• British nuclear submarine gunman sentenced to life in prison
    71 replies, posted
[QUOTE=J!NX;32379727]He didn't actually kill anyone. He MADE people kill FOR him.[/QUOTE] Still a murderer. I am slowly declining on the death penalty, but I do not believe in rehabilitation for murderers. When most people argue about it it's like the victim is totally irrelevant and the murderer is a case to be fixed. There is no justice. Even still, the right to life life is a right almost everybody should have.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32379989]Still a murderer. I am slowly declining on the death penalty, but I do not believe in rehabilitation for murderers. When most people argue about it it's like the victim is totally irrelevant and the murderer is a case to be fixed. There is no justice. Even still, the right to life life is a right almost everybody should have.[/QUOTE] Hitler didn't kill anyone either, but I agree, still a murderer, and a manipulator. (Hitler to a waaaaay more extreme degree) I think making others kill for you is far more evil than simply killing people yourself, still don't agree on the DP though, only special cases.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32379989]Still a murderer. I am slowly declining on the death penalty, but I do not believe in rehabilitation for murderers. When most people argue about it it's like the victim is totally irrelevant and the murderer is a case to be fixed. There is no justice. Even still, the right to life life is a right [b]almost[/b] everybody should have.[/QUOTE] No, not almost. Everyone has the right to life, everyone. The State should not be allowed to kill it's citizens, there is no circumstance where that is beneficial to Humanity.
[QUOTE=Nubsy;32380096]No, not almost. Everyone has the right to life, everyone. The State should not be allowed to kill it's citizens, there is no circumstance where that is beneficial to Humanity.[/QUOTE] I wasn't talking about citizens, I mean EXTREME cases. Like Gadafi, Osama, Sadam, Hitler, and whatnot. You know, war criminals to the highest degree, even then though, it should be up to the people if they want him dead or locked up.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32380215]I wasn't talking about citizens, I mean EXTREME cases. Like Gadafi, Osama, Sadam, Hitler, and whatnot. You know, war criminals to the highest degree, even then though, it should be up to the people if they want him dead or locked up.[/QUOTE] Still a human, thus still has the human right to life.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32380215]I wasn't talking about citizens, I mean EXTREME cases. Like Gadafi, Osama, Sadam, Hitler, and whatnot. You know, war criminals to the highest degree, even then though, it should be up to the people if they want him dead or locked up.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand. These people, how ever hideous in their actions are still just that, people. People with rights, rights cannot be removed otherwise they are not rights. It seems annoying and unfair, I know but we have to uphold these ideals. Without them things would be a lot worse.
[QUOTE=Nubsy;32380291]I don't think you understand. These people, how ever hideous in their actions are still just that, people. People with rights, rights cannot be removed otherwise they are not rights. It seems annoying and unfair, I know but we have to uphold these ideals. Without them things would be a lot worse.[/QUOTE] I respect your views. But I have to ask, how would stripping rights from extreme war criminals make things worse as a whole?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32379488]Except for the fact that it has been proven that you can rehabilitate murderers.[/QUOTE] yes, waste a bunch of money rehabilitate him so they can work at a gas station for the rest of his life, not many places are desperate to hire murderers.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32380423]I respect your views. But I have to ask, how would stripping rights from extreme war criminals make things worse as a whole?[/QUOTE] Humanity is important. It makes you (The State, the UN or the whatever) no better, nor the situation, by removing the rights of the person in question. It only serves to dehumanise us. [Editline]when[/editline] [QUOTE=SpaceGhost;32380432]yes, waste a bunch of money rehabilitate him so they can work at a gas station for the rest of his life, not many places are desperate to hire murderers.[/QUOTE] It costs a lot to kill someone, crazy amounts of red tape there. Rehabilitation is an achievable goal, so why not achieve it?
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32380423]I respect your views. But I have to ask, how would stripping rights from extreme war criminals make things worse as a whole?[/QUOTE] Because you have a precident for the removal of a right, (which then becomes a privilage, not a right) which means that any victim who has had their mother murdered or the like can argue for the stripping of the right to live of the murderer. If this is then granted, and precident makes it more likely, you have more precident, thus the standards slowly slip over time. Also, it's arguably sinking to their level, they removed rights of people, so you'll remove theirs? I'm afraid that I see that as a bit wierd and wrong.
Hahaha wow how do you disobey an order to not clean part of a ship?! But seriously, you have to have some screws loose to kill a member of your own military that you serve in.
Best to take this to the debate forum :o What happened with this guy, did he just snap? I mean if he's made it into the military he can take more than cleaning duty right?
What is his major malfunction?
[QUOTE=Nubsy;32380494]Humanity is important. It makes you (The State, the UN or the whatever) no better, nor the situation, by removing the rights of the person in question. It only serves to dehumanise us. [Editline]when[/editline] It costs a lot to kill someone, crazy amounts of red tape there. Rehabilitation is an achievable goal, so why not achieve it?[/QUOTE] Well you got a real good point there. Same with terminuter. But for the second post, life in prison is not as expensive and how is releasing a murderer, whether he is genuinely sorry/rehabilitated or not, justice? You can say that justice isn't about revenge or vengefullness, but do you think their crime can be so easily brushed away without any substantial punishment?
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32380423]I respect your views. But I have to ask, how would stripping rights from extreme war criminals make things worse as a whole?[/QUOTE] It makes us ("us" in this sense being the "good" people who are against them) no better than them. Rights by their nature cannot be taken away, no matter what. No one on this earth should have the power to decide that someone is not worthy of their basic rights.
Sometimes, acceptance of reality is all the punishment necessary. I thought that restorative justice or whatever it's called was bullshit, first I heard it (I seem to recall myself stating that the Medellin Cartel, the Los Zetas or Al Quaida would just laugh at it) but it actually has a profound impact on some people. There's a video somewhere about a druggie who robbed a house and injured the homeowner a bit, and he meets the homeowner when he's in prison. They have a really long discussion where the homeowner describes what he's suffered (feels he can't defend his family, scared in his own home and such) and the robber generally did not know what he had done. He actually felt that he had to stay in jail and that he deserved it. The homeowner tried to help get the robber converted and educated, and it actually worked really well.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32380900]Well you got a real good point there. Same with terminuter. But for the second post, life in prison is not as expensive and how is releasing a murderer, whether he is genuinely sorry/rehabilitated or not, justice? You can say that justice isn't about revenge or vengefullness, but do you think their crime can be so easily brushed away without any substantial punishment?[/QUOTE] There is a lot of documentation on how it (DP) is actually more expensive, I thought for a long time that it (DP) must of been cheaper, but it isn't. Bureaucratic shenanigans, lawyers to say it's okay, wages for the executioner and other stuff. While I understand the sentiment that this person has killed so the only true reimbursement will be death, I still think it's barbaric and closed-minded. We all strive for a better world and species, things like the death penalty halt such an ascent terribly. That and I [i]highly[/i] doubt that after (probably the best) forty years of your life being spent in a prison you would still say that whatever crime you commited was just "brushed away."
[QUOTE=Terminutter;32381084]Sometimes, acceptance of reality is all the punishment necessary. I thought that restorative justice or whatever it's called was bullshit, first I heard it (I seem to recall myself stating that the Medellin Cartel, the Los Zetas or Al Quaida would just laugh at it) but it actually has a profound impact on some people. There's a video somewhere about a druggie who robbed a house and injured the homeowner a bit, and he meets the homeowner when he's in prison. They have a really long discussion where the homeowner describes what he's suffered (feels he can't defend his family, scared in his own home and such) and the robber generally did not know what he had done. He actually felt that he had to stay in jail and that he deserved it. The homeowner tried to help get the robber converted and educated, and it actually worked really well.[/QUOTE] Well that is a robber, and while he committed a crime and did have a profound impact on the homeowner, he didn't rob anybody of their life. I believe wholehearted;y in restorative justice in almost every other case however, and can help clear out jails filled with minor to somewhat serious offenders.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32379291]Your opinion on the matter means absolutely nothing when scientific study says otherwise.[/QUOTE] Please point me to the scientific study where you can prevent all evilness happening in our world. Okay not all evilness, but murders and other unlawful killings.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;32381275]Please point me to the scientific study where you can prevent all evilness happening in our world. Okay not all evilness, but murders and other unlawful killings.[/QUOTE] We both know that is not what he was implying, we are talking about the rehabilitation of criminals, not the prevention of crime in the first place.
[QUOTE=Nubsy;32381206]There is a lot of documentation on how it (DP) is actually more expensive, I thought for a long time that it (DP) must of been cheaper, but it isn't. Bureaucratic shenanigans, lawyers to say it's okay, wages for the executioner and other stuff. While I understand the sentiment that this person has killed so the only true reimbursement will be death, I still think it's barbaric and closed-minded. We all strive for a better world and species, things like the death penalty halt such an ascent terribly. That and I [i]highly[/i] doubt that after (probably the best) forty years of your life being spent in a prison you would still say that whatever crime you commited was just "brushed away."[/QUOTE] I wasn't advocating the DP, I know how the legal process makes it a lot more expensive. I am just against rehab for murderers. Also, while 40 years of your life is a long time, it still doesn't make up for the fact that you taken a persons life, blanked them out of existence forever. Also I'm off till tomorrow. Cya guys.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;32381350]I wasn't advocating the DP, I know how the legal process makes it a lot more expensive. I am just against rehab for murderers. Also, while 40 years of your life is a long time, it still doesn't make up for the fact that you taken a persons life, blanked them out of existence forever. Also I'm off till tomorrow. Cya guys.[/QUOTE] Goodnight. Retribution is archaic, really. A simple thing, and not a decent basis for a legal system which is moving further and further away from weight scales and further towards the benefit of society. Perhaps the only way you can look at things like this nowadays is from the point of view that you are not here to right the balance of good and evil in the world, but to attempt to make life better for those that are left behind when such events occur.
[QUOTE=Nubsy;32380494]Humanity is important. It makes you (The State, the UN or the whatever) no better, nor the situation, by removing the rights of the person in question. It only serves to dehumanise us. [Editline]when[/editline] It costs a lot to kill someone, crazy amounts of red tape there. Rehabilitation is an achievable goal, so why not achieve it?[/QUOTE] What good will they do for society?
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;32381489]What good will they do for society?[/QUOTE] What good will killing them do?
[QUOTE=Nubsy;32381328]We both know that is not what he was implying, we are talking about the rehabilitation of criminals, not the prevention of crime in the first place.[/QUOTE] It comes down to the prisoners whether they want to be rehabilitated or not. Implying that some criminals just don't change. Like someone always failing the test. And those who can be turned into a better person after committing a crime, it doesn't take more than just reasoning/talking and understanding and that's rehabilitation. You don't need science for that.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;32379885]Well, I'm at least glad kind of that people see my argument, but I still don't endorse the rehabilitation of murderers.[/QUOTE] You're not even debating, you're just typing opinions from your own bullheadedness. Do you want to hear another fact? [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysfunctional_family#Effects_on_children]Kids in aggressive families tend to be aggressive.[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression#In_children]I guess I should say I feel sorry for you,[/url] [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/5/e1057]since your aggression towards people isn't your own fault.[/url]
Hoshit.. He was about to clean the ship, alright..!
Pretty badass for a politician.
Did anyone else read the title as "British submarine sentenced to life in prison"? :v:
He joined for the Rum ration. When he found out there was none, he went nuts.
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