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[QUOTE=wystan;49856576]That "because history" reason is such bullshit. You can make a war so costly on lives it makes people want to stop fighting, how we kill them doesn't bother me, and if pulling a few teeth or making people think they're drowning has even a CHANCE to save American lives, I'll take it.[/QUOTE] But that fact that it's ineffective is indicative that it doesn't even do a good job at saving lives. This is literally just revenge fantasies, captured insurgents pose no threat to us and can be safely locked away. In fact if you're so concerned about American lives, why are you willing to take a chance on the fact that it's entirely plausible an innocent citizen could be mistakenly taken in and then tortured?
[QUOTE=wystan;49856614]Why should I care about these people's lives and feelings if they just want to kill me?[/QUOTE] And so the cycle continues.
[QUOTE=wystan;49856614]I'm not trying to kill those who disagree with me or live a different lifestyle or follow a different religion, stop comparing me to them.[/QUOTE] we're comparing you to someone that would torture another human being for any reason, which after all is said and done is just as bad [editline]3rd March 2016[/editline] beyond consensual reasons, but chances are you aren't referring to that
[QUOTE=SelfishDragon;49856635]But that fact that it's ineffective is indicative that it doesn't even do a good job at saving lives. This is literally just revenge fantasies, captured insurgents pose no threat to us and can be safely locked away. In fact if you're so concerned about American lives, why are you willing to take a chance on the fact that it's entirely plausible an innocent citizen could be mistakenly taken in and then tortured?[/QUOTE] But why not try? And Americans aren't sent to Gitmo and tortured, that whole 8th amendment.
[QUOTE=wystan;49856614]Objectively what is the downside of torture? Why SHOULDN'T we take that chance for information, no shit it make be a false lead, but why not try? There has got to be a cheap efficient way to torture so it isn't expensive and a real drain on resources. Why should I care about these people's lives and feelings if they just want to kill me? [editline]3rd March 2016[/editline] I'm not trying to kill those who disagree with me or live a different lifestyle or follow a different religion, stop comparing me to them.[/QUOTE] If you were raised in that world, it's not about "Different lifestyle" it's about the fact they literally helped destabalize your nation, they fucking killed people you know, they hurt your city, your home. You are not doing this because "different lifestyle". You are doing this because you are righteously upset with the enemy that has dared stomp on your grounds. I will not stop just because you don't see the connection and you have eaten all the rhetoric there is about "muslims"
[QUOTE=emly;49856637]And so the cycle continues.[/QUOTE] Peace isn't an option sometimes. [editline]3rd March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49856654]If you were raised in that world, it's not about "Different lifestyle" it's about the fact they literally helped destabalize your nation, they fucking killed people you know, they hurt your city, your home. You are not doing this because "different lifestyle". You are doing this because you are righteously upset with the enemy that has dared stomp on your grounds. I will not stop just because you don't see the connection and you have eaten all the rhetoric there is about "muslims"[/QUOTE] You going to try and tell me my beliefs again? How I feel about Muslims? I'm indifferent to Muslims, most Muslims aren't committed to kill Americans, I wouldn't give a shit if ISIS was Wiccan, my view applies to anyone who wants to kill Americans, it just so happens to be ISIS, who happen to be Muslim. Also don't pin ISIS' sole existence on America, we had a role no doubt, but that is a gross and unfair oversimplification. What's worse is your implication that the ISIS fighters are the victims.
[QUOTE=wystan;49856660]Peace isn't an option sometimes. [editline]3rd March 2016[/editline] You going to try and tell me my beliefs again? How I feel about Muslims? I'm indifferent to Muslims, most Muslims aren't committed to kill Americans, I wouldn't give a shit if ISIS was Wiccan, my view applies to anyone who wants to kill Americans, it just so happens to be ISIS, who happen to be Muslim. Also don't pin ISIS' sole existence on America, we had a role no doubt, but that is a gross and unfair oversimplification.[/QUOTE] You said "different lifestyles". That's not the reason they're trying to kill you. That's rhetoric YOU bought.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49856700]You said "different lifestyles". That's not the reason they're trying to kill you. That's rhetoric YOU bought.[/QUOTE] Wow you missed the point somewhere. ISIS wants to kill people for having different lifestyles, different religions, or disagree with them. I don't. Or are the ISIS members the real victims here? That's what you're implying.
[QUOTE=wystan;49856705]Wow you missed the point somewhere. ISIS wants to kill people for having different lifestyles, different religions, or disagree with them. I don't. Or are the ISIS members the real victims here? That's what you're implying.[/QUOTE] ISIS were created because the people who created it were raised by people who saw their homeland decimated in front of their eyes, created radical groups, raised their children to do so as well. They're not doing this over differing life styles. They're doing this for power. For revenge. For lots of reasons, but that's ridiculous. Islam is a tool to them, people see that. Not just me.
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856419]Actually it would seem that you know you're wrong, and you're desperately attempting to dodge a gaping flaw in your argument. You're trying to discredit me because you've been backed into a corner.[/QUOTE] oh, would you do me a favor and quote where im wrong? i wasnt in the discussion before then lmfao. are you even trying, dude?
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856419]Actually it would seem that you know you're wrong, and you're desperately attempting to dodge a gaping flaw in your argument. You're trying to discredit me because you've been backed into a corner. If we go back 15 years that average increases considerably. In going back 10 years you're not factoring in 9/11, which I daresay is rather important to this discussion.[/QUOTE] KKK lynched and killed well over 3000 people. Sure it wasn't in one awfully tragic event but it's still a group that considers itself Christian.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49856715]ISIS were created because the people who created it were raised by people who saw their homeland decimated in front of their eyes, created radical groups, raised their children to do so as well. They're not doing this over differing life styles. They're doing this for power. For revenge. For lots of reasons, but that's ridiculous. Islam is a tool to them, people see that. Not just me.[/QUOTE] I agree that they use Islam as a tool, that isn't uncommon to use Religion as a tool, but like I said, them being Muslim has nothing to do with it, so don't try and pull that shit trying to say I have eaten all the rhetoric about Muslims.
[QUOTE=wystan;49856735]I agree that they use Islam as a tool, that isn't uncommon to use Religion as a tool, but like I said, them being Muslim has nothing to do with it, so don't try and pull that shit trying to say I have eaten all the rhetoric about Muslims.[/QUOTE] So talk about the important part of what I said. [QUOTE]ISIS were created because the people who created it were raised by people who saw their homeland decimated in front of their eyes, created radical groups, raised their children to do so as well. They're not doing this over differing life styles. [/QUOTE] Argue with this. The important part. You are very good at not talking about the subject at hand
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;49856721]oh, would you do me a favor and quote where im wrong? i wasnt in the discussion before then lmfao. are you even trying, dude?[/QUOTE] It's obvious you support my opposition. That's why you attempted to deflect my argument. [QUOTE] KKK lynched and killed well over 3000 people. Sure it wasn't in one awfully tragic event but it's still a group that considers itself Christian. [/QUOTE] Maybe in the last 150 years, but I can't recall the KKK killing any meaningful amount of people in the last few decades.
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856751]It's obvious you support my opposition. That's why you attempted to deflect my argument. Maybe in the last 150 years, but I can't recall the KKK killing any meaningful amount of people in the last few decades.[/QUOTE] When you skew the statistics strictly in your favour so you don't have to talk about the issues then you're pretty much just trying to make empty arguments.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49856739]So talk about the important part of what I said. Argue with this. The important part. You are very good at not talking about the subject at hand[/QUOTE] How about you stop with the condescending and smug attitude, like holy shit. ISIS brought this upon themselves, you seriously sound like an ISIS apologist. These people need to be killed because they won't stop killing and expanding until they are dealt with forcefully. If the threat of being tortured has a chance of giving useful intel or striking some fear and doubt into these people, I say go for it. Even though I've said earlier torture should be clandestine because most people find it unpalatable, we should at least maintain plausible deniability, but I want ISIS to fear us, I want them broken and scared, let's treat them equally, you people are into equality right?
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856751]It's obvious you support my opposition. That's why you attempted to deflect my argument. Maybe in the last 150 years, but I can't recall the KKK killing any meaningful amount of people in the last few decades.[/QUOTE] you have no idea what i support, youre just assuming that. you gotta stop grasping at straws, man. youre making yourself look really bad. [editline]2nd March 2016[/editline] just because someone called you out for changing the topic when youre wrong doesnt mean that person disagrees with you. youre looking at this in a black and white, with us or against us mentality. thats really sad that you do that.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49856764]When you skew the statistics strictly in your favour so you don't have to talk about the issues then you're pretty much just trying to make empty arguments.[/QUOTE] The argument which I countered was that the majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Christians, ergo Christians are the most damaging. If anyone is attempting to skew statistics in their favor it's the people completely disregarding the amount of people killed. 10 attacks each costing 1 life are less than 1 attack which cost 100 lives. [QUOTE]you have no idea what i support, youre just assuming that. you gotta stop grasping at straws, man. youre making yourself look really bad. Edited: just because someone called you out for changing the topic when youre wrong doesnt mean that person disagrees with you. youre looking at this in a black and white, with us or against us mentality. thats really sad that you do that. [/QUOTE] It's remotely possible that you are in no way politically motivated to attempt to deflect my arguments and are simply doing so because you are under the illusion I was skewing the argument, that you only made your post because you value fairness and believe that I had violated the rules. That, however, is [I]highly [/I]unlikely. It is obvious based on the context that you supported his argument and were trying to discredit mine by accusing me of 'shifting the goalposts'
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856784]The argument which I countered was that the majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Christians, ergo Christians are the most damaging. If anyone is attempting to skew statistics in their favor it's the people completely disregarding the amount of people killed. 10 attacks each costing 1 life are less than 1 attack which cost 100 lives. It's remotely possible that you are in no way politically motivated to attempt to deflect my arguments and are simply doing so because you are under the illusion I was skewing the argument, that you only made your post because you value fairness and believe that I had violated the rules. That, however, is [I]highly [/I]unlikely. It is obvious based on the context that you supported his argument and were trying to discredit mine by accusing me of 'shifting the goalposts'[/QUOTE] well guess what, [I]buddy[/I]. you guessed wrong. i have no political motivation to call you out for shifting the goal posts. i have never stated my opinion on torture, you just jumped to the conclusion i was against it because i called you out. if you cant handle that, you shouldnt post. the objective fact is: when the stats that you disagree with were posted, you claimed they didnt matter because "no no, a [I]different[/I] stat is actually the one that matters". thats shifting the goal posts, and i called you out for it.
[QUOTE=wystan;49856767]How about you stop with the condescending and smug attitude, like holy shit. ISIS brought this upon themselves, you seriously sound like an ISIS apologist. These people need to be killed because they won't stop killing and expanding until they are dealt with forcefully. If the threat of being tortured has a chance of giving useful intel or striking some fear and doubt into these people, I say go for it. Even though I've said earlier torture should be clandestine because most people find it unpalatable, we should at least maintain plausible deniability, but I want ISIS to fear us, I want them broken and scared, let's treat them equally, you people are into equality right?[/QUOTE] Respond to his points or stop replying to him, you Goober. Rather than actually engage him on any logical grounds, you're calling him an "ISIS Apologist" and repeating yourself over and over. Arguing that torture is pointless, cruel, and yields no reliable information does not make you a terrorist sympathizer. It just makes you somebody who doesn't support torture because it doesn't accomplish anything. If you are unwilling or incapable of responding to his arguments directly, then at least do us all the favor of closing your mouth, so to speak, because you're not contributing anything worthwhile to the discussion.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;49856830]well guess what, [I]buddy[/I]. you guessed wrong. i have no political motivation to call you out for shifting the goal posts. i have never stated my opinion on torture, you just jumped to the conclusion i was against it because i called you out. if you cant handle that, you shouldnt post. the objective fact is: when the stats that you disagree with were posted, you claimed they didnt matter because "no no, a [I]different[/I] stat is actually the one that matters". thats shifting the goal posts, and i called you out for it.[/QUOTE] If you're seriously arguing that number of attacks > people killed, you're either delusional or pushing your ideology waaay too hard. [QUOTE]well guess what, [I]buddy[/I]. you guessed wrong. i have no political motivation to call you out for shifting the goal posts.[/QUOTE] Good for you, then. You are a noble crusader for justice. There is no way to disprove this, and further argument is futile for it's evident you are unwilling to acknowledge your own bias. I too am an infallible crusader for justice.
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856838]If you're seriously arguing that number of attacks > people killed, you're either delusional or pushing your ideology waaay too hard. Good for you, then. You are a noble crusader for justice. There is no way to disprove this, and further argument is futile for it's evident you are unwilling to acknowledge your own bias. I too am an infallible crusader for justice.[/QUOTE] im not arguing anything at all. once again, youre assuming something. are you even capable of not doing that for one post?
[QUOTE=wystan;49856576]That "because history" reason is such bullshit. [B]You can make a war so costly on lives it makes people want to stop fighting[/B], how we kill them doesn't bother me, and if pulling a few teeth or making people think they're drowning has even a CHANCE to save American lives, I'll take it.[/QUOTE] And how do you propose we do this against a foe that doesn't wear a uniform, oh sociopathic and bloodthirsty Great Leader?
actually on second thought, no. youre not. im done going off topic with you before i/we get banned. edit: and before you say something along the lines of "see, youre leaving because you know youre wrong!". im ending this because youve demonstrated that you either refuse to or lack the capability of holding a proper conversation. your lack of conversational skills is the reason im ending my dialogue with you. not because of the opinions either of us hold.
[QUOTE=Lurr;49856751]It's obvious you support my opposition. That's why you attempted to deflect my argument. Maybe in the last 150 years, but I can't recall the KKK killing any meaningful amount of people in the last few decades.[/QUOTE] As we all know, the value of human lives killed by religious extremists decreases with age.
[QUOTE=Ridge;49856077]Because lately they've taken to blowing up buildings and shooting people en masse.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure people who have your religion or political ideology have been doing the same lately too. American "Christians" go around firebombing abortion clinics and shooting up places. Going by your logic, we should ban these people from the country
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49854900]I responded to this already in brief, but I'm going to respond again in full. The strength you see, the strength you talk about, and the strength you pretend to have, is not true strength. It is the strength of pretenders, of cowards and of fools. You see that ISIS is "winning" against a coalition of nations with far more military power, economic power, and political power, and conclude that they must have some other strength that we lack - let us call it "strength of will" - and then, seeing that they are "winning", conclude that their strength is [I]better[/I] than ours, and that we can only hope to defeat them once we, too, have that strength. You are a pretender, because you think yourself strong because you have the stomach to do what needs to be done. You think yourself the lone voice of courage in an era of cowardice, because you can so freely cast aside the rules of civilization, of Enlightenment culture, in order to protect it. You have not said as much (for Strong Men do not need to talk about how strong they are), but the tenacity with which you cling to your position can only mean that you think to do otherwise would be to show weakness. Or perhaps you simply don't consider anyone else's position except as an argument to defeat, being absolutely confident in your own rightness, but that, too, is a false strength. You are a coward for thinking that we must surrender to ISIS's methods. Torture is forbidden, not merely when it is convenient, but at all times, because it is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and liberty. It is a tool only of those who wish all others to bend to their will - those who think that they are unquestionably right, and all opposing viewpoints must be silenced. If a person has committed to a course of evil, and will not be stopped by anything else, then yes, by all means, kill them. Hell, even if they could be stopped by something, but not before they might wreak more harm, killing them is ethically justified. Put a bullet through all of their heads. But the goal is to eliminate them as a threat, not to force them to suffer. Torturing them first, no matter what your justification is, is simply broadcasting "this person and their ideas are so evil that they are no longer human" - a message broadcast more towards your own subjects than to his compatriots. The eternal implied message is "if I deem your ideas as evil as his, I will torture you too". Also, take a moment to appreciate the irony in the statement "If you saw [ISIS using torture on their prisoners], you would [support torturing ISIS prisoners] too". Flip that around for a moment and you get one of ISIS's recruitment pitches - "America tortured prisoners, and so they're evil and we're justified in using torture as well". There is literally not a single shred of difference between your logic, and that. I wonder, if you had been born on the other side of the globe and the other side of the conflict, if you would have ended up joining ISIS, because your philosophy differs from theirs only in name. You are a fool for thinking that ISIS is winning because of their strength. They are barely holding on because we don't consider them enough of a threat to truly use our military force. We could destroy them in mere weeks, were we to deploy even a fraction of our full power. We could take the Seventh Army and sweep ISIS off the map - and then, for good measure, sweep Assad after them. Supporters might remain in the shadows, and some might do things in their name, but we could destroy them as a territory-holding nation with little effort. We do not make that effort because, after a decade of bush wars, and with all the trouble we have at home, we are [I]tired[/I]. ISIS is a problem we can take care of in the metaphorical morning, after a cup of metaphorical coffee, most people feel. And you know what? They really aren't wrong. The Paris attacks were awful, don't get me wrong, but they aren't an existential threat. France could have that happen every week and still be perfectly fine as a nation. America could endure a 9/11 every Tuesday and terrorism would only be the third-highest cause of preventable death. ([I]Obviously[/I], I don't think leaving ISIS be is a good idea - they really are committed towards an evil course of actions, and every death that can be prevented by killing them is worth saving. I'm merely pointing out that we're far more afraid of them than we have any justified reason to be, and that leaving them mostly alone because we have bigger priorities isn't a factually-wrong idea, merely a consequentially-wrong one.) You really want to stop ISIS, and damn the consequences? The most effective first step at this point would be to have a bunch of SEAL teams do some "extraordinary renditions" of Assad and his top leaders, and drop them off at the Hague for trial. They're as guilty of war crimes as anyone tried at Nuremberg, and that alone might be enough for the non-ISIS rebels to take power and start restoring order. Of course, what Russia does in response falls under "damn the consequences"...[/QUOTE] We are losing to ISIS because we unfortunately we have an incompetent president who thinks it's a great idea to fund these terrorist pieces of shit. We also have a president who unfortunately nominated John Kerry to fuck up the Iran deal. This was one of the most important deals in our country's history and John Kerry couldn't even get a deal where our hostages where we get our hostages back. John Kerry and Barrack Obama disgust me and they should be ashamed of how badly they messed up. We have president who ANNOUNCES OUR PLANS ON TELEVISION. You literally cannot get dumber than that. They are prepared for every single bombing and we wonder why we aren't hitting them. You're making up shit to sound smart. It's not working. When do I ever "talk about how strong I am" this is a fucking internet forum originally for Garry's Mod, give me a break. I've never once talked about that, the fact that you have lie is truly disgusting. I listen to all of you Bernie people, that's why I respond to you guys and let you know why I disagree with you and sometimes why I tell you that you are outright wrong. I do not consider anyone in ISIS to be human, they are all monsters. I don't think you actually know why they really do to our citizens, check out liveleak if you have the stomach for it. You will then see why I take the position on torture I do. I would never join a terrorist organization. How dare you suggest I ever would. You should be ashamed of yourself and are not a true American. I agree with what's right. I agree with the people that aren't making videos of themselves chaining innocent Americans up on poles and burning them alive. I agree with the people that aren't making videos of themselves slowly crushing innocent Americans with tanks. These people are monsters and should be treated as such. You're so worried about being politically correct that you're willing to lose our country to these pieces of human garbage simply because you think some people would think it's mean. Grow up. Hey, there's one thing we agree on. We absolutely could crush ISIS, and will. But only once Donald Trump is president, he will make sure that our brave soldiers have ALL of the equipment that they need and ONLY the best. You think we would be okay as a nation if almost 3000 people die, 6000 people are injured a landmark is destroyed EVERY WEEK to terrorists we would be okay as a nation? If we allowed that to happen EVERY OTHER NATION WOULD WALK ALL OVER US. You truly have one twisted mind if you think terrorist attacks such as what happened on 9/11 were okay and don't matter. I say again, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself and the disgusting filth that you posted. And so should anyone who gave your post a star. You are not a real American, you a fool, and you are a disgrace. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Disagreeing is fine, personal abuse of other members is not." - verynicelady))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Fat White Lump;49857033]We are losing to ISIS because we unfortunately we have an incompetent president who thinks it's a great idea to fund these terrorist pieces of shit. We also have a president who unfortunately nominated John Kerry to fuck up the Iran deal. This was one of the most important deals in our country's history and John Kerry couldn't even get a deal where our hostages where we get our hostages back. John Kerry and Barrack Obama disgust me and they should be ashamed of how badly they messed up. We have president who ANNOUNCES OUR PLANS ON TELEVISION. You literally cannot get dumber than that. They are prepared for every single bombing and we wonder why we aren't hitting them. You're making up shit to sound smart. It's not working. When do I ever "talk about how strong I am" this is a fucking internet forum originally for Garry's Mod, give me a break. I've never once talked about that, the fact that you have lie is truly disgusting. I listen to all of you Bernie people, that's why I respond to you guys and let you know why I disagree with you and sometimes why I tell you that you are outright wrong. I do not consider anyone in ISIS to be human, they are all monsters. I don't think you actually know why they really do to our citizens, check out liveleak if you have the stomach for it. You will then see why I take the position on torture I do. I would never join a terrorist organization. How dare you suggest I ever would. You should be ashamed of yourself and are not a true American. I agree with what's right. I agree with the people that aren't making videos of themselves chaining innocent Americans up on poles and burning them alive. I agree with the people that aren't making videos of themselves slowly crushing innocent Americans with tanks. These people are monsters and should be treated as such. You're so worried about being politically correct that you're willing to lose our country to these pieces of human garbage simply because you think some people would think it's mean. Grow up. Hey, there's one thing we agree on. We absolutely could crush ISIS, and will. But only once Donald Trump is president, he will make sure that our brave soldiers have ALL of the equipment that they need and ONLY the best. You think we would be okay as a nation if almost 3000 people die, 6000 people are injured a landmark is destroyed EVERY WEEK to terrorists we would be okay as a nation? If we allowed that to happen EVERY OTHER NATION WOULD WALK ALL OVER US. You truly have one twisted mind if you think terrorist attacks such as what happened on 9/11 were okay and don't matter. I say again, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself and the disgusting filth that you posted. And so should anyone who gave your post a star. You are not a real American, you a fool, and you are a disgrace.[/QUOTE] [B]Fun word replacement game:[/B] "terrorist" = "communist" "terrorists" = "communists" "Iran" = "Cuba" "ISIS" = "Russia" "Barrack Obama" = "John F Kennedy" "John Kerry" = "Kennedy Administration" I'm sure you guys can figure out the rest. Most of this is the same malarkey I heard when Bush got elected. Twice. Make sure you don't help America make the same mistake three times, Lump.
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;49857087][B]Fun word replacement game:[/B] "terrorist" = "communist" "terrorists" = "communists" "Iran" = "Cuba" "ISIS" = "Russia" "Barrack Obama" = "John F Kennedy" "John Kerry" = "Kennedy Administration" I'm sure you guys can figure out the rest. Most of this is the same BS I heard when Bush got elected. Twice. Make sure you don't help America make the same mistake three times, Lump.[/QUOTE] I'm voting for Trump on Tuesday and in November in the general, that is not a mistake.
[QUOTE=Fat White Lump;49857100]I'm voting for Trump on Tuesday and in November in the general, that is not a mistake.[/QUOTE] Good luck.
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