An SAS Soldier who kept a pistol from Falklands War as a trophy gets 15 months in prison
295 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Streecer;50148587]shitty laws that protect thousands of people from gun violence every year lol[/QUOTE]
Different gun cultures as said, those laws wouldn't do jack here in the US.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glent;50148815]i'm glad you decided to go into a thread about a case in the united kingdom and talk about how it's bullshit because american gun culture is different[/QUOTE]
I don't see how anyone can be ok with a sentence like this for something that little. Especially for someone who fought for their queen and country.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50145755]i'm pretty sure that the fact he had loads of guns (half a dozen separate firearms) and ammo as well makes this more nuanced than what you're trying to portray here. remember he had expanding rounds as well, which i'm pretty sure are not things that soldiers should be using
if he had a single gun and no ammo, then he'd would have been let off (like in other similar cases). the fact he had a small arsenal is why he went to prison[/QUOTE]
Arsenal my hairy ass. He had less guns and less ammunition than I do, and he's going to prison? Fucking facists.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Saturn V;50147950]yeah well the thing is guns are designed to kill[/QUOTE]
So?
[QUOTE=Glent;50148815]i'm glad you decided to go into a thread about a case in the united kingdom and talk about how it's bullshit because american gun culture is different[/QUOTE]
People go into threads all the time and talk about how America is a big barbaric wild west shootout the moment "Gun" and "US" are mentioned in the same title. I'm all for understanding the culture but come on.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50148813]I'm ok with making guns harder to get, but the problem I have is with making them nearly impossible to get without a full anal probe, and then putting these ridiculous punishments on people who most likely weren't going to murder anyone. and basing said ridiculous laws on guns simply because they look threatening. Some gun laws can save lives, but when you start sentencing people to months in prison for possessing some guns and ammo, you have to wonder if you are really doing anything to stop gun crime.[/QUOTE]
So it's bad that they're doing things to enforce their gun laws? I'm sure it would be totally better if someone broke a law and had an illegal gun and the law just went "oh you had an illegal gun but you say you weren't going to shoot anyone so it's okay we'll let you go". What's the point of having gun laws if they're not going to have punishments if you break them?
[QUOTE=simkas;50148872]So it's bad that they're doing things to enforce their gun laws? I'm sure it would be totally better if someone broke a law and had an illegal gun and the law just went "oh you had an illegal gun but you say you weren't going to shoot anyone so it's okay we'll let you go". What's the point of having gun laws if they're not going to have punishments if you break them?[/QUOTE]
It's bad if he's going to lose a year of his fucking life because he wanted a memorial of his service. and I didn't say it's bad for them to enforce their laws, it's just bad that they are being total dicks about it, and people are supporting the dicks.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
But seriously, do you really think over a year is acceptable for what little crime he has committed?
[QUOTE=Megadave;50148817]Different gun cultures as said, those laws wouldn't do jack here in the US.[/QUOTE]
yes this would, if you enacted them sooner.
i was always amazed at how american posters use their mental gymnastics to try and convince you that gun laws are bad because guns are part of american culture.
you have those guns because your lawmakers didn't think shit through, but then, instead of feeling apologetic about your own country's past (and continuous) mistake, you actually defend and are proud of the fact
you have loads of guns. you have loads of gun violence as a result. your police force is highly militarized and aggressive as a result, thus leading to a fucking huge number of police-related fatalities. reaching in your pocket is seen as an act of aggression and WILL get you killed in front of a police officer. this, by extension, leads to a distrust of the police. this further leads to even more aggression and overall tension between law enforcement and citizens.
there are so many problems that are the direct by-products of having a fuckload of guns and i've just touched the tip of the iceberg.
compare this to literally, the only pro in having a lot of guns -- you can defend yourself in case of attack. maybe. probably not because life isn't a movie and you aren't a hero. and even that pro has a big problem in itself - who even wants to live in a society mirroring the wild west where you have to carry a gun for protection because criminals have access to readily available firearms and ammunition?
[QUOTE=Melnek;50148908]yes this would, if you enacted them sooner.
i was always amazed at how american posters use their mental gymnastics to try and convince you that gun laws are bad because guns are part of american culture.
you have those guns because your lawmakers didn't think shit through, but then, instead of feeling apologetic about your own country's past (and continuous) mistake, you actually defend and are proud of the fact
you have loads of guns. you have loads of gun violence as a result. your police force is highly militarized and aggressive as a result, thus leading to a fucking huge number of police-related fatalities. reaching in your pocket is seen as an act of aggression and WILL get you killed in front of a police officer. this, by extension, leads to a distrust of the police. this further leads to even more aggression and overall tension between law enforcement and citizens.
there are so many problems that are the direct by-products of having a fuckload of guns and i've just touched the tip of the iceberg.
compare this to literally, the only pro in having a lot of guns -- you can defend yourself in case of attack. maybe. probably not because life isn't a movie and you aren't a hero. and even that pro has a big problem in itself - who even wants to live in a society mirroring the wild west where you have to carry a gun for protection because criminals have access to readily available firearms and ammunition?[/QUOTE]
Ok, let's say we do enact strict ass gun laws. How do we enforce them without having practically a full fledged revolution? Lots of people are going to defend themselves if you go door to door confiscating guns. On top of that the criminals who already have guns won't be affected on bit, because they already don't give a shit about the law.
If you want to propose how exactly you think it should be done, then please do so. I'm all ears.
If the article didnt mention that he was an SAS soldier, it wouldn't probably even be news and nobody would care.
Law is law and it is equal to everyone.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50148932]Ok, let's say we do enact strict ass gun laws. How do we enforce them without having practically a full fledged revolution? Lots of people are going to defend themselves if you go door to door confiscating guns. On top of that the criminals who already have guns won't be affected on bit, because they already don't give a shit about the law.
If you want to propose how exactly you think it should be done, then please do so. I'm all ears.[/QUOTE]
That's his point. Now, it wouldn't do shit and cause more problems than good. If the laws were in place before everyone and their mother had a gun, it would have helped a lot.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megadave;50148901]It's bad if he's going to lose a year of his fucking life because he wanted a memorial of his service. and I didn't say it's bad for them to enforce their laws, it's just bad that they are being total dicks about it, and people are supporting the dicks.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
But seriously, do you really think over a year is acceptable for what little crime he has committed?[/QUOTE]
If you don't make the punishment for breaking the law strict, no one's going to follow the law. The law is the law, it doesn't matter if you're some low-life or a badass SAS commando who has done a huge service to his country. And, again, if he wanted the pistol as a memorial, he had plenty of opportunity to make it actually legal and he didn't need to keep a whole bunch of bullets alongside it.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50148932]Ok, let's say we do enact strict ass gun laws. How do we enforce them without having practically a full fledged revolution? Lots of people are going to defend themselves if you go door to door confiscating guns. On top of that the criminals who already have guns won't be affected on bit, because they already don't give a shit about the law.
If you want to propose how exactly you think it should be done, then please do so. I'm all ears.[/QUOTE]
not my point at all
it's too late to enact any laws because you guys are so entrenched in the belief that your guns make your life better, or at least, don't make it worse. i just want to understand why you don't see your lack of gun laws as a tragic mistake, but rather as something to parade and be proud of.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50148955]not my point at all
it's too late to enact any laws because you guys are so entrenched in the belief that your guns make your life better, or at least, don't make it worse. i just want to understand why you don't see your lack of gun laws as a tragic mistake, but rather as something to parade and be proud of.[/QUOTE]
America doesn't have a "lack" of gun laws at all. The existing ones are enforced poorly by some government agencies, however.
As a western european, when it comes to gun laws, I consider America's to be more sane than the UK's. However this speaks nothing about the quality of the enforcement of the laws.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;50148275]I know that US soldiers do have a habbit of sneaking trophies back home though. I don't think it was any different with this guy, I doubt the Brits are like "take whatever you can carry lads!"[/QUOTE]
Not allowed to unless under very mitigating circumstances, you can however take deactivated weapons away but there's A LOT of paper work involved and even then they still have be be 're' deactivated to 2008 UK standards.
A funny anecdote i was told from someone who served int he Falklands as a Colour Sergeant in the Royal Marines
At the end of the conflict a lot of our boys took discarded items from Port Stanley and it's surrounding areas. Not a case of taking items of living or dead enemy combatants, just picked up off the pile of POW's discarded stuff nothing personal. A bloody great load of of guns were taken despite everyone explicitly being warned not to.
While on the troop ship coming back word was passed around from the higher ups that every single weapon being brought back as a war trophy was breaking the law and it they'd be 'Well and truly Royally Fucked beyond any and all Comprehension' when they found any culprits.
By the next morning nearly everyone with an offending item had somehow 'lost' their trophy overboard during the night all within sight of the UK coastline. Throughout the night all you could hear was splashes around the ship as someone else tossed another weapon overboard. The 'unofficial' account being that every single one of his men baring 20 or so had something they shouldn't have, leaving 100 guys sneaking a weapon of some sort in right up until the last second when they thought better of it.
And this was just 1 Company on 1 ship :v:
You guys have to remember that he took this gun when he was explicitly barred from doing so, along with ammo (hollowpoint bullets are banned in warfare so why the fuck did a soldier have them?) that could be used in the gun
i don't see how its really that unfair when he knowingly broke the law and the story he gave isn't really coherent
this is a country where guns are extremely restricted and only few people should be allowed to have access to them. this isn't america and we don't want it becoming america either, so we're having guns banned here and we're prosecuting people who break these laws because that is what works for us here
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50145503]I would be more sympathetic if he didn't have the ammunition, though 15 months still sounds like too much.[/QUOTE]
"I would be more sympathetic if he didn't have the ammunition"
Why exactly is that a qualifier for your sympathy? The fact that he's been jailed for owning a pistol is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he had ammo or not. The dude served in the army for 22 damn years, not to mention your gun laws are dumb as hell. At the very worst he should have had the gun/ammo taken away.
It bothers me how y'all treat people who just want to have a gun as violent criminals.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50148955]not my point at all
it's too late to enact any laws because you guys are so entrenched in the belief that your guns make your life better, or at least, don't make it worse. i just want to understand why you don't see your lack of gun laws as a tragic mistake, but rather as something to parade and be proud of.[/QUOTE]
The total deaths from guns from 2013 alone were 33,169. 1.3% of American deaths are related to firearms.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States[/url]
The total deaths from heart disease in the US in one year generally leads to 610,000 deaths. 25% of American deaths relate to heart disease.
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/heart-disease.htm[/url]
To be honest, gun deaths are like a drop in the ocean compared to the other things in this country killing people. Want to reduce gun death? We gotta invest more in healthcare, and public education. For fucks sake, at least 2/3rds of the US gun deaths are from suicides to begin with, if that isn't indicative of a mental health issue in this country then I don't know what is.
Oh well then, he served the military for 22 years. Obviously he must have immunity. :speechless:
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149538]"I would be more sympathetic if he didn't have the ammunition"
Why exactly is that a qualifier for your sympathy? The fact that he's been jailed for owning a pistol is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he had ammo or not. The dude served in the army for 22 damn years, not to mention your gun laws are dumb as hell. At the very worst he should have had the gun/ammo taken away.
It bothers me how y'all treat people who just want to have a gun as violent criminals.[/QUOTE]
Because guns are (largely) illegal in the UK, almost everyone wants them to remain illegal. The fact he had ammo shows to me it was more than just something he kept to remember the conflict and that means he gets less sympathy from me.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50149547]The total deaths from guns from 2013 alone were 33,169. 1.3% of American deaths are related to firearms.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States[/url]
The total deaths from heart disease in the US in one year generally leads to 610,000 deaths. 25% of American deaths relate to heart disease.
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/heart-disease.htm[/url]
To be honest, gun deaths are like a drop in the ocean compared to the other things in this country killing people. Want to reduce gun death? We gotta invest more in healthcare, and public education. For fucks sake, at least 2/3rds of the US gun deaths are from suicides to begin with, if that isn't indicative of a mental health issue in this country then I don't know what is.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget the huge number of gun deaths which are gang-on-gang related shootings with illegally obtained guns that no amount of laws will stop.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50149547]The total deaths from guns from 2013 alone were 33,169. 1.3% of American deaths are related to firearms.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States[/url]
The total deaths from heart disease in the US in one year generally leads to 610,000 deaths. 25% of American deaths relate to heart disease.
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/heart-disease.htm[/url]
To be honest, gun deaths are like a drop in the ocean compared to the other things in this country killing people. Want to reduce gun death? We gotta invest more in healthcare, and public education. For fucks sake, at least 2/3rds of the US gun deaths are from suicides to begin with, if that isn't indicative of a mental health issue in this country then I don't know what is.[/QUOTE]
I think its more indicative of the fact that gun suicides are far more lethal than other suicide attempts. Just because gun deaths are a 'drop in the ocean' doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned, given that a 'drop in the ocean' is still a vast amount of premature deaths.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50148908]yyou have loads of guns. you have loads of gun violence as a result. your police force is highly militarized and aggressive as a result, thus leading to a fucking huge number of police-related fatalities. reaching in your pocket is seen as an act of aggression and WILL get you killed in front of a police officer. this, by extension, leads to a distrust of the police. this further leads to even more aggression and overall tension between law enforcement and citizens.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, dude. I don't even know where to begin on how wrong what you just said is.
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149568]Don't forget the huge number of gun deaths which are gang-on-gang related shootings with illegally obtained guns that no amount of laws will stop.[/QUOTE]
Not in the US where there are too many guns to control. In the UK, as it turns out, where we have properly restricted guns before it got out of hand, gangs largely do not use guns, even if they are able to obtain them. Sorry that your country got fucked by the 2nd amendment. It is why I prefer uncodified constitutions, but quite frankly, the UK is fine without gun rights maniacs for now.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50149565]Because guns are (largely) illegal in the UK, almost everyone wants them to remain illegal. The fact he had ammo shows to me it was more than just something he kept to remember the conflict and that means he gets less sympathy from me.[/QUOTE]
Once again, [i]why do you care[/i]
It's not like he was a hardened fucking criminal. It's not like he was shooting up grannies in retirement villages. Something can still be a memento/trophy and useful at the same time. My first black powder rifle I built myself, and it's largely a trophy. I keep it mounted on my wall, because it's beautiful. But you know what? I own the means to make it shoot, and I use it for target shooting and hunting. That doesn't make it LESS of a trophy.
Not only that but like it's already been pointed out, you have no idea that those bullets were specifically for that gun. He could have had another 9mm firearm the bullets were for.
Also "127 rounds" is laughable. Like I mean really holy shit, 127? I use more 9mm than that in an hour at the range.
Your gun laws are dumb, and the fact that they got an armed forces veteran thrown in jail over a trophy peashooter and a handful of bullets only serves to highlight that fact.
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149538]"I would be more sympathetic if he didn't have the ammunition"
Why exactly is that a qualifier for your sympathy? The fact that he's been jailed for owning a pistol is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he had ammo or not. The dude served in the army for 22 damn years, not to mention your gun laws are dumb as hell. At the very worst he should have had the gun/ammo taken away.
It bothers me how y'all treat people who just want to have a gun as violent criminals.[/QUOTE]
How the fuck does the fact that he served his country make the law apply to him differently? In fact, I'd say the fact that he served his country makes it even worse, because he actually knows how to use it and if he wanted to do some bad shit, he could do some really bad shit and besides, he of all people should fucking know better than to do this.
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149594]Once again, [i]why do you care[/i]
It's not like he was a hardened fucking criminal. It's not like he was shooting up grannies in retirement villages. Something can still be a memento/trophy and useful at the same time. My first black powder rifle I built myself, and it's largely a trophy. I keep it mounted on my wall, because it's beautiful. But you know what? I own the means to make it shoot, and I use it for target shooting and hunting. That doesn't make it LESS of a trophy.
Not only that but like it's already been pointed out, you have no idea that those bullets were specifically for that gun. He could have had another 9mm firearm the bullets were for.
Also "127 rounds" is laughable. Like I mean really holy shit, 127? I use more 9mm than that in an hour at the range.
Your gun laws are dumb, and the fact that they got an armed forces veteran thrown in jail over a trophy peashooter and a handful of bullets only serves to highlight that fact.[/QUOTE]
far dumber to hold veterans above the law
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149594]Once again, [i]why do you care[/i]
It's not like he was a hardened fucking criminal. It's not like he was shooting up grannies in retirement villages. Something can still be a memento/trophy and useful at the same time. My first black powder rifle I built myself, and it's largely a trophy. I keep it mounted on my wall, because it's beautiful. But you know what? I own the means to make it shoot, and I use it for target shooting and hunting. That doesn't make it LESS of a trophy.
Not only that but like it's already been pointed out, you have no idea that those bullets were specifically for that gun. He could have had another 9mm firearm the bullets were for.
Also "127 rounds" is laughable. Like I mean really holy shit, 127? I use more 9mm than that in an hour at the range.
Your gun laws are dumb, and the fact that they got an armed forces veteran thrown in jail over a trophy peashooter and a handful of bullets only serves to highlight that fact.[/QUOTE]
trophies generally aren't deadly weapons???
127 is not a fucking handful, you could harm or kill a very large number of people with that ammunition
[QUOTE] He could have had another 9mm firearm the bullets were for.[/QUOTE]
but he didn't? you're being intentionally misleading and dishonest to try and portray this as some kind of unreasonable response
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50149573]I think its more indicative of the fact that gun suicides are far more lethal than other suicide attempts. Just because gun deaths are a 'drop in the ocean' doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned, given that a 'drop in the ocean' is still a vast amount of premature deaths.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps we should mandate that all newly-manufactured cars have speed governors installed, to prevent them from going faster than 65mph. Road accidents are behind more deaths than gun violence, after all.
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149594]Once again, [i]why do you care[/i]
It's not like he was a hardened fucking criminal. It's not like he was shooting up grannies in retirement villages. Something can still be a memento/trophy and useful at the same time. My first black powder rifle I built myself, and it's largely a trophy. I keep it mounted on my wall, because it's beautiful. But you know what? I own the means to make it shoot, and I use it for target shooting and hunting. That doesn't make it LESS of a trophy.
Not only that but like it's already been pointed out, you have no idea that those bullets were specifically for that gun. He could have had another 9mm firearm the bullets were for.
Also "127 rounds" is laughable. Like I mean really holy shit, 127? I use more 9mm than that in an hour at the range.
Your gun laws are dumb, and the fact that they got an armed forces veteran thrown in jail over a trophy peashooter and a handful of bullets only serves to highlight that fact.[/QUOTE]
I care because guns are illegal, and I don't want anyone without a the proper checks (and no, being a former soldier does NOT count as a check) having a gun. Laws need to be enforced. Our gun laws save a large amount of lives and make everyone feel a whole lot safer given that almost all criminals will not have a gun, and police are less inclined to act violently due to the lack of guns.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;50149619]Perhaps we should mandate that all newly-manufactured cars have speed governors installed, to prevent them from going faster than 65mph. Road accidents are behind more deaths than gun violence, after all.[/QUOTE]
Cars are used for a lot of things. Guns are used for killing, whether of yourself, wildlife, innocent people or home invaders. They aren't comparable at all. We don't want your gun laws, and for good reason.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50149580]Not in the US where there are too many guns to control. In the UK, as it turns out, where we have properly restricted guns before it got out of hand, gangs largely do not use guns, even if they are able to obtain them. Sorry that your country got fucked by the 2nd amendment. It is why I prefer uncodified constitutions, but quite frankly, the UK is fine without gun rights maniacs for now.[/QUOTE]
Yes let's go ahead and compare your 'successful' gun laws with America's and ignore the fact that:
The UK has a population less than 20% of America's
The UK shares no connected land border with any nation
The UK is an isolated island state with a relatively small border which is easily monitored and policed
The UK has a population of sheep that have accepted the fact that they live in a nanny state and seem to enjoy their near constant violations of privacy in the name of 'security'
The UK does not have a lawless wasteland nation near enough to it that shit spills over
The UK has a much less diverse population compared to America
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50149538]"I would be more sympathetic if he didn't have the ammunition"
Why exactly is that a qualifier for your sympathy? The fact that he's been jailed for owning a pistol is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he had ammo or not. The dude served in the army for 22 damn years, not to mention your gun laws are dumb as hell. At the very worst he should have had the gun/ammo taken away.
It bothers me how y'all treat people who just want to have a gun as violent criminals.[/QUOTE]
OK everyone from outside the UK who are so offended by UK gun laws here's what you do.
Move and live in the UK, then set up a petition or join one that's already that lobbying for looser firearm control.
And then i and most of the nation can tell you to sod off with a resounding no vote.
We speak the same language but we don't speak the same lingo, we're like chalk and cheese, the US and UK are not the same, we have different cultural ideals and beliefs STOP trying to tell us we should have guns or how to we should treat them and their owners in our own damn country, stop applying your logic and reason to a nation you don't bloody live in and know relatively nothing about.
And because I'm well aware of the counter argument, I don't give a flying toss about America's gun laws i don't live there so I'm not about to say your gun laws are stupid and you should take all your guns away.
But this is all pointless because some muppet will just drag this round the same fucking circle just like the damn weather threads.
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