Refugees in Hollands largest center march through streets in protest for better living conditions - Polidicks

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;49294833]you know these folk haven't come from like, straw huts where they rub together flint and steel to make fire every night?[/QUOTE] Absolutely. Is this in any way relevant to the amount of luxury they can expect from us for free then? And if they WERE from straw huts, would you then be fine if we'd put them in strawhuts? No? Then don't pretend like it's an argument that counters anything, since it's completely irrelevant. Thank you.

Don't want to be here.. leave, we sure as hell don't want you here, especially those that already had enough money to support themselves back home.

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;49294833]you know these folk haven't come from like, straw huts where they rub together flint and steel to make fire every night?[/QUOTE] I don't know why the hell that would be relevant. Just because you had three cars and two houses doesn't mean you get to make demands for similar luxuries when you flee somewhere else as a refugee. They're literally being given stuff for free, and they complain that it's not enough. No one owes these people shit. They are practically robbing us at this point.

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;49294603]yeah i'm sure you'd all be really happy if you had to flee your country and the place you turn up in goes "ahaha fuck you have some gruel and a tent and stop complaining, at least you're not being shot at!" not like these people had houses, phone contracts, jobs and lives. it ain't cheap to be smuggled across the world - i'd bet a fiver a lot of these refugees worked a damn sight harder than a lot of people sneering at them down an internet forum do [editline]11th December 2015[/editline] why send the men? because men can work harder (if we follow that line). men can send the money back to pay them to smuggle the rest of the family over and get them asylum. imagine leaving your family being then being told well, you're alive, stop whinging, you don't need to contact your family?[/QUOTE] Refugees in the past used to be glad that they were safe. Refugees of today apparently prefer to go back to what is basically hell because of no wifi Lol

Do they expect we can magically transform every building into a refugee center? We are already on the edge of building a massive refugee center. [QUOTE]- Smugglers promised us that we'd be housed, in those words. We did not expect tents.[/QUOTE] And they seriously expecting houses because the [I]smugglers [/I]said that it would be?

if you're fleeing imminent death then you aren't going to fucking complain about slow wi-fi it doesn't take a genius to realize that people like this are just taking advantage of charity

don't like the country? fuck off back out of it then [I]bet you'd get better treatment in your own country eh?[/I] [editline]11th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Rumbler;49294431] - We aren't treated like humans.[/QUOTE] [B]there are homeless people in they're own country that get less than you do![/B]

[QUOTE=darth-veger;49294977]Do they expect we can magically transform every building into a refugee center? We are already on the edge of building a massive refugee center. And they seriously expecting houses because the [I]smugglers [/I]said that it would be?[/QUOTE] From what I hear, this happens a lot yes. Smugglers present Europe as an immensely rich utopia where everything is possible. This is ofcourse, to coax people into paying them the ludicrous smuggling-fee which is really the only thing that the smugglers are interested in really.

Don't like the country? you know where the border is you crossed it in the first place you ungrateful fuckers.

[QUOTE=darth-veger;49294977]Do they expect we can magically transform every building into a refugee center? We are already on the edge of building a massive refugee center. And they seriously expecting houses because the [I]smugglers [/I]said that it would be?[/QUOTE] European countries are evicting Europeans to make room for refugees and the refugees still want more and the politicians still want more refugees. This is insane.

I can see being frustrated with having to live in a tent for 75 days, especially with no end in sight and in what seems to be fairly cold conditions. If our standard for treatment of warzone refugees is "Well they aren't being actively shot or bombed" then why bother with tents at all? Put them in a fenced in field and airdrop ramen. Hey, they aren't facing imminent death anymore right? [editline]11th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Rangergxi;49295055]European countries are evicting Europeans to make room for refugees and the refugees still want more and the politicians still want more refugees. This is insane.[/QUOTE] I guarantee you the number of politicians in Europe who wanted a devastating proxy war to develop in the middle east just so they could take on thousands of refugees is somewhere between 0 and none.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295061] If our standard for treatment of warzone refugees is "Well they aren't being actively shot or bombed" then why bother with tents at all? Put them in a fenced in field and airdrop ramen. Hey, they aren't facing imminent death anymore right? [/QUOTE] Why do you make such atrocious hypotheticals. They do not add to the discussion at all. In fact, they detriment the discussion, since you're pretending again, that people who disagree with you hold these ridiculous ideas. [editline]12th December 2015[/editline] [b][offtopic][/b][QUOTE=Scot;49294853]I'm pretty sure I've lived in worse conditions than that.[/QUOTE] Wow, are you really from the Seychelles!? You're the first Seychelle person I've seen on Facepunch in all these years if you are. I've been to the Seychelles in the summer of 2014. It was lovely. Beau Vallon Beach, if you're interested :)[b][offtopic][/b]

can we get some kind of confirmation that you work as volunteer Rumbler? I really want to believe you but up until now I feel you've been using it only as a rhetorical device. The article doesn't mention WiFi, for all I know, you're pulling this out of your ass.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295061] If our standard for treatment of warzone refugees is "Well they aren't being actively shot or bombed" then why bother with tents at all? Put them in a fenced in field and airdrop ramen. Hey, they aren't facing imminent death anymore right?[/QUOTE] Thats a pretty strange thing to say, As of now you have migrants picking and choosing between European countries while in Europe. They're economic migrants at this point but with no work contract.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295061]I can see being frustrated with having to live in a tent for 75 days, especially with no end in sight and in what seems to be fairly cold conditions. If our standard for treatment of warzone refugees is "Well they aren't being actively shot or bombed" then why bother with tents at all? Put them in a fenced in field and airdrop ramen. Hey, they aren't facing imminent death anymore right?[/QUOTE] These probably aren't (and I know for a fact they aren't here in Denmark) standard shit tents, and you're basically pretending that there can be no lower standard for how these people are treated. On top of the question "Hey are they living as comfortable as they could be?" you have to ask yourself "How many people do we want to help, and how much money is the population willing to assign to this purpose?". No one (or at least very few) thought "Hey how can we makes the lives of these refugees a living hell" - they probably thought "How can we effectively house these refugees on a short notice without blowing our budget?".

[QUOTE=Rumbler;49295117]Why do you make such atrocious hypotheticals. They do not add to the discussion at all. In fact, they detriment the discussion, since you're pretending again, that people who disagree with you hold these ridiculous ideas.[/QUOTE] I'm taking the point that "They shouldn't complain about their treatment because it's better than they were getting in Syria" to it's logical conclusion. Governments spending money to house refugees should spend as absolutely as little as possible so why bother with tents?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295159]I'm taking the point that "They shouldn't complain about their treatment because it's better than they were getting in Syria" to it's logical conclusion. Governments spending money to house refugees should spend as absolutely as little as possible so why bother with tents?[/QUOTE] That is so fucking fallacious

[QUOTE=Mechanical43;49295144]can we get some kind of confirmation that you work as volunteer Rumbler? I really want to believe you but up until now I feel you've been using it only as a rhetorical device. The article doesn't mention WiFi, for all I know, you're pulling this out of your ass.[/QUOTE] Yeah tbh I don't know why someone who obviously disagrees so strongly with his governments stance on refugees would volunteer to help them. [QUOTE=Rangergxi;49295149]Thats a pretty strange thing to say, As of now you have migrants picking and choosing between European countries while in Europe. They're economic migrants at this point but with no work contract.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty strange thing to say considering it's completely off topic. [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49295157]These probably aren't (and I know for a fact they aren't here in Denmark) standard shit tents, and you're basically pretending that there can be no lower standard for how these people are treated. On top of the question "Hey are they living as comfortable as they could be?" you have to ask yourself "How many people do we want to help, and how much money is the population willing to assign to this purpose?". No one (or at least very few) thought "Hey how can we makes the lives of these refugees a living hell" - they probably thought "How can we effectively house these refugees on a short notice without blowing our budget?".[/QUOTE] Yes, I've heard from a great many people how luxurious tents can get but at the end of the day it's still a tent. Temporary housing until you can be moved to a shelter that you can atleast somewhat call yours. And obviously it's a question of budget and logistics but I'm not even suggesting that this is a spending problem. Maybe it's just a problem where the government bureaucracy isn't getting to the ears of refugees at these centers. Sympathizing with their position doesn't automatically mean I want to dump millions of dollars on them and boot out native Dutch homeowners and let refugees stay there. It means hey maybe as human beings they are frustrated with not having answers about their housing situation, concerns that could be alleviated without spending a dime and just talking to them. [editline]11th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49295169]That is so fucking fallacious[/QUOTE] Yes, it is.

And you don't think native citizens have concerns that deserve being spoken about so as to alleviate their fears?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295198]Yeah tbh I don't know why someone who obviously disagrees so strongly with his governments stance on refugees would volunteer to help them.[/quote] Personally I believe getting refugees to Denmark is an expensive and inefficient way of helping people. At the same time I believe we should spend significantly more than our current government is to help syrian refugees [I]anywhere[/I] in the world. I don't have any qualms with the refugees who get to Denmark, but in the end I don't believe this to be a viable strategy. [quote]Yes, I've heard from a great many people how luxurious tents can get but at the end of the day it's still a tent. Temporary housing until you can be moved to a shelter that you can atleast somewhat call yours. And obviously it's a question of budget and logistics but I'm not even suggesting that this is a spending problem. Maybe it's just a problem where the government bureaucracy isn't getting to the ears of refugees at these centers. Sympathizing with their position doesn't automatically mean I want to dump millions of dollars on them and boot out native Dutch homeowners and let refugees stay there. It means hey maybe as human beings they are frustrated with not having answers about their housing situation, concerns that could be alleviated without spending a dime and just talking to them.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree, tent camps should be temporary for the sake of everyone (well except the tent manufacturers, I suppose), I was just reacting to what was honestly a strawman from your side. I believe there are acceptable standards for living, and I don't think tent camps are necessarily below that. I can emphasize with the refugees frustrations, but I can also understand people who gets frustrated with the, well, "ungrateful" response.

[QUOTE=Mechanical43;49295144]can we get some kind of confirmation that you work as volunteer Rumbler? I really want to believe you but up until now I feel you've been using it only as a rhetorical device. The article doesn't mention WiFi, for all I know, you're pulling this out of your ass.[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.dichtbij.nl/zaanstreek/regionaal-nieuws/artikel/4180892/coa-reageert-op-vragen-vluchtelingenkamp-zaandam-van-sp-en-groenlinks.aspx]This article does mention the wifi complaints.[/url] [url=http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/24673807/__Wifi_uit_om_asielzoekers__.html]This article mentions a shopping mall disabling their public wifi, since refugees were massively coming to the mall to be able to have faster internet than they have in the centers[/url] I've spoken about this many times before. I can only give proof about my volunteerwork in Heumensoord, if I give away my personal identity. I'm not wiling to do that in any way, just to convince some guys on the internet on the other side of the planet. Especially since how hostile some of you are. I have 7 employees, and the last thing they need is for some internet warriors to DDOS my company website, or some other real life repercussions that my impopular opinion might have. And if I do post a picture of me in the refugeecenter. What does that prove. Maybe then I've been to the center just once to take that picture. You could still say all Ive said up to this point is made up. If anyone wants to discredit everything Ive said up to this point because I refuse to reveal my identity, then be my guest. My arguments stand and fall by their own merits.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49295259]And you don't think native citizens have concerns that deserve being spoken about so as to alleviate their fears?[/QUOTE] How did I at all suggest this. [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49295263]Personally I believe getting refugees to Denmark is an expensive and inefficient way of helping people. At the same time I believe we should spend significantly more than our current government is to help syrian refugees [I]anywhere[/I] in the world. I don't have any qualms with the refugees who get to Denmark, but in the end I don't believe this to be a viable strategy. I don't disagree, tent camps should be temporary for the sake of everyone (well except the tent manufacturers, I suppose), I was just reacting to what was honestly a strawman from your side. I believe there are acceptable standards for living, and I don't think tent camps are necessarily below that. I can emphasize with the refugees frustrations, but I can also understand people who gets frustrated with the, well, "ungrateful" response.[/QUOTE] It depends on what they are being ungrateful for. The very few people complaining about not having luxuries can be ignored and maybe a dialogue can be opened with the people who don't like the current housing situation. I'm going to be honest with you and this might be borne out of ignorance for what refugee housing actually is but I can sympathize with people being stuck there for months with no procedure and no instructions on what to do next. [editline]11th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Rumbler;49295307][url=http://www.dichtbij.nl/zaanstreek/regionaal-nieuws/artikel/4180892/coa-reageert-op-vragen-vluchtelingenkamp-zaandam-van-sp-en-groenlinks.aspx]This article does mention the wifi complaints.[/url] I've spoken about this many times before. I can only give proof about my volunteerwork in Heumensoord, if I give away my personal identity. I'm not wiling to do that in any way, just to convince some guys on the internet on the other side of the planet. Especially since how hostile some of you are. I have 7 employees, and the last thing they need is for some internet warriors to DDOS my company website, or some other real life repercussions that my impopular opinion might have. And if I do post a picture of me in the refugeecenter. What does that prove. Maybe then I've been to the center just once to take that picture. You could still say all Ive said up to this point is made up. If anyone wants to discredit everything Ive said up to this point because I refuse to reveal my identity, then be my guest. My arguments stand and fall by their own merits.[/QUOTE] So you (presumably) own a small company with 7 employees. Why do you volunteer at a refugee center when you are so transparently against what your government is doing?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295198]Yeah tbh I don't know why someone who obviously disagrees so strongly with his governments stance on refugees would volunteer to help them. [/QUOTE] Well unlike some people, I prefer to work towards a solution if I see problems instead of just sitting down behind a computer and complaining, and calling others who don't agree with me names. I volunteered at the IND (Dutch Immigration Service) about 8 years ago, because I wanted to improve integration for groups that were causing problems at the time. I became a 'buurtvader' (or neighbourhood-father) where people with problems could report to. I also actively helped people do things they were having problems to. This includes finding work, being accepted, learning their way in Dutch society, or just to provide a listening ear. The difference with me and other volunteers at many times is that they volunteer out of progressiveness. Not me. I volunteer to provide a voice towards newcomers in the Netherlands, that doesn't pamper them, or sugarcoat things. I tell them like it is. If you want to function here, then you need to adapt. If you don't, then you shouldn't expect to be very happy here. Nothing is free, you have to work for everything. It works like this for natives, but also for newcomers. Stay in your way of life, that you were used to in your country of origin, consequently not be accepted in society, consequently not find work, consequently be very poor and dependant on welfare, consequently be unaccepted even more in society, consequently end up in the criminal system. Do you want that? No? Then please accept the values of your new country. This means shaking the hand of a women, even if your religion tells you not to. This means learning the language. This means working hard. This means trying your best to contribute to society. Can't or don't want to do any of the above? I'll advise you to leave this country, because you will not find happiness here, and make things worse for natives and for people that are willing to integrate. I coached about 13 families in the 8 years that I volunteered for the IND. I helped Maroccans, Turks, people from Curacao, Polish, Bulgarian, White-Russian and Spanish families. I'm happy to report, because of my 'strict' but friendly attitude, I was often favored by the immigrants themselves. Except for one extremely islamic-religious family that was offended they'd have to shake hands with women to function here. They didn't take that into account, and chose to migrate to another country. I don't know where they went. I would give it to them straight, in a friendly way, without telling them fairytales. And that is appreciated, because you then take them seriously and actually HELP them function in a new and scary environment. The sweettalkers, try to soften it up, or present situations better or easier than they are, because they feel like being super tolerant is the progressive and moral thing to do. It's not, in practice. If I had a child, and raise them saying the whole world loves you and everyone wants the very best for you, they'd be completely unfit to function in society. I wouldn't be preparing a child properly. So then why do this to full-grown adults who have a lot of catching up to do socially, educationally and functionally in an alien society. Doesn't make sense to me. Progressive tolerance is deadly. To the welbeing of native countrymen, the immigrants that came before, and the new immigrants themselves. Because I now see the same problems starting again, with the refugeecrisis, and because I wanted to know what I'm talking about. I volunteered again, and I'm currently applying the same 'strategy' that I was before. [QUOTE=Raidyr;49295309] So you (presumably) own a small company with 7 employees. [/QUOTE] Yes I do. Started a company when I was 16. Failed miserably, became very poor. Worked endlessly and then started a company in intelligent-software. And I now have 7 full-time employees, and 4 variable positions that I am filling. It's kind of sad though, that I have to go into such depths to explain where I come from. Nobody is asking you for your life story, to validate or falsify your claims. It's just when you are critical that you have to expose yourself right? Since that's not the popular opinion to have? [b]I'd really appreciate, if you'd respond to this message substantively. I took the time to bare myself a bit more than I'm comfortable doing just to meet your criticism. You can respond to me in PM as well if you'd prefer.[/b]

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295309]How did I at all suggest this. It depends on what they are being ungrateful for. The very few people complaining about not having luxuries can be ignored and maybe a dialogue can be opened with the people who don't like the current housing situation. I'm going to be honest with you and this might be borne out of ignorance for what refugee housing actually is but I can sympathize with people being stuck there for months with no procedure and no instructions on what to do next. [/QUOTE] I thought what they were doing next was waiting for the war to be over? Isn't that why they're in Europe, to wait out the war?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49295309]How did I at all suggest this. It depends on what they are being ungrateful for. The very few people complaining about not having luxuries can be ignored and maybe a dialogue can be opened with the people who don't like the current housing situation. I'm going to be honest with you and this might be borne out of ignorance for what refugee housing actually is but I can sympathize with people being stuck there for months with no procedure and no instructions on what to do next.[/QUOTE] Well, I guess it depends on what kind of luxury problems we're talking about. Tent housing isn't viable in the long term, and they're right to protest about that - maybe it'll speed up a solution. Refugee housing is probably all over the place right now. Some people (probably most) are housed in larger centers, but we also have cases of single houses being bought to house refugees. It's hard enough (and expensive) to get an apartment in the first place, so I guess we're just using pretty much what's available right now - which is why it has even gotten to the point of tent camps in the first place.

sucks that they do this. sucks even more for the actual refugees trying to start new lives to live with idiots like this.

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49295372]I thought what they were doing next was waiting for the war to be over? Isn't that why they're in Europe, to wait out the war?[/QUOTE] For the vast majority I would assume so. The problem is how long will the war last? Months? Years? Decades? Is the current level of temporary housing going to be adequate for long-term scenarios? [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49295375]Well, I guess it depends on what kind of luxury problems we're talking about. Tent housing isn't viable in the long term, and they're right to protest about that - maybe it'll speed up a solution. Refugee housing is probably all over the place right now. Some people (probably most) are housed in larger centers, but we also have cases of single houses being bought to house refugees. It's hard enough (and expensive) to get an apartment in the first place, so I guess we're just using pretty much what's available right now - which is why it has even gotten to the point of tent camps in the first place.[/QUOTE] I guess we generally agree. When I say luxury items I mean stuff like wi-fi and certain culinary niches that I can only imagine a very small amount of refugees are actually complaining about, where as something like living in a tent for several months impacts people more generally.

the wifi is too slow? is this for fucking real?

Okay i wish to add to the subject that those questions regarding slow wifi are actually the work of the media putting words into peoples mouth. In a interview with some of the refugees, the NOS (one of the largest news shows in the Netherlands) smartly cut out the question that the reporter asked to the refugees. Right now according to some refugees who were interviewed it was said that the reporter asked "What do you wish that the government would improve here?" instead of "What do you think of the refugee shelter?". NOS has been very anti-refugee lately but there are mixed messages everywhere. [url]http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6695671/d0901762/vluchtelingen_zijn_ontevreden.html[/url] The subtitles are Dutch but they speak English, for those who can't see it they are basically complaining the food is bad, there are no TV's in their rooms and refuse to go indoors because of that, i personally don't think its fair to just say that every refugee should leave this country because around 500 of them have said bad shit like that

Is this an episode of South park It feels like an episode of South park