaps a corpocracy.

[QUOTE=HappyCompy;52028468]According to some socialists, social democracy brings contradictions of its own such as disincentivizing investment of production by capitalists at the top due to taxation on profits and eroding labor discipline at the bottom due to increased job security. They also argue that it serves only to "prop up" a contradiction-laden system and doesn't solve exploitation, alienating labor, and business fluctuations (eg. boom-and-bust cycles). Personally, while I would love to see social democracy implemented in the United States, I feel that further democratization of society will still be needed. As we all know, workplaces are generally totalitarian institutions, so placing more control in the hands of the workers via worker's councils or a similar system would be a step in the right direction (eg, electing shareholders, holding plebiscites for major business decisions that affect workers, etc).[/QUOTE] In the end, none of those will address the looming problem, though. Automation is coming not only to the auto industry, but to a HUGE variety of jobs that the working class and even the middle class absolutely depend on to survive. You're looking at mass unemployment, with not nearly enough new jobs being created to keep up, becoming the new norm - a new reality. What this means? UBI and democratic socialism are absolutely essential if the Americas are not to become an oligarchy as ugly as Russia. Canada, the UK, Europe, they can adapt. But with its cultural hatred of socialism, can the USA? Democratic socialism doesn't necessarily mean more strict labor laws - but it does mean higher taxes on the rich, and ultimately a basic income for every individual, working or not.

[QUOTE=Dr.C;52024289]I'm going to try to be optimistic here and say it's because they want to implement socialism first to get people to love it then say "this was socialism all along, did you like it?" like those blind taste tests they used to have in soda commercials[/QUOTE] Democrats tried for 8 years to socialize the government under Obama and all they have to show for it is trillions in debt, a nearly extinct middle class and a trash healthcare law that costs 3 times as much as before it was enacted [I]that covers less and won't allow me to see my family doctor[/I] without jumping through hoops on the stupid health insurance marketplace to get an exception. Democrats don't have to pretend to put flowers and smiley faces on their policies, we know what socialist agendas are and we don't want anything to do with them. It's like those old communist propaganda posters; Bright colors, smiling faces and motivational words which everyone knows is a lie but doesn't say anything because they'll be shunned/attacked/disappeared. I was making a good living wage before Obama came into office, but that evaporated about a year into his presidency and I've had a hell of a time scraping by until just this year. People are actually wanting to spend money again and I've gotten a shitton more work in the last 3 months than I have in the previous 7 years.

You know you had a majority Republican government, right?

[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;52049946]It's like those old communist propaganda posters; Bright colors, smiling faces and motivational words which everyone knows is a lie but doesn't say anything because they'll be shunned/attacked/disappeared.[/QUOTE] it's all a lie that's why it's been successful in pretty much all of Western-Europe and other countries the world over, and those countries all rank extremely high in lists regarding quality of life I think the problem is more that everything that [I]was[/I] implemented was half-assed also I doubt Trump could've implemented big changes that would've given you a shitton more work in 3 months

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;52050069]it's all a lie that's why it's been successful in pretty much all of Western-Europe and other countries the world over, and those countries all rank extremely high in lists regarding quality of life I think the problem is more that everything that [I]was[/I] implemented was half-assed also I doubt Trump could've implemented big changes that would've given you a shitton more work in 3 months[/QUOTE] Here's the problem with Europe: it's a dying civilization. Sure, it's a slow and happy death, but it's dying nonetheless. They've had a stagnant economy, with essentially zero growth, for decades. They are increasingly below replacement birth rates, meaning their social programs rely on mass immigration from outside of Europe. Etc. Their system can't sustain itself in the long run.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52050149]Here's the problem with Europe: it's a dying civilization. Sure, it's a slow and happy death, but it's dying nonetheless. They've had a stagnant economy, with essentially zero growth, for decades. They are increasingly below replacement birth rates, meaning their social programs rely on mass immigration from outside of Europe. Etc. Their system can't sustain itself in the long run.[/QUOTE] Yo, we're being serious. Quit fantasizing. I'd ask you where you get your information but i can't imagine it valid. I get where you're coming from, if I was born into a cult that told me our system was best, even though it didn't advantage me, but people started calling other systems shit so mine seemed better, I'd jump right on board. Fortunately, I wasn't educated in such a manner, and... Ahw man. I just want you to know how wrong you are. Like I don't think a rating would suffice. A disagree doesn't work because it's not an opinion, and a dumb doesn't work because I don't think it's your fault. I feel that I need to explain your thinking to point out how flawed it is. Have you ever been to Europe? Do you have a passport? How good was your school? I get that the USA is going through some hard times at the moment, but directing your hatred outwards won't make america great again. I've been to a lot of places in europe, and I've visited the states a few times. I think any degree of engagement you might have will prove you wrong. And if you're pissed at me for taking this kind of stance; Irrelevant.

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;52050069]it's all a lie that's why it's been successful in pretty much all of Western-Europe and other countries the world over, and those countries all rank extremely high in lists regarding quality of life[/QUOTE] That socialism [I]sure is working well[/I] in places like Greece where the government has near-defaulted multiple times and been bailed out. And how about that 45% unemployment in the sub 25 age group? Then there's Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Cyprus. All is not well on the socialist front. It's a great idea on paper and when you have enough of other peoples' money to spend to keep it running, but the economic crisis shows what happens when the funding dries up. I feel bad for the generations to come because they're going to be questioning for decades why they have this massive debt they have to pay back from fuckups old people made. Socialists place all of their eggs in the big government basket with regulation and excessive public programs and it ends up failing and they can never seem to put two and two together. But Europe isn't the only place with economic woes tied to socialism, look at Iceland, several south american countries (Venezuela being one) and China all have massive economic problems. [QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;52050069]also I doubt Trump could've implemented big changes that would've given you a shitton more work in 3 months[/QUOTE] Trump doesn't have to introduce any big changes to stimulate economic growth, he just needs to repeal some bullshit for it to happen on its own, which he's been doing. Anecdotally, I have several friends with medium sized businesses (movie theaters, restaurants mostly) and they were being raped up the backside by the socialist policies enacted during the Obama admin. They had difficulty affording new staff and even paying existing payroll and maintenance due to additional taxes, tax increases and idiot regulations that got stacked on top of them, nevermind the additional headache of the mandatory healthcare coverage for 50+ employees. I was able to read their books a few times and I didn't know how they stayed sane. I run a small business myself and the amount of paperwork is already bullshit. I've had additional crap stacked on me paperwork wise, but its nowhere near as bad as them. Thankfully I have people who can help me sift through it because it's a nightmare sometimes.

[QUOTE=The Jack;52050220]Yo, we're being serious. Quit fantasizing. I'd ask you where you get your information but i can't imagine it valid. I get where you're coming from, if I was born into a cult that told me our system was best, even though it didn't advantage me, but people started calling other systems shit so mine seemed better, I'd jump right on board. Fortunately, I wasn't educated in such a manner, and... Ahw man. I just want you to know how wrong you are. Like I don't think a rating would suffice. A disagree doesn't work because it's not an opinion, and a dumb doesn't work because I don't think it's your fault. I feel that I need to explain your thinking to point out how flawed it is. Have you ever been to Europe? Do you have a passport? How good was your school? I get that the USA is going through some hard times at the moment, but directing your hatred outwards won't make america great again. I've been to a lot of places in europe, and I've visited the states a few times. I think any degree of engagement you might have will prove you wrong. And if you're pissed at me for taking this kind of stance; Irrelevant.[/QUOTE] I didn't cite those two things because they are common knowledge and extremely easy to look up, but here; I'll give you the data: 1) Economically stagnant: [URL]http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth[/URL] Take a look at the maximum time length. It shows that since the 1990s, the oldest data on the chart, GDP growth has stayed under 1% (other than a few spikes). This growth rate is right about the same as the population growth rate, including immigrants, meaning that the actual growth rate per capita has been around zero. 2) About the birth/death rates: [URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/23/baby-crisis-europe-brink-depopulation-disaster[/URL] "By 2060 the government expects the population to plunge from 81 million to 67 million, a decrease that is being accelerated by depressed areas in both eastern and western parts of the country that are haemorrhaging large numbers. The UN predicts that, by 2030, the percentage of Germans in the workplace will drop 7% to just 54%. No other industrial land is as starkly affected – and this is despite a strong influx of young migrant labourers. In order to offset this shortage, Germany needs to welcome an average of 533,000 immigrants every year, which perhaps gives context to the estimate that 800,000 refugees are due to come to Germany this year." Europe depends on younger people to pay for it's aging population's burden on the welfare state. With the extremely low birthrates experienced by the majority of western european nations, they are going to need to import huge numbers of immigrants outside of Europe. [editline]2nd April 2017[/editline] Just to be clear: your anecdotal experience and personal insults are meaningless.

[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;52050505]That socialism [I]sure is working well[/I] in places like Greece where the government has near-defaulted multiple times and been bailed out. And how about that 45% unemployment in the sub 25 age group? .[/QUOTE] What happened in Greece really doesn't have a lot to do with socialism. This and you lack of sources implies that you don't really know much about what you're talking about

[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;52050505]That socialism [I]sure is working well[/I] in places like Greece where the government has near-defaulted multiple times and been bailed out. And how about that 45% unemployment in the sub 25 age group? Then there's Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Cyprus. All is not well on the socialist front. It's a great idea on paper and when you have enough of other peoples' money to spend to keep it running, but the economic crisis shows what happens when the funding dries up. I feel bad for the generations to come because they're going to be questioning for decades why they have this massive debt they have to pay back from fuckups old people made. Socialists place all of their eggs in the big government basket with regulation and excessive public programs and it ends up failing and they can never seem to put two and two together. But Europe isn't the only place with economic woes tied to socialism, look at Iceland, several south american countries (Venezuela being one) and China all have massive economic problems. Trump doesn't have to introduce any big changes to stimulate economic growth, he just needs to repeal some bullshit for it to happen on its own, which he's been doing. Anecdotally, I have several friends with medium sized businesses (movie theaters, restaurants mostly) and they were being raped up the backside by the socialist policies enacted during the Obama admin. They had difficulty affording new staff and even paying existing payroll and maintenance due to additional taxes, tax increases and idiot regulations that got stacked on top of them, nevermind the additional headache of the mandatory healthcare coverage for 50+ employees. I was able to read their books a few times and I didn't know how they stayed sane. I run a small business myself and the amount of paperwork is already bullshit. I've had additional crap stacked on me paperwork wise, but its nowhere near as bad as them. Thankfully I have people who can help me sift through it because it's a nightmare sometimes.[/QUOTE] What is the Greece disaster to do with Socialism? Ireland? Spain? Portugal? At most any of these countries are slightly left of centre leaning. Just because the majority party (of one) of these countries has Socialist in the name doesn't mean they are. Our Labour bills itself as a 'Democratic Socialist' party. Fat chance, with the exception of Corbyn, most of them are as right as the Tories.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52051125]Anecdotes and a poor graph reading.[/QUOTE] Steady growth is better than bust and boom. Europe is in less trouble than America, same as always. Also. We're automating more and more. The same jobs can be done for less workers. The need for a labour force is shrinking.

[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;52050505] Then there's Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Cyprus. All is not well on the socialist front. It's a great idea on paper and when you have enough of other peoples' money to spend to keep it running, but the economic crisis shows what happens when the funding dries up. I feel bad for the generations to come because they're going to be questioning for decades why they have this massive debt they have to pay back from fuckups old people made. [/QUOTE] So you're just going to ignore Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, etc etc then? [QUOTE=sgman91;52051125]I didn't cite those two things because they are common knowledge and extremely easy to look up, but here; I'll give you the data: 1) Economically stagnant: [URL]http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth[/URL] Take a look at the maximum time length. It shows that since the 1990s, the oldest data on the chart, GDP growth has stayed under 1% (other than a few spikes). This growth rate is right about the same as the population growth rate, including immigrants, meaning that the actual growth rate per capita has been around zero.[/QUOTE] So how do you know this is caused by the fact that a lot of EU members are welfare states? I'm pretty sure the problem is a lot more complicated than that [QUOTE=sgman91;52051125] 2) About the birth/death rates: [URL]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/23/baby-crisis-europe-brink-depopulation-disaster[/URL] "By 2060 the government expects the population to plunge from 81 million to 67 million, a decrease that is being accelerated by depressed areas in both eastern and western parts of the country that are haemorrhaging large numbers. The UN predicts that, by 2030, the percentage of Germans in the workplace will drop 7% to just 54%. No other industrial land is as starkly affected – and this is despite a strong influx of young migrant labourers. In order to offset this shortage, Germany needs to welcome an average of 533,000 immigrants every year, which perhaps gives context to the estimate that 800,000 refugees are due to come to Germany this year." Europe depends on younger people to pay for it's aging population's burden on the welfare state. With the extremely low birthrates experienced by the majority of western european nations, they are going to need to import huge numbers of immigrants outside of Europe. [/QUOTE] It feels like you think the EU [I]is[/I] the welfare state or something. Just so you know, the member states themselves have control over that, not the EU. The member states are all coming up with ways on how to update their pension systems on their own. The EU isn't coordinating some kind of solution for the whole of the EU which involves mass immigration or something. My country, for example, is going to link the state-funded income for the elderly to life expectancy, among other things.

Hahaha Ireland being socialist, one of the best jokes Ive ever heard. Did you really assume that because those four countries were lumped in our governments, politics and problems were similiar?

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;52052974]So you're just going to ignore Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, etc etc then? [/QUOTE] The countries you listed are social democracies, not socialist. Socialism is when businesses are owned and controlled by the public/workers for the benefit of the public. Germany, France, Belgium, etc etc all still have private business and are very much capitalist..

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52053310]Then there is no socialist countries in Europe [/QUOTE] Correct. [QUOTE]and none of the leading parties are socialists. [/QUOTE] Not necessarily. I believe any self proclaimed socialist parties truly wish to achieve socialism, they just aren't there yet. I'm not well versed on European political parties, though. EDIT: If you call yourself socialist but preach socdem ideology though, then you're no socialist. I should have worded that better.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52053591]Give an example[/QUOTE] Sure. In the US, one of the most well known mainstream 'socialists' is Bernie Sanders. He calls himself a democratic-socialist, others call him a socialist, but it doesn't matter because he's spreading social democracy ideals, not socialism. I've listed some differences between the economic system below. An important thing to keep in mind is that democratic-socialism is simply socialism that is achieved in a democratic manner (as opposed to revolution or armed overthrow of government). [B](Marxist) Communism[/B] * Seeks to abolish the state, currency, class system, and property that generates profit. * Workers own and control businesses for the benefit of the public. [B]Socialism[/B] * Workers own and control business for the benefit of the public. * More social safety nets such as universal healthcare, more access to higher education, and so on. [B]Social Democracy[/B] * Private businesses still allowed to buy/sell/trade. * Promotes social and economic equality within a capitalist system. * Like socialism, may also have more social safety-nets and welfare. Social democracy is essentially just a more 'socially equal' form of capitalism.

[QUOTE=nulls;52053269]The countries you listed are social democracies, not socialist. Socialism is when businesses are owned and controlled by the public/workers for the benefit of the public. Germany, France, Belgium, etc etc all still have private business and are very much capitalist..[/QUOTE] I know. He was pretty obviously referring to policies that social democracies like my country and other European countries have implemented, though. Many people use the terms 'socialism' and 'social democracy' interchangeably man, there's no use arguing semantics like this. [editline]3rd April 2017[/editline] I mean come on. Ireland is not socialist, nor are Spain, Greece and other countries the guy listed as such in his post. I'm quite positive he just meant left wing policy in general in his original post, which is why I replied to defend the policies that countries like mine have implemented.

The right wing have fucked my countries. Britain is a shithole in half the places, with the poor getting such shit that they might as well be a subhuman race, and I recall my time in australia marked with some degree of poverty (I had a mattress, no bed) and a terribly underfunded, inefficient public school in a town with a fair few millionaires. My dad had his own business in Oz, so it wasn't like we were on the doll or anything. Shit was just expensive, and it had no right to be. Some years later, after studying politics and sociology and media; The left wing is objectively better for the largest number of people. Right wing folks are either crazy or exploiting you. No two ways about it. That said. The poster is in poor taste. shit like that don't fly after years of McCarthy

[QUOTE=nulls;52053675]Sure. In the US, one of the most well known mainstream 'socialists' is Bernie Sanders. He calls himself a democratic-socialist, others call him a socialist, but it doesn't matter because he's spreading social democracy ideals, not socialism. I've listed some differences between the economic system below. An important thing to keep in mind is that democratic-socialism is simply socialism that is achieved in a democratic manner (as opposed to revolution or armed overthrow of government). [B](Marxist) Communism[/B] * Seeks to abolish the state, currency, class system, and property that generates profit. * Workers own and control businesses for the benefit of the public. [B]Socialism[/B] * Workers own and control business for the benefit of the public. * More social safety nets such as universal healthcare, more access to higher education, and so on. [B]Social Democracy[/B] * Private businesses still allowed to buy/sell/trade. * Promotes social and economic equality within a capitalist system. * Like socialism, may also have more social safety-nets and welfare. Social democracy is essentially just a more 'socially equal' form of capitalism.[/QUOTE] remember kids every time you say democratic socialism you kill rosa luxemburg again

[QUOTE=sgman91;52050149]Here's the problem with Europe: it's a dying civilization. Sure, it's a slow and happy death, but it's dying nonetheless. They've had a stagnant economy, with essentially zero growth, for decades. They are increasingly below replacement birth rates, meaning their social programs rely on mass immigration from outside of Europe. Etc. Their system can't sustain itself in the long run.[/QUOTE] all of those problems you describe apply to /every/ modern nation china, iran, the united states, Canada, Russia, japan, etc all have a TFR of less than 2.1 that is only made up by immigration from countries whose own birth rates are rapidly falling. technology, science, and innovation in most countries are all subject to diminishing returns, every advanced economy on the planet is subject to this. all of their respective economies are steadily becoming more complex, more costly to maintain, and despite all of their technology and progress they end up having new problems to fix after the old ones When you describe Europe as a "dying civilization" - you're describing /modern civilization/ in its entirety - from the industrial revolution to today. The United States is fucked too buddy - probably moreso than other countries