Nigel Farage Was 'Tired Out' When He Made 'Romanian Neighbours', As Ukip Takes Out Full-Page Telegra
56 replies, posted
[quote]-Remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights[/quote]
and what advantage would this provide to anyone
[QUOTE=himlok;44863578]Clearly you didn't read my post, and aren't quite 'topped up' on British politics as much as you'd like to be. I said the other parties have had candidates which are racist and have said racist things.
Did you read the local manifesto? Did you actually read it with your own eyes, not someone else who has chopped and cropped it to oblivion for political advantage?[/QUOTE]
just tell me how those aren't true rather than telling me they aren't.
drbbbbbb
[QUOTE=himlok;44864043]Your argument is already crumbling. Why should I be giving evidence to defend UKIP based on the fact that [B]you think[/B] they are racist? Surely you should be giving evidence if you're labelling an entire party as racist?
A few UKIP candidates have made racist and in some cases utterly vulgar remarks, but how does that make the party racist [B]as a whole[/B]? Do you call the Lib Dems racist? Labour? Conservatives?
Really, I do disagree with things like withdrawal from European Court of Human Rights and many other UKIP policies, but simply labelling all of them as 'racist' isn't quite right to me.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't take much shit in a milkshake to make me not want to drink it.
[QUOTE=himlok;44864043]Your argument is already crumbling. Why should I be giving evidence to defend UKIP based on the fact that [B]you think[/B] they are racist? Surely you should be giving evidence if you're labelling an entire party as racist?
A few UKIP candidates have made racist and in some cases utterly vulgar remarks, but how does that make the party racist [B]as a whole[/B]? Do you call the Lib Dems racist? Labour? Conservatives?
Really, I do disagree with things like withdrawal from European Court of Human Rights and many other UKIP policies, but simply labelling all of them as 'racist' isn't quite right to me.[/QUOTE]
why don't you argue the policies that I've asked you to argue as i've asked you to at least twice now
drop the racist talking point, talk about the policies. You keep making a big deal about how no one talks about policies but when they want to you revert back to racism and how that's meaningless.
Stop.
Policies on [B]nothing[/B]
[QUOTE=himlok;44864214]The best thing about your post was you couldn't even defend your claims, or answer any of mine.. so you've suddenly tried to twist this thing around into my answering questions about policies? That's fine, because[B] your argument is still crumbling[/B].
You start off with "why dont you" instead of answering any of my points. You've failed to answer any of my points!
My first post in the thread was about the racist accusations and has carried on since. I asked if you read the 2014 local manifesto personally and you haven't answered that question.
So, lets discuss policies, after all this is a forum! So I'll put my question to you before we discuss policies, have you read the 2014 local manifesto? If so, what do you think about decision making being given to communities? What do you think about UKIP's policy to protect green space and opposing HS2?[/QUOTE]
I have not read the local manifesto. I don't need to. They have plenty of official party talking points publicly available that I vehemently disagree with.
Green policies? They have opnely stated in their 2013 energy documented presented in September 2013, that they would reduce the overall "green" energy of the country and increase its reliance on coal power.
[QUOTE]The party's official energy policy document, which was published last September, draws attention to the EU's target for generating 15% of energy from renewable sources by 2020, and attacks the government for promoting wind turbines to meet it because "the net reductions in CO2 emissions are trivial or zero". However, this claim is based on a pamphlet published by Lord Lawson's lobby group for climate change sceptics, the Global Warming Policy Foundation, even though it was found by researchers at Imperial College to contain fundamental flaws, including serious underestimates about the level of emissions cuts.[/QUOTE]
You keep making this about race, but you said this earlier. I am answering your points. I am talking to you about the topic you said is "what matters here folks".
[QUOTE=himlok;44862926]For example, watch the video I posted above. Pat Condell can be over the top, but that in video alone he makes solid points about the BBC.
Do you watch Sunday Politics, or any other show where UKIP get a bit of coverage? They are lambasted with questions about "candidate said X, candidate said Y" rather than grilling them on policy, and policy is what matters here folks.[/QUOTE]
If you don't defend all their policies which ones do you defend and which ones do you dislike?
Policies on legal
1) Immigration out of control
Debatable. Immigration is key to growing economies like yours and shutting the doors to certain ethnic groups(I'm looking at you romanians) is not really an effective method of fixing things.
2) That's basically an argument based on racism. How do you not see that? "Most criminal nationality". Oh, so is that because of the shitty standards of life they may be living in or is it because they're romanians? Either way, crimes are being blamed on them as a race. Not as people, but as a race.
3) Green spaces under attack. I'm not 100% clear on what the british term Green Spaces means in your context, but further on down the manifesto it says opposing wind farms, HS2(high speed rail is not a bad thing) and "excessive"(what does this mean? It's an arbitrary term for them to decide, leaving it vague lets people put what they want here, rather than what UKIP will put there).
4) Labour lied etc, I don't think an attack on another party is ever a good way to make yourself look better.
[QUOTE]• Council tax should be as low as possible
• Immigration must be controlled to relieve pressure on our health,
education, housing and welfare services
• Green spaces should be protected - we oppose excessive
housing development, wind farms and HS2
• We need more police on the streets, cracking down on crime and
anti-social behaviour
• Councils should cut highly paid council executives, not front-line
staff and services
• Real decision-making should be given to local communities
• Money should be used for local services, not the EU, foreign aid
and foreign wars[/QUOTE]
Many of these sound fine to be honest. But, I don't particularly believe this is what they will act like with power.
And what does it mean to "Put more power in the community"? Municipal governments exist for a reason, and unless I'm unaware of some british conditions, are able to operate under some relative autonomy.
HS2 means faster trains.
[QUOTE=himlok;44862869][video=youtube;jxNmkKJ3kuE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNmkKJ3kuE[/video][/QUOTE]
This guy is smart but his [I]Us vs them[/I] attitude is what causes ethnic cleansings and such.
[QUOTE=himlok;44864729]
2) Again, you're right, as the common quote from UKIP is "95% of ATM crime in London is caused by Romanians" - and I don't agree with targeting just the Romanians, because we don't ever hear UKIP screaming about Asian's being the ones who run peado rings, but I think they are making a general statement that a lot of organised crime is caused by foreign immigrants.
[/QUOTE]
You're strawmanning here. HumanAbyss clearly says it as though for all people from these sorts of countries, with Romanians used as an example of prejudices. claimed to provide considerable immigrants who are bound to be criminals.
Essentially you've just reiterated your point without adding anything. I point this out because this is the significant factor that highlights UKIP as racist and you haven't justified it one bit, mostly because you can't.
UKIP is nomark.
[QUOTE=himlok;44864811]Sorry - but I'm sure you still get my point about UKIP honing on the Romanians for ATM crime, but not other types of crime committed by a particular set of people, however I think in that instance UKIP are just making a general point that serious crime itself is often carried out by people from outside of Britain, who are inside Britain. How about that?[/QUOTE]
"Foreigners create crime" is still racist. It's flat out xenophobic.
UKIP will not reduce crime rates.
[QUOTE=himlok;44864831][B][I][U]It's pointing out the obvious.[/U][/I][/B][/QUOTE]
[quote]ATM crimes
The claim that 90% of crime at ATMs (or cash machines) is the work of Romanian gangs has often been repeated in the press as far back as early 2012.
It can be traced back to DCI Paul Barnard, then head of the Dedicated Cheque and Plastic Crime Unit (DCPCU) – a police unit run in partnership with banks and financial services companies. DCI Barnard told ITV1’s ‘Fraud Squad’ programme that:
“The fact is 92 per cent of all ATM fraud we see in this country is committed by Romanian nationals.”
We spoke to the DCPCU hoping to find out more, but were told that DCI Barnard was no longer head of the unit, and that no further details were held on this particular claim.
Although a spokesperson did tell us that the figure was based on “police intelligence at the time”, he also said that no statistics were available on the issue.
What we can tell from this is that the Express has been a little unfair to Bulgarians: according to the source of the claim, it is Romanian nationals alone who are responsible for 92% of ATM fraud.
But there are many unanswered questions in relation to this statistic. We don’t know what time period it refers to, and whether more up-to-date figures might show a decrease, and whether it is based on anecdotal evidence, or a more thorough review of the problem.
Despite the popularity that this claim has enjoyed in the press, more publicly-available research would be needed to properly assess its accuracy.
28,000 serious offenders?
The second part of the Express’s claim focuses on the number of Romanians arrested for “serious crimes”.
Again, this statistic has featured more than once in newspaper articles on the subject, and dates from earlier this year.
The source is data that was released in response to a Freedom of Information request by the Metropolitan Police. According to this, there were 27,725 arrests of Romanian nationals in the five years covering the period 2008 to 2012. (In fact, owing to a change in recording methodology, data for 2008 only covers the months April to December, so may underestimate the total for this year.)
While the headline number itself is accurate – only Polish nationals were arrested more frequently in this period – the Express’s interpretation leaves a little to be desired.
This is because the data does not relate only to “serious” crimes, but covers all arrests on suspicion of any number of crimes. In fact, the figures separate out the most serious offences, such as murder, rape and other sexual offences, burglary, robbery and other violent offences. These accounted for under a fifth of all arrests, with the remaining 22,332 falling under the ‘other offences’ category.
It’s also worth remembering that these figures relate to arrests where the person is suspected of having committed a crime, and not the numbers charged, let alone found guilty, of these offences.
Conclusion
While both parts of the Express’s claim on the prevalance of Romanian crime in the UK have some evidence underpinning them, both need to be carefully understood. A former head of the police unit tasked with tackling ATM crime has indeed estimated that 92% of fraud at cash machines is committed by Romanian nationals (although the Express also threw Bulgarian nationals into the mix), we don’t know the basis for this assertion, nor whether or not it still applies.
Similarly, almost 28,000 Romanians have been arrested in the past five years according to Metropolitan Police figures, but only a small fraction of these were on suspicion of “serious” offences.[/quote]
[url]https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanians_cash_machine_crime-29254[/url]
Yeah well unfortunately that point was probably bullshit anyway.
[editline]21st May 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=himlok;44864831][B][I]It's pointing out the obvious[/I][/B] as foreign crime in UK is quite a big issue. Do you think we should just brush it under the mat and ignore it for another generation?
[I]Definition of racism in English:
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races[/I]
So how is that saying "Foreigners cause crime" is racist, at all?[/QUOTE]
[quote]Foreigners cause crime[/quote]
[quote]ualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race[/quote]
Too late to debating UKIP at 3:26am! :)
[QUOTE=himlok;44864866]Do those arrest figures not surprise you in any way?[/QUOTE]
you mean do large numbers of largely impoverished people committing crimes surprise me? no
[editline]20th May 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=himlok;44864831][B][I]It's pointing out the obvious[/I][/B] as foreign crime in UK is quite a big issue. Do you think we should just brush it under the mat and ignore it for another generation?
[I]Definition of racism in English:
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races[/I]
So how is that saying "Foreigners cause crime" is racist, at all?[/QUOTE]
No. I didn't say that. But you fight crime. You deal with crime. You don't try and say that a race is at fault for it. You don't point fingers. You just simply get fucking to it.
This is finger pointing. This is xenophobia
dribb
[QUOTE=himlok;44864887]My last point then - what gives poor people the right to go to a better country and cause crime?[/QUOTE]
Poor people don't just "commit crime" or go to another country to go "commit crime". They go seeking a better life, or fleeing a worse one. When they find that they're not in a utopia that wants to help them in a serious way, and in fact there's even a general hatred of them. What do you expect will happen?
Why do you think poor people commit crime? Why do you think poor people want to be in a place that helps them not be poor? Why do you think poor people in a poor environment with little legitimate options will be able to do much better than crime? Do you think poor people are poor due to some element of their heritages?
[QUOTE=himlok;44864887]My last point then - what gives poor people the right to go to a better country and cause crime?[/QUOTE]
What gives people with a decent quality of life the right to tell those people to fuck off before action on principle because they'll [I]"bring down the country and our national values!"[/I]
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;44864914]fuck off because they'll [I]"bring down the country and our national values!"[/I][/QUOTE]
Does the UKIP think all Romanians are Roma?
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44864918]Does the UKIP think all Romanians are Roma?[/QUOTE]
What.
blarb
[QUOTE=himlok;44864942]You must have absolutely no idea what the average British person thinks, or what is going on in Britain right now, especially the bigger metropolitan areas.
"When they find that they're not in a utopia that wants to help them" - I'm sorry, what? Whoever said United Kingdom is utopia for all to come and get loads of help? You come here to work hard and earn your cash, that's how it works. Just because it wasn't the dream lifestyle whoever thought it up, it doesn't give people a right to resort to crime. Simple!
[editline]21st May 2014[/editline]
You clearly don't understand how countries work, do you? It's not all like the internet where one simply joins a server and 'has a go'. If you go to a country and are told to have some skills before you go there, it seems perfectly reasonable. It isn't racist.[/QUOTE]
The UK should be a place where people should be allowed to come here and prosper given effort. Noone is suggesting they have right to resort to crime. They have a right to not be prejudiced for being foreign from the countries you see as more likely to provide criminal immigrants - if you truly think this for countries like France and Germany too, frankly you're a pillock, so that probably means you have racist views.
And insulting me by implication? Really? At least have the balls to do full on Ad Hominem. Now you're just championing an elitist viewpoint, as though there is no value to anyone who is unskilled, and they can just rot in their shitholes.
Again, there would be no effective change except injustice were this suggested change to take effect.
It's true, I am Romanian and I constantly fight the urge to steal things. get drunk, and squat. I cannot pass by a construction site without getting feverish. It is a real danger, props to this man for bringing it to the surface.
[QUOTE=himlok;44864942]You must have absolutely no idea what the average British person thinks, or what is going on in Britain right now, especially the bigger metropolitan areas.[/QUOTE]
Well, according to what the average UKIP voter keeps repeating, I don't think it really matters what the average British person thinks. But, no, let's roll with that.
I'm a British-born white male, who is what would probably be termed by the media as "working class". I am *technically* unemployed, and I live in Manchester. That's pretty goddamn average metropolitan, lying also on Industrial bygone.
What do I think of UKIP schtick? It's a load of xenophobic bullshit. Foreigners commit crime? Cool. So do nationals. But because they're foreign it's totally badder, right? Nope.
I was watching Newsnight last night when they had some interviews with UKIP supporters. One particular guy appeared.. What were his words? "This government is making me racist. Immigrants are taking our jobs and this has to stop." (Paraphrased, but all came out of his mouth). This is the average UKIP voter. A man who proclaims himself to be "working class", and has literally no idea what the fuck he's talking about, turning to UKIP and against the current government to attempt to justify his own xenophobia. Oh yeah, and he hated the EU too. For no real legitimate reason.
There is a point where the average Briton goes from a disdain of the current government (I don't like it either) and the EU (debatable), to becoming flat-out xenophobic nationalists. UKIP panders to xenophobes. If you are trying to proclaim that the majority of Britons are xenophobes, then it's a good thing that people outside the country don't know what the average Briton thinks, because that's absolutely terrible.
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