• Web DRM standard moves to next phase of development, FSF's Defective by Design campaign to continue
    106 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;50732978]They're just adding an extra step from ripping the raw file ([URL="http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/06/chrome-drm-download-netflix-piracy/"]A Chrome vuln let's you dump the whole video[/URL] lmao etc), while adding a lot of stupid shit like not even taking a screenshot being possible or running in your cool XBMC box[/QUOTE] You cant block screenshots, i know it appears sometimes like that but printscreen commands are hardware level meaning it will take like a day or 2 before someone just writes a program that calls it directly from the hardware level overwriting any software or careful encryption you spent decades developing...
[QUOTE=proboardslol;50738256]what's to stop someone from paying for a month subscription, writing a script which then go through each film and downloads it, and then re-uploading? They need DRM. Also, no content creator would sign the rights over to netflix without some kind of DRM protection[/QUOTE] There's a lot of reasons, and convenience is number one. What would you rather do, pay ~10$/month for on demand legal streaming of your favourite movies and shows on whatever device you want, or would you go to some site where you have to wait for the movie to download before you can watch it possibly in low quality? Turns out Netflix (and Spotify) is actually more convenient than piracy [url]https://torrentfreak.com/online-piracy-drops-in-australia-netflix-151014/[/url] [url]https://torrentfreak.com/music-piracy-continues-to-decline-thanks-to-spotify-110928/[/url] [url]http://www.macleans.ca/society/technology/netflix-ceo-says-torrent-piracy-in-canada-down-50-per-cent/[/url] Personal anecdote, but I much prefer my Tidal subscription to piracy [editline]aa[/editline] You know what music and movie DRM has done against piracy? Nothing.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;50738256]what's to stop someone from paying for a month subscription, writing a script which then go through each film and downloads it, and then re-uploading? They need DRM. Also, no content creator would sign the rights over to netflix without some kind of DRM protection[/QUOTE] Whats to stop anyone from simply not caring about that and just pay netflix and get the movies on their tv without fuzz Piracy is a distribution problem, not a finance or customer rebellion problem... People PREDOMINANTLY pirate because [B]its easier then buying the movies.[/B] Netflix is even easier and they are literally covered in peoples money. Thing is the movie industry knew this 20+ years ago, they helped develop the bittorrent protocol early on ffs, they just decided it would make them far more money to continue business as usual and they ended up being wrong...
[QUOTE=bitches;50734111]but i asked you why DRM is INHERENTLY bad, something you keep avoiding to answer[/QUOTE] The moment drm affects a legitimate customer (a ridiculously common occurrence) you are punishing a legitimate customer for buying your product when nearly 100% of the time pirating it would never impact them negatively like that. (For example: I bought a game awhile back and had issues even getting it to run in the first place specifically because of its drm while one of my friends pirated the game and completed it without issue in the time it took me to get my legitimate copy running.) On the other hand, not focusing on piracy itself and instead focusing on providing easy access and good service doesn't impact legitimate customers negatively but does negatively impact pirates since the only actual argument for piracy at that point is based on them not wanting to pay. [QUOTE=proboardslol;50738256]what's to stop someone from paying for a month subscription, writing a script which then go through each film and downloads it, and then re-uploading? They need DRM.[/QUOTE] What's to stop them from simply pirating it to begin with rather than ever paying for Netflix? You're speculating about something that's going to be an uncommon occurrence at best. If you get someone to pay for a service to begin with then unless the business drives that customer away they're likely to just keep using it so long as it's a good service at a fair price.
I find media DRM hilarious. Just plug in an Elgato or some other middleman to record the output from the PC/Cable box and then you're free to keep/distribute anything you watch on a monitor, and software DRM can't do shit about it. Same thing for music files you stream. There's realistically no way to block people from recording other than having an actual human being watch you while you watch your legally bought stuff. DRM can be easily thwarted by physical means, and even if there was some way to block recording the video/audio output by a hardware device you could just set up a camcorder in front of your monitor. The best way to combat piracy is accessibility and pricing. People pirate either due to them being poor and thus not having excess income to spend on entertainment, or because they can't easily access the content in the first place/are unable to purchase it in their country, so pirating is just easier. Products definitely need to make money but profit margins being too high can cause lost sales, and those people who couldn't afford the product might just pirate it, even though they never would have bought the product in the first place. Demos, shareware, etc. are great because it gets rid of the excuse to "try before you buy," so those small amounts of people who could both afford and access software but were unsure of their purchase now have no excuse to pirate. There will always be pirates though. Some people, often children/teens, just don't have an income for various reason and thus piracy is their preferred or only option other than just going without, and not everyone is morally upstanding enough to do that sadly.
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;50740322]I find media DRM hilarious. Just plug in an Elgato or some other middleman to record the output from the PC/Cable box and then you're free to keep/distribute anything you watch on a monitor, and software DRM can't do shit about it. Same thing for music files you stream. There's realistically no way to block people from recording other than having an actual human being watch you while you watch your legally bought stuff. DRM can be easily thwarted by physical means, and even if there was some way to block recording the video/audio output by a hardware device you could just set up a camcorder in front of your monitor. The best way to combat piracy is accessibility and pricing. People pirate either due to them being poor and thus not having excess income to spend on entertainment, or because they can't easily access the content in the first place/are unable to purchase it in their country, so pirating is just easier. Products definitely need to make money but profit margins being too high can cause lost sales, and those people who couldn't afford the product might just pirate it, even though they never would have bought the product in the first place. Demos, shareware, etc. are great because it gets rid of the excuse to "try before you buy," so those small amounts of people who could both afford and access software but were unsure of their purchase now have no excuse to pirate. There will always be pirates though. Some people, often children/teens, just don't have an income for various reason and thus piracy is their preferred or only option other than just going without, and not everyone is morally upstanding enough to do that sadly.[/QUOTE] Elgato (or any capture card for that matter) can't capture HDCP signal, such as what any Blueray player transmits. And I am sure the publishers are less concerned about camcorder quality uploads.
[QUOTE=Cold;50740862]Elgato (or any capture card for that matter) can't capture HDCP signal, such as what any Blueray player transmits. And I am sure the publishers are less concerned about camcorder quality uploads.[/QUOTE] Some active HDMI splitters/switches can work as HDCP strippers with little modification, some even without. [URL]https://hackaday.com/2015/03/12/hdmi-splitter-is-also-a-decrypter[/URL]. Same with some older flatscreen TV's that were the first to support HDCP since the decrypting IC is separate and spits out usable HDMI signal that one can break-out. Little bit more on the subject of manipulating HDCP: [url]https://hackaday.com/tag/hdcp/[/url]
[QUOTE=Van-man;50741480]Some active HDMI splitters/switches can work as HDCP strippers with little modification, some even without. [URL]https://hackaday.com/2015/03/12/hdmi-splitter-is-also-a-decrypter[/URL]. Same with some older flatscreen TV's that were the first to support HDCP since the decrypting IC is separate and spits out usable HDMI signal that one can break-out. Little bit more on the subject of manipulating HDCP: [url]https://hackaday.com/tag/hdcp/[/url][/QUOTE] Some converters "forget" to reapply HDCP too.
[QUOTE=bitches;50733435]what's so inherently evil about drm? would you be against it if it didn't impede the service given to a customer in any way? you've been giving these [I]of COURSE it's bad![/I] responses but you're not really explaining to anyone why they should agree with you[/QUOTE] Take a look at things like securom
[QUOTE=viperfan7;50742181]Take a look at things like securom[/QUOTE] you can't really compare passive drm to securom
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50747803]you can't really compare passive drm to securom[/QUOTE] They are DRM, they run code in your machine (often blackboxed code that could be doing anything) that exists solely to limit what you can do with your files and is also bound to be ineffective for it's purpose, so yes, they are comparable.
[QUOTE=eirexe;50748302]They are DRM, they run code in your machine (often blackboxed code that could be doing anything) that exists solely to limit what you can do with your files and is also bound to be ineffective for it's purpose, so yes, they are comparable.[/QUOTE] ..but streaming movies off netflix isn't your files thats why you can't download the movies, as was stated several times now and if it were so ineffective they wouldn't need it at all, now would they? it prevents your average joe from stealing the content through netflix, of course other avenues exist such as capturing GPU output, but thats an immense amount of effort to go through and this "DRM"'s goal is obviously not to stop that since you really can't. its very effective for its purpose, prevent people from directly downloading the netflix content
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748367]..but streaming movies off netflix isn't your files thats why you can't download the movies, as was stated several times now and if it were so ineffective they wouldn't need it at all, now would they? it prevents your average joe from stealing the content through netflix, of course other avenues exist such as capturing GPU output, but thats an immense amount of effort to go through and this "DRM"'s goal is obviously not to stop that since you really can't. its very effective for its purpose, prevent people from directly downloading the netflix content[/QUOTE] If you want to talk about wether or not it's actually useful, you say that your average joe won't be able to get the files and upload them, but that's not really a big issue, because your average joe has no interest in uploading them in the first place, the people that upload movies and series to the internet are not your average joe, and then another user can download the pirated copy, and have a better experience than a legitimate user. But again, this is not about DRM being ineffective, it being completely useless is just the icing on the cake, it's about DRM not being made to limit copyright infringement, because all DRM achieves is either tying people to specific platforms or harming the legitimate user, because as I have just stated, the user that pirates is more free than the user that does not.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748367]..but streaming movies off netflix isn't your files thats why you can't download the movies, as was stated several times now and if it were so ineffective they wouldn't need it at all, now would they? it prevents your average joe from stealing the content through netflix, of course other avenues exist such as capturing GPU output, but thats an immense amount of effort to go through and this "DRM"'s goal is obviously not to stop that since you really can't. its very effective for its purpose, prevent people from directly downloading the netflix content[/QUOTE] That's the thing though, it doesn't prevent them at all. It just makes it a little bit more inconvenient for the pirate, like a bump in the road.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;50749052]That's the thing though, it doesn't prevent them at all. It just makes it a little bit more inconvenient for the pirate, like a bump in the road.[/QUOTE] and thats the point, same with denuvo and similar thats why they don't tout them as uncrackable
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50750433]and thats the point, same with denuvo and similar thats why they don't tout them as uncrackable[/QUOTE] so the point is controlling how the user can acess the content they paid for while devaluing the service because pirates get a better treatment? got it [editline]21st July 2016[/editline] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWhTLvNEYbQ&feature=youtu.be&t=14m39s[/url]
[QUOTE=eirexe;50750547]so the point is controlling how the user can acess the content they paid for while devaluing the service because pirates get a better treatment? got it [editline]21st July 2016[/editline] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWhTLvNEYbQ&feature=youtu.be&t=14m39s[/url][/QUOTE] you didn't pay for the content on netflix, you pay for the right to see/stream it.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50750433]and thats the point, same with denuvo and similar thats why they don't tout them as uncrackable[/QUOTE] What's what point? Waste time and money doing something you know will fail? Meanwhile services like Netflix and Spotify continue to drive piracy rates down, not because they have some strange DRM, but because their services are way more convenient than piracy.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;50750751]What's what point? Waste time and money doing something you know will fail? Meanwhile services like Netflix and Spotify continue to drive piracy rates down, not because they have some strange DRM, but because their services are way more convenient than piracy.[/QUOTE] ..to prevent immediate leaking?
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50750836]..to prevent immediate leaking?[/QUOTE] Which in terms of movies and music, never happens with the existence of recording software. And even then you're basically just delaying it, which is something most people have patience for. It's a feelgood measure,
Even the best DRM could really only delay leaking of a movie by the time it takes to play through once to record and upload.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50750727]you didn't pay for the content on netflix, you pay for the right to see/stream it.[/QUOTE] Yes, I have the right to see, it I never said otherwise, I paid to access content on Netflix, I don't see why DRM is needed.
[QUOTE=Levelog;50750856]Even the best DRM could really only delay leaking of a movie by the time it takes to play through once to record and upload.[/QUOTE] Another reason why the best way to curb piracy of movies, shows, and music is to make it more convenient no not pirate. Something which Netflix/HBO and Spotify/Tidal are pretty good at doing
[QUOTE=eirexe;50750978]Yes, I have the right to see, it I never said otherwise, I paid to access content on Netflix, I don't see why DRM is needed.[/QUOTE] You don't see why, but clearly Netflix does. They own the content and are providing the service on their terms, and their terms include DRM. Don't like it? Then don't pay for it and stop using it.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;50752541]You don't see why, but clearly Netflix does. They own the content and are providing the service on their terms, and their terms include DRM. Don't like it? Then don't pay for it and stop using it.[/QUOTE] This is like the most asinine argument you could've made, lol. "Don't see a reason for that always on drm for your singleplayer game? Clearly the devs do!" At least try an argument that doesn't rely on the flawed and far too often misguided logic of IP owners.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;50752684]This is like the most asinine argument you could've made, lol. "Don't see a reason for that always on drm for your singleplayer game? Clearly the devs do!" At least try an argument that doesn't rely on the flawed and far too often misguided logic of IP owners.[/QUOTE] well netflix isn't a singleplayer game that you could argue you own so this is the most asinine argument you could've made lol
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50753276]well netflix isn't a singleplayer game that you could argue you own so this is the most asinine argument you could've made lol[/QUOTE] Woosh, did you hear that? That was the point going completely over your head.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;50753307]Woosh, did you hear that? That was the point going completely over your head.[/QUOTE] i can tell by your well thought out post explaining what I, or rather you, missed that you're in the right, apologies.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50753315]i can tell by your well thought out post explaining what I, or rather you, missed that you're in the right, apologies.[/QUOTE] You completely missed the point by focusing on what was literally the single least relevant part of my post. Relevant part: [QUOTE]At least try an argument that doesn't rely on the flawed and far too often misguided logic of IP owners.[/QUOTE] An example that anyone with two brain cells should have been able to understand: [QUOTE]"Don't see a reason for that always on drm for your singleplayer game? Clearly the devs do!"[/QUOTE] The point was that IP owners almost always have flawed or misguided logic behind their use of DRM. Always online singleplayer DRM being one of the most universally reviled examples of such.
but netflix owns very little of the IPs they host thus they're likely pressured into implementing the -passive- drm that noone should really have a problem with since it doesn't affect watching at all
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