Any undocumented immigrant who entered the US after December 31, 2011, will not be eligible for citi - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Valnar;40273121]Because citizenship shouldn't be something that is "awarded" it should be something anyone is able to have. It shouldn't take years to happen, it really should be a process that is practically instantaneous.[/QUOTE] If someone entered a country illegally, why should they have citizenship like a person who entered legally?

[QUOTE=Crash15;40273152]If someone entered a country illegally, why should they have citizenship like a person who entered legally?[/QUOTE] Because the current legal process for immigration (atleast for the U.S.) is bad. There shouldn't even be a distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigration, all immigrants should be allowed.

[QUOTE=Crash15;40273152]If someone entered a country illegally, why should they have citizenship like a person who entered legally?[/QUOTE] Because people who enter illegally often do not have the money to buy the papers, or do not have access to government buildings that give out those papers. They still want to be a part of the country, but instead of paying extortionate amounts of money, (that they usually don't have due to corrupt governments or poor living conditions due to awful school systems and incredibly bad infrastructure job systems) they come here illegally and try to find a way to get citizenship while they have access to the proper systems within the country. Unfortunately, out nation doesn't like that, and instead of giving these people a chance to become citizens, we shove them back into destitution because they were unfortunate enough to be born on the other side of the river. Why does someone deserve to have citizenship simply because they have more money than someone who worked hard to get across the border for a better life for their family and themselves? [editline]13th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Crash15;40273093]Yes it is, they came to a country by hopping a fence or going by some other way. Why should they be awarded citizenship?[/QUOTE] So we only award citizenship to people who have money and access to the systems that grant these papers. What does that mean for those fucked over by corrupt governments who have not the time nor money nor access to get papers? (either because they live in rural areas, or because they live in areas without these buildings)

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;40271272]If they're illegal immigrants, they've already broken the law and thus criminals to begin with.[/QUOTE] Are the people who risk their lives and their families lives just to be able to work or escape violence truly criminals? My mother came to this country illegally, over stayed her visa, and paid some one to marry her so she could get married. She works for the state and is a us citizen as well as a brasillian citizen. The laws keeping immigrants from being able to move to the country are becoming just like Children of Men's, and its terrible.

Say what you want about illegals, but a good bit of them have an amazing work ethic. Teach them to speak English or hell, just teach one and give me 10 that cannot for every one that can and I'd hire them 9/10 over some lazy entitled citizen shit bag. Like seriously, the people that complain about "stolen jobs" just have terrible work ethic and are too fucking lazy to work anyway.

[QUOTE=Crash15;40273093]Yes it is, they came to a country by hopping a fence or going by some other way. Why should they be awarded citizenship?[/QUOTE] And the only thing that seperates you and them is the complete luck that you were born in a first world country, and hell they'll fight to the death to be able to live in a country like the US

[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;40273274]Are the people who risk their lives and their families lives just to be able to work or escape violence truly criminals? My mother came to this country illegally, over stayed her visa, and paid some one to marry her so she could get married. She works for the state and is a us citizen as well as a brasillian citizen. The laws keeping immigrants from being able to move to the country are becoming just like Children of Men's, and its terrible.[/QUOTE] Not all crimes are violent, not all criminals are violent. The presence of violence does not define all crimes.

[QUOTE=Ridge;40272585]They can still go the legal route. The route they SHOULD have gone to begin with.[/QUOTE] Easy to say for someone who had to wait 0 years for American citizenship instead of 13

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40273465]Easy to say for someone who had to wait 0 years for American citizenship instead of 13[/QUOTE] The 13 years is only for undocumenteds seeking legal citizenship, it's actually much easier and faster to just enter legally.

[QUOTE=Valnar;40273200]Because the current legal process for immigration (atleast for the U.S.) is bad. There shouldn't even be a distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigration, all immigrants should be allowed.[/QUOTE] come on down to Southern California and stay here for a few months-a year and see if you still think the same way.

[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;40273522]come on down to Southern California and stay here for a few months-a year and see if you still think the same way.[/QUOTE] Could you explain exactly what are you insinuating by that comment?

[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;40273522]come on down to Southern California and stay here for a few months-a year and see if you still think the same way.[/QUOTE] As someone who was born and raised in the Rio Grande Valley, I can easily say that yes, the U.S. immigration system labels honest, hard-working, people trying to escape poverty and violence, as criminals, while the system fails to accurately prevent the drug trafficking that it's put in place to restrict. It's a flawed system that attacks the innocent people trying to live a normal life in the U.S, while failing to prevent drug violence along the border. The people bringing in drugs and trafficking human sex slaves aren't going to stop and get papers, they're going to bribe their way out of shit, or not get caught period. The normal people are the one's who pay the price, not the actual criminals. Would you deny a person escaping war crimes entry into the U.S. because he didn't have the right papers? Because that's what it's like in Mexico except with more pollution, poverty, corruption and violence; these people looking for better lives for their children, and their families, are not the bad guys. [editline]13th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Valnar;40273643]Could you explain exactly what are you insinuating by that comment?[/QUOTE] Stereotyping Hispanics across the nation based on the minority of those he's heard of/met in one metropolitan area in one state. Don't conglomerate all of these people and legal systems into one, because that is not the case whatsoever.

[QUOTE=draugur;40273278]Like seriously, the people that complain about "stolen jobs" just have terrible work ethic and are too fucking lazy to work anyway.[/QUOTE] Immigrants are so damn Lazy! DEY TAKEN OUR JOBS. So them lazy people are taking your jobs. [video=youtube;nW20EMJr6o4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW20EMJr6o4[/video]

[QUOTE=Loriborn;40273771]As someone who was born and raised in the Rio Grande Valley, I can easily say that yes, the U.S. immigration system labels honest, hard-working, people trying to escape poverty and violence, as criminals, while the system fails to accurately prevent the drug trafficking that it's put in place to restrict. It's a flawed system that attacks the innocent people trying to live a normal life in the U.S, while failing to prevent drug violence along the border. The people bringing in drugs and trafficking human sex slaves aren't going to stop and get papers, they're going to bribe their way out of shit, or not get caught period. The normal people are the one's who pay the price, not the actual criminals. Would you deny a person escaping war crimes entry into the U.S. because he didn't have the right papers? Because that's what it's like in Mexico except with more pollution, poverty, corruption and violence; these people looking for better lives for their children, and their families, are not the bad guys.[/QUOTE] Not only that, but the current immigration system also encourages the exploitation of workers who came here illegally. Business owners who use migrant workers are able to hold deportation over those workers heads, which means they can get away with stuff they wouldn't be able to do to a worker who is a citizen. The government also doesn't really want to actively deport people who are undocumented because they often pay into the tax system while also not being able to receive benefits.

Tons of immigrant come to the US illegally because citizenship is practically impossible to get! Solution: Make citizenship actually impossible to get! A++ job legislators

[QUOTE=Valnar;40273200]Because the current legal process for immigration (atleast for the U.S.) is bad. There shouldn't even be a distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigration, all immigrants should be allowed.[/QUOTE] Can you name one country who (currently) allows unlimited immigration? Bonus round- can you name one country that has less restrictive immigration laws then America?

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;40275092]Can you name one country who (currently) allows unlimited immigration? Bonus round- can you name one country that has less restrictive immigration laws then America?[/QUOTE] How are either of those questions relevant? So what if there isn't a country that allows unlimited immigration? Also, just because America may have the least restrictive immigration policy (note I am not actually sure if it does or not), that doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be less restrictive.

[QUOTE=Valnar;40275231]How are either of those questions relevant? So what if there isn't a country that allows unlimited immigration? Also, just because America may have the least restrictive immigration policy (note I am not actually sure if it does or not), that doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be less restrictive.[/QUOTE] I just find it sad that ppl rail against America on immigration when almost every other country has either equivalent or worse policies in place. Not saying there's no room for improvement on USA immigration policy but at the same time I believe if your promoting a particular cause you should actually know something about the subject. Unfortunately too often this is not the case. In their minds they truly believe "the world would be a utopia if ~insert unrealistic demand~" and they never bother to use any type of rational thought (or facts) to back up their argument.

God, the US gov is getting dumber everyday

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40271641]The US is not a giant refugee camp nor is it a country that is even remotely capable of sustaining a constant flow of immigrants at this time.[/QUOTE] That's what every every country or atleast what everybody says, but I guess its unfortunately true.

So their solution to illegal immigration is to literally make it impossible for immigrants who entered after a certain date to even get citizenship, and those before it have to wait another 13 years? who the fuck thought this was in any way a good idea?

open the fucking borders

When I was a kid all I wanted was to be an american. Then I saw how backwards retarded your politicians and laws are at times.

Non-US Citizens are still under the jurisdiction of the Constitution. And this law seems pretty unconstitutional with it being an ex post facto law and all.

With the current system you won't. I wouldn't advocate just opening them it would have to be a structured process but in the end we need to open all borders I reckon. Nation states are old hat and outdated for how the world operates today on a global scale.

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;40275433]I just find it sad that ppl rail against America on immigration when almost every other country has either equivalent or worse policies in place. Not saying there's no room for improvement on USA immigration policy but at the same time I believe if your promoting a particular cause you should actually know something about the subject. Unfortunately too often this is not the case. In their minds they truly believe "the world would be a utopia if ~insert unrealistic demand~" and they never bother to use any type of rational thought (or facts) to back up their argument.[/QUOTE] How is practically instant immigration as an endgoal unrealistic? I realize that kind of reform won't happen overnight, but it is something that should happen. People need to start moving into that mindset. I mean we have been practically having open borders with Mexico seeing as we have an estimated 11 million undocumented people in the U.S. Those undocumented people are already ingrained into our economy and they have [URL="http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2012/1/cj32n1-3.pdf"]provided benefits to the economy[/URL] (pg 28) and [URL="http://bradleybaptist.org/cms/uploads/ethnic/resources/08 Immigrants and Immigration/Illegal immigrants bolster Soc Sec w billions.pdf"]pay a lot into taxes.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Valnar;40278698]How is practically instant immigration as an endgoal unrealistic? I realize that kind of reform won't happen overnight, but it is something that should happen. People need to start moving into that mindset. I mean we have been practically having open borders with Mexico seeing as we have an estimated 11 million undocumented people in the U.S. Those undocumented people are already ingrained into our economy and they have [URL="http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2012/1/cj32n1-3.pdf"]provided benefits to the economy[/URL] (pg 28) and [URL="http://bradleybaptist.org/cms/uploads/ethnic/resources/08 Immigrants and Immigration/Illegal immigrants bolster Soc Sec w billions.pdf"]pay a lot into taxes.[/URL][/QUOTE] It's not going to happen in my lifetime. Just look at the problems Europe is having with immigration. It's not a result i would want for America. Sure, you have studies showing they pay taxes and contribute to soc sec. But the problem is those are estimates. It's impossible to track due to the undocumented (and often forged) nature of illegal immigration. Would it surprise you that I could show you studies showing increased costs, increased unemployment, and further stress on public schools? Because those studies all exist as well (and are often based on estimates) If what you want is blanket amnesty and near-instant guaranteed path to American citizenship- you're going to be disappointed. Such a radical change would take generations. One extreme wants blanket amnesty for anyone stepping foot on American soil/ the other extreme wants to throw every illegal immigrant back over the border. Both extremes are equally crazy IMO. What we need is comprehensive reform somewhere in the middle, and a law offering a path to citizenship could very well be that middle ground.

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;40279367]It's not going to happen in my lifetime. Just look at the problems Europe is having with immigration. It's not a result i would want for America. Sure, you have studies showing they pay taxes and contribute to soc sec. But the problem is those are estimates. It's impossible to track due to the undocumented (and often forged) nature of illegal immigration. Would it surprise you that I could show you studies showing increased costs, increased unemployment, and further stress on public schools? Because those studies all exist as well (and are often based on estimates) If what you want is blanket amnesty and near-instant guaranteed path to American citizenship- you're going to be disappointed. Such a radical change would take generations. One extreme wants blanket amnesty for anyone stepping foot on American soil/ the other extreme wants to throw every illegal immigrant back over the border. Both extremes are equally crazy IMO. What we need is comprehensive reform somewhere in the middle, and a law offering a path to citizenship could very well be that middle ground.[/QUOTE] You realize that the pressure undocumented workers put on public school is more of a result of the fact that they aren't documented, rather than because they immigrated? If undocumented workers were naturalized, than that would mean they would end up paying for any of the taxes that are missing because of the fact they aren't citizens.

[QUOTE=Valnar;40279526]You realize that the pressure undocumented workers put on public school is more of a result of the fact that they aren't documented, rather than because they immigrated? If undocumented workers were naturalized, than that would mean they would end up paying for any of the taxes that are missing because of the fact they aren't citizens.[/QUOTE] Yes, except for the minor fact that illegal immigrants have very little education, often no English, and few skills that are usable in the job market. Anyone making so little (even legal immigrants aka Americans) pays next to nothing tax wise. What little they would pay would be offset by increased costs- schooling, emergency health care, subsidized insurance (assuming that plan ever goes into full effect), housing assistance, food stamps, welfare. People qualified to do well paying jobs don't illegally immigrate- and if they did that niche group would be welcomed (today we actually fast tract their application) Instead we will get the poorest of the poor. We can barely keep America's support system going now with the stresses of the economy. How much worse would it be if overnight another 30 mill ppl were added to welfare? States have their finances stretched as far as they can- who is going to pay for these increased costs?

Anybody who claims that immigrants damages the economy of a country, increases unemployment, or destroys some kind of moral or cultural entity within the country is a blasted fool.