[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048048]Giving up already? You're no fun.
[editline]15th October 2012[/editline]
Lol, "I don't anything to combat you with, so here are dumb ratings instead!1!"[/QUOTE]
you are the one doing personal attacks, so, what else can i contribute with? i dont want to sink to your level.
i mean, whats the point of even coming into a thread and go on with personal attacks? unless your troll baiting or something, i dunno, man.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048065]you are the one doing personal attacks, so, what else can i contribute with? i dont want to sink to your level.[/QUOTE]
You could just argue and tell me why everything I said was wrong. You're the one backing off when you're so sure you're right. I wanna know why you hate the EU so much.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048035]I think The Fox doesn't understand how democracy in every single democratic country works.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately a lot of people are ignorant of legislative and executive practices. For example believing the president of the US sets the budget 100% and determines how much we spend. Or not understanding how laws have to pass the house and senate, presidential veto, radicalism in the house, stuff like that. As an American I'm actually not 100% on how the EU/member states relationship works. I've studied the Schengen agreement and others, but the intricacies of the parliament system and independent membership elude me.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048093]You could just argue and tell me why everything I said was wrong. You're the one backing off when you're so sure you're right. I wanna know why you hate the EU so much.[/QUOTE]
the only real point i can argue with, since pretty much the rest of it are just personal attacks;
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048005]
Because THE LOBBYISTS still want the law. They're paying good money to try and get SOME kind of law passed. They can put in 100 new ACTAs if they want - that's their democratic right, as it were. It doesn't mean it's not stupid, and that most of the MEP's who control the vote don't think it's stupid.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The fox;38048036]well then, time will tell us how this will go down.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The fox;38048065]i mean, whats the point of even coming into a thread and go on with personal attacks? unless your troll baiting or something, i dunno, man.[/QUOTE]
Nothing to do with baiting you. You're making poorly thought out accusations, rating people dumb in both EU threads today, and not even giving a single logical argument about why you believe something/why they do something. It's infuriating when people play 'hit and run' 'debates' and whine when people get 'personal' when we just want to settle an argument.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048123]Nothing to do with baiting you. You're making poorly thought out accusations, rating people dumb in both EU threads today, and not even giving a single logical argument about why you believe something/why they do something. It's infuriating when people play 'hit and run' 'debates' and whine when people get 'personal' when we just want to settle an argument.[/QUOTE]
so then, why enter a thread and start going on with personal attacks? or at least trying to make me out as a conspiracy nut, when in fact, these talks and the draft being made secret are actual things of which are happening; of which is concerning to several parties in the EU? specifically those advocating a free internet.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048153]so then, why enter a thread and start going on with personal attacks? or at least trying to make me out as a conspiracy nut, when in fact, these talks and the draft being made secret are actual things of which are happening; of which is concerning to several parties in the EU?[/QUOTE]
Look back and quote the part I said you're a conspiracy nut.
Go on, I'll wait.
Secondly, we know the drafts are being made in secret. That's exactly what happened with ACTA - and the point I made is that it's not exactly unique or unusual that new law ideas are made in the hush-hush. Local, national and world legal drafts are sometimes made in this way in most countries. You're making it out that this is some big world shattering thing.
Thirdly, you're getting upset that I'm 'picking on' you, when you repeatedly say 'The EU do THIS' and 'THE EU DO THAT', when we've clearly explained it's not the EU, but a certain part of it that's been vocally working with lobbyists.
You're not using sources, you're saying all the downright illogical and out-of-the-heart ignorance about the subject that makes you look like a complete and total troll doing nothing but annoying people to death. Debate, counter arguments, make claims and back them up.
Debate means having a reason and a backbone to either make counter arguments. Don't come in to every thread whining about subject x when at the first moment you try and make a point you blindingly show ignorance. It's not my fault you don't have a thick skin to do anything but point and claim 'Omg stop trolling me'.
We've had way too many of those people on facepunch.
Look. Learn. Ask questions, bring up points - don't thread shit endlessly and act like a self-entitled slut who thinks their opinion can't be wrong.
Nothing personal, I just want a decent quality subforum that has decent debate - even if they're ignorant. Threadshitting or acting a jackass doesn't get anywhere.
Even if a bill like this goes through, people will still find a way to get round it. What is the point of wasting time and money on this shit.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048247]
Secondly, we know the drafts are being made in secret. That's exactly what happened with ACTA - and the point I made is that it's not exactly unique or unusual that new law ideas are made in the hush-hush. Local, national and world legal drafts are sometimes made in this way in most countries. You're making it out that this is some big world shattering thing.[/quote]
doesnt mean its a democractic and fair way of doing it. unless that is your vision of how it should be?
[quote]You're not using sources, you're saying all the downright illogical and out-of-the-heart ignorance about the subject that makes you look like a complete and total troll doing nothing but annoying people to death. Debate, counter arguments, make claims and back them up.[/quote]
the very top of this page has sources, i am not sure what youre talking about.
[quote]Debate means having a reason and a backbone to either make counter arguments. Don't come in to every thread whining about subject x when at the first moment you try and make a point you blindingly show ignorance. It's not my fault you don't have a thick skin to do anything but point and claim 'Omg stop trolling me'.[/quote]
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048048]Giving up already? You're no fun.
[editline]15th October 2012[/editline]
Lol, "I don't anything to combat you with, so here are dumb ratings instead!1!"
Hahahahahaha.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048035]I think The Fox doesn't understand how democracy in every single democratic country works.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048005]You're not exactly brimming with points yourself.[/quote]
not really sure what else that is, it has no relevance to the topic at hand at the very least.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048362]doesnt mean its a democractic and fair way of doing it. unless that is your vision of how it should be?
the very top of this page has sources, i am not sure what youre talking about.
not really sure what else that is, it has no relevance to the topic at hand at the very least.[/QUOTE]
corporations are people too my friend
[QUOTE=The fox;38048362]doesnt mean its a democractic and fair way of doing it. unless that is your vision of how it should be?[/QUOTE]
It's not how I'd like it at all. But laws are being enacted in the UK at least to (maybe) make lobbyists names known. But realistically it won't make much difference anyway - it only matters how elected people vote on issues. Where it comes from isn't terribly important if the law is bad.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048362]the very top of this page has sources, i am not sure what youre talking about.[/QUOTE]
Not for the news article, but for what you're saying. That quote you asked me to read? That quote you made me read and then didn't address my counter argument? I didn't even get the link to it I requested.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048362]not really sure what else that is, it has no relevance to the topic at hand at the very least.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a nice person. You'll learn to like me eventually. I wouldn't have been so annoyed if you wanted to have a sensible discussion - sprouting nonsense you clearly have no idea on about the EU doesn't make me want to help you learn.
There is a big difference in response to:
"Didn't the EU want to secretly enact ACTA? Why would they have secret discussions?"
Is different to
"I hate the EU they keep putting this shit on us and I don't know why"
Same question, but the latter we hear every day from 12 year old morons who don't want to do anything but sit in their underpants and pretend they know geopolitics. It's fucking annoying. Hate the EU if you want, but jesus, please try and being an adult about it.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048470]
Not for the news article, but for what you're saying. That quote you asked me to read? That quote you made me read and then didn't address my counter argument? I didn't even get the link to it I requested.[/quote]
first post, first link, first page.
[url]https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/ceta-replicates-acta[/url]
[quote]Same question, but the latter we hear every day from 12 year old morons who don't want to do anything but sit in their underpants and pretend they know geopolitics. It's fucking annoying. Hate the EU if you want, but jesus, please try and being an adult about it.[/quote]
More reasons I dislike the EU; None of which have anything to do with this thread tho, but since you seem to be wanting to see it..
[quote]"EU Bans testing cows and other animals for deadly diseases" - [url]http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/eu-beslut-oppnar-for-farliga-djursjukdomar_7552342.svd#article-comments[/url] "The EU is demanding that Sweden stops testing animals for deadly diseases, as they believe this infractions upon the free movement of goods within the Eurozone."
"EU Destroys 17,000 tonnes of fish and other maritime food" - [url]http://www.svt.se/nyheter/varlden/eu-forstorde-17-000-ton-fisk-och-skaldjur[/url] "17,000 tonnes of maritime food was bought up by the fishing department of the EU during 2009, only to be disposed of as waste"
"EU Superstate threatens European democracy" - [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9559937/Vclav-Klaus-warns-that-the-destruction-of-Europes-democracy-may-be-in-its-final-phase.html[/url]
"EU Threatens the sovereignity of the Internet, freedom of speech, anonomity" [url]http://www.edri.org/cleanIT[/url], [url]http://henrikalexandersson.blogspot.ch/2012/09/cleanit-annu-ett-hot-mot-natets-frihet.html?showComment=1348386367945#c3197051722305932116[/url]
"EU considering imposing further fees on Cloud based services" - [url]http://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.468522[/url] "The EU commission is opening up for further fees to be added upon cloud based service; As the already imposed fees on empty CDs, hard drives etc"
"Proposed law to outlaw holocaust denial" - [url]http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?val=537581[/url][/quote]
[QUOTE=The fox;38048501]first post, first link, first page.
[url]https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/ceta-replicates-acta[/url][/QUOTE]
I wouldn't know that, and shouldn't be expected to guess.
But thank you.
[QUOTE=leontodd;38048326]Even if a bill like this goes through, people will still find a way to get round it. What is the point of wasting time and money on this shit.[/QUOTE]
People can get around any law.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;38048519]People can get around any law.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but he means about trying to enact a new one. The EU Commission wants to ignore the ruling hard.
Fox you do know that the EU voted against ACTA.
"On 4 July 2012, the European Parliament rejected the agreement in plenary session, with 478 voting against the treaty, 39 in favour and 165 MEPs abstaining."
That's a huge fucking majority.
[QUOTE=Ereunity;38048543]Fox you do know that the EU voted against ACTA.
"On 4 July 2012, the European Parliament rejected the agreement in plenary session, with 478 voting against the treaty, 39 in favour and 165 MEPs abstaining."
That's a huge fucking majority.[/QUOTE]
This is not ACTA; This is a trading agreement with Canada, in which they are copy-pasting the worst from ACTA.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048501]More reasons I dislike the EU; None of which have anything to do with this thread tho, but since you seem to be wanting to see it..[/QUOTE]
Don't speak the lingo bro, can't comment.
4th is wrong anyway, because they've proven they want to protect Internet freedom and free speech.
And what's wrong with the 6th? Holocaust denial is a big problem.
Welp, here we go. I should research the matter more thoroughly before getting my knickers in a twist, but if this is any bit as bad as ACTA was, I'm going to protest the fuck out of it with my fellow yuropeans, like we did with ACTA!. :v:
[quote]4th is wrong anyway, because they've proven they want to protect Internet freedom and free speech.[/quote]
[quote]CleanIT (terrorism), financed by DG Home Affairs of the European Commission is duplicating much of the work of the CEO Coalition (child protection), which is financed by DG Communications Networks of the European Commission.[/quote]
DG Home affairs of the European Commission; DG Communications Networks of the European Commission. Unless the names are grossly misleading; It certainly seems that the EU is involved in such.
And that was taken from the same source.
[quote]
And what's wrong with the 6th? Holocaust denial is a big problem.[/QUOTE]
Freedom of speech; I do not see any reason as to why the EU should restrict it.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048624]DG Home affairs of the European Commission; DG Communications Networks of the European Commission. Unless the names are grossly misleading; It certainly seems that the EU is involved in such.
And that was taken from the same source.[/QUOTE]
Uuh, where in the link you gave does it say that?
[QUOTE=The fox;38048624]Freedom of speech; I do not see any reason as to why the EU should restrict it.[/QUOTE]
The Holocaust actually happened though, so they can't deny it happened because overwhelming evidence proves it actually happened.
And it's not about one person saying "It didn't happen." it's about governments refusing to accept it happened.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048661]Uuh, where in the link you gave does it say that?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.edri.org/cleanIT[/url]
It was in regard to article 4 in my quoted post.
[QUOTE=Ereunity;38048664]The Holocaust actually happened though, so they can't deny it happened because overwhelming evidence proves it actually happened.
And it's not about one person saying "It didn't happen." it's about governments refusing to accept it happened.[/QUOTE]
So? The people who say it are outright morons, of course, but you are still removing a human right; A right every man and woman is born with, from them. Should we perhaps start making laws regarding everything that we know happened; And ban anyone from questioning it, irregardless of how big of morons they present themselves to be by saying it?
[QUOTE=The fox;38048688][url]http://www.edri.org/cleanIT[/url]
It was in regard to article 4 in my quoted post.[/QUOTE]
Again, it's an EU Commission bill going to be voted on. It's NOT 'The EU', it's a part of the EU. It's unlikely to pass due to the set president in the votes.
Again, it's the ACTA people. Again, this isn't the only thing the EU Commission does, only a small part of it. You're trying to demonize the entire EU based on a few lobbyist nuts inside it. The EU Parliment and Courts have upheld the rights of citizens over those of the corporations and that looks incredibly unlikely to change anytime soon, especially as some are trying to push that Internet access is part of the Human Bill of Rights.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048717]Again, it's an EU Commission bill going to be voted on. It's NOT 'The EU', it's a part of the EU. It's unlikely to pass due to the set president in the votes.
Again, it's the ACTA people. Again, this isn't the only thing the EU Commission does, only a small part of it. You're trying to demonize the entire EU based on a few lobbyist nuts inside it. The EU Parliment and Courts have upheld the rights of citizens over those of the corporations and that looks incredibly unlikely to change anytime soon, especially as some are trying to push that Internet access is part of the Human Bill of Rights.[/QUOTE]
Then I refer to my other post; The DGs of two EU commission organs; Home Affairs of the European Union and Communcations Networks of the European Union have both expressed their interest and support in creating this bill. These are both organs of the EU; Not lobbying groups.
Though, we are starting to move away from CETA; If you want to continue discussing the EU in general, feel free to send me a PM.
[QUOTE=The fox;38048688]So? The people who say it are outright morons, of course, but you are still removing a human right; A right every man and woman is born with, from them. Should we perhaps start making laws regarding everything that we know happened; And ban anyone from questioning it, irregardless of how big of morons they present themselves to be by saying it?[/QUOTE]
We can't go into the street telling people they're 'a bunch of fucking niggers.' and standing in the street demanding they're hanged from the nearest tree.
Freedom of Speech has natural limits to protect everyone. Freedom of speech does no decree 'anyone can say anything', because people's rights can be infringed by the law itself. Every tuesday, it's 'shout nigger in Harlem' street day. Sure - you can argue that it's their right, but it's also Harlem's right not to have their own free speech restricted on Tuesday. A REALLY terrible example, yes, so don't go too deeply into that one.
The Holocaust law was proposed to stop far-right radicals using propoganda to pretend it never happened, or to absolve people from crimes. I don't believe it was going to be used to restrict questioning how many died, who died, when, why, etc. I'd have to see the bill before I comment any further, but it's an extension of the above example - not an attack on freedom.
[editline]15th October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=The fox;38048755]Then I refer to my other post; The DGs of two EU commission organs; Home Affairs of the European Union and Communcations Networks of the European Union have both expressed their interest and support in creating this bill. These are both organs of the EU; Not lobbying groups.
Though, we are starting to move away from CETA; If you want to continue discussing the EU in general, feel free to send me a PM.[/QUOTE]
Not needed. It's fairly relevant unless a mod says otherwise.
Besides, I don't trust a source that labels something terrorism :v:. I'll find a better source and maybe post again.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;38048793]We can't go into the street telling people they're 'a bunch of fucking niggers.' and standing in the street demanding they're hanged from the nearest tree.
[/quote]
In such a case, where should freedom of expression stop? Should I be allowed to say I do not approve of x? That I do not believe that y happened? Should I be allowed to investigate for myself, whether x, y or z happened?
[quote]Not needed. It's fairly relevant unless a mod says otherwise.
Besides, I don't trust a source that labels something terrorism :v:. I'll find a better source and maybe post again.[/QUOTE]
Very well, if you so insist, I have been quite more of a lurker than a poster.
[QUOTE=smurfy;38047843]It will get voted down again and life will go on[/QUOTE]
Does everyone think that? That they won't need to vote since everyone else will vote it off, possibly thereby reducing the overall quantity of negative votes?
[QUOTE=The fox;38048501]More reasons I dislike the EU; None of which have anything to do with this thread tho, but since you seem to be wanting to see it..
"EU Bans testing cows and other animals for deadly diseases" - [URL]http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt...ticle-comments[/URL] "The EU is demanding that Sweden stops testing animals for deadly diseases, as they believe this infractions upon the free movement of goods within the Eurozone."
"EU Destroys 17,000 tonnes of fish and other maritime food" - [URL]http://www.svt.se/nyheter/varlden/eu...k-och-skaldjur[/URL] "17,000 tonnes of maritime food was bought up by the fishing department of the EU during 2009, only to be disposed of as waste"
"EU Superstate threatens European democracy" - [URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nal-phase.html[/URL]
"EU Threatens the sovereignity of the Internet, freedom of speech, anonomity" [URL]http://www.edri.org/cleanIT[/URL], [URL]http://henrikalexandersson.blogspot....51722305932116[/URL]
"EU considering imposing further fees on Cloud based services" - [URL]http://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.468522[/URL] "The EU commission is opening up for further fees to be added upon cloud based service; As the already imposed fees on empty CDs, hard drives etc"
"Proposed law to outlaw holocaust denial" - [URL]http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?val=537581[/URL][/QUOTE]
Oh yes, this drivel again. I seem to recall we went over this list and I even conceded that the issue with not testing cows for a [I]very specific[/I] disease was a largely frivolous restriction, but that everything else was either subjective or almost entirely false. Things like '[I]considering[/I] imposing fees' or 'a law was [I]proposed[/I] to outlaw holocaust denial'. Hell, in the US we've had laws [I]proposed[/I] to make abortion entirely illegal, but it doesn't mean that that [I]will[/I] happen.
[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/member.php?u=10268"]The Fox[/URL] are worse than Glaber at this point.
Sit down and listen kiddo.
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