[QUOTE=Ridge;31433130]Raising the debt limit and spending as usual IS ignoring it.[/QUOTE]
Raising the debt limit to allow certain spending to recover an economy is not ignoring a debt.
You do realize that pure cuts doesn't solve shit right? You really need both.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;31433374]Yes it is, we have a 14 trillion dollar debt, raising it over and over is ignoring it altogether.
What are we going to do when we have a 30 trillion dollar debt?[/QUOTE]
just because you raise a debt limit doesn't mean you're ignoring the problem. this is a stupidly juvenile thing to say
Why do we even have a debt limit when it's not going to do anything? As if limits stopped any politicians before.
Oh my, so hard to read the italics.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;31433980]Why do we even have a debt limit when it's not going to do anything? As if limits stopped any politicians before.[/QUOTE]
You do realize that the debt limit is pretty much like the spending limit to credit cards right? One call and you can just have it raised.
To simplify it, the U.S. Government has this magical credit card. A bill comes in and they realize that they are spending a little over per month. They realize that they need to increase the debt ceiling in order to satisfy this extra spending and it also protects the US Credit.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;31433980]Why do we even have a debt limit when it's not going to do anything? As if limits stopped any politicians before.[/QUOTE]
It's a holdover from controls placed on the treasury during WWI/II.
[url]http://www.ourdime.us/1045/concepts/what-is-the-u-s-debt-ceiling/[/url]
It has bureaucratic functions, the "ceiling" portion of it isn't all that important.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31433454]Raising the debt limit to allow certain spending to recover an economy is not ignoring a debt.
You do realize that pure cuts doesn't solve shit right? You really need both.[/QUOTE]
We've been raising the debt limit to allow certain spending to recover the economy for years now, and we have jack shit to show for it. Unemployment is at nearly 10%, millions of people are without a place to live and more keep getting laid off.
[editline]30th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31434005]You do realize that the debt limit is pretty much like the spending limit to credit cards right? One call and you can just have it raised.
To simplify it, the U.S. Government has this magical credit card. A bill comes in and they realize that they are spending a little over per month. They realize that they need to increase the debt ceiling in order to satisfy this extra spending and it also protects the US Credit.[/QUOTE]
The problem here is they are applying for more credit cards to pay the minimum payment on ones they've already maxed out.
[QUOTE=Ridge;31435223]We've been raising the debt limit to allow certain spending to recover the economy for years now, and we have jack shit to show for it. Unemployment is at nearly 10%, millions of people are without a place to live and more keep getting laid off.[/QUOTE]
The porn industry seems to be doing good.
[QUOTE=Nikota;31435273]The porn industry seems to be doing good.[/QUOTE]
What else would they do in Congress all day? They just jerk off.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;31433374]Yes it is, we have a 14 trillion dollar debt, raising it over and over is ignoring it altogether.
What are we going to do when we have a 30 trillion dollar debt?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ridge;31432643]Don't see anything about it being okay to ignore the debt.[/QUOTE]
I don't think either of you know what raising the debt ceiling means. It's not sweep the debt under the rug so we can buy more shit and not think about it, it's to allow us to pay off the debt we have. Because otherwise we default, which means the value of the dollar goes to shit, as does our credit rating, and inflation would be rampant. Social security along with other government services would shut down, millions of people would lose their jobs and become homeless.
AKA depression part 2. The people saying we should default have literally no idea what they're saying.
I love how the debt ceiling has been raised so many times yet Republicans act like it's Obama's fault and make a huge deal about it this time.
Debt Ceiling Changes (From wikipedia)
[img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3655261/debt%20ceiling2.PNG[/img]
OK so what exactly happens when the U.S. defaults on this?
Do they basically have to pay the debts immediately or what?
I don't know much about this stuff. :v:
[QUOTE=Fatman55;31436765]OK so what exactly happens when the U.S. defaults on this?
Do they basically have to pay the debts immediately or what?
I don't know much about this stuff. :v:[/QUOTE]
It means they'll not be able to spend any more money then they do currently, and they'll have a tough time getting more loans from other countries. 'Big deal', you say, well it'll also mean the interest rates on all those loans is higher, making it harder to pay off the bills they already have because they're not rated as 'completely safe'.
It'll also mean mortgage and credit card companies will charge higher rates.
Oh, and we'll all be enslaved by the Chinese. Forgot about that bit.
[QUOTE=Fatman55;31436765]OK so what exactly happens when the U.S. defaults on this?
Do they basically have to pay the debts immediately or what?
I don't know much about this stuff. :v:[/QUOTE]
It seems this question comes up every few posts at this point. If you want to know, it's probably been asked already, so just read the last few pages.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;31436842]
Oh, and we'll all be enslaved by the Chinese. Forgot about that bit.[/QUOTE]
The Chinese will never call in their debt because the whole global economy would collapse.
We're also much more useful as a scared nation of importers who eagerly buy their products than we are economically dead.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;31436842]It means they'll not be able to spend any more money then they do currently, and they'll have a tough time getting more loans from other countries. 'Big deal', you say, well it'll also mean the interest rates on all those loans is higher, making it harder to pay off the bills they already have because they're not rated as 'completely safe'.
It'll also mean mortgage and credit card companies will charge higher rates.
Oh, and we'll all be enslaved by the Chinese. Forgot about that bit.[/QUOTE]
It'll also devalue the bonds various banks and companies around the world have brought from the US, so it'll send a wave of panic around the world at the same time.
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;31432592]It also calls for the enforcement of payment of said debts. I don't know the exact case, but during the 1930s a man sued the government because they refused to pay money they owed him, citing the 14th Amendment. He won his case. In a similar way, if Obama unilaterally raises the debt ceiling because Congress refuses to compromise, he can cite that the 14th Amendment makes the debt ceiling and Congress' actions unconstitutional. The Supreme Court would likely rule in his favor, as the result would be forcing the United States to default on debts it can afford to pay, which is illegal under said amendment.[/QUOTE]
So, would citing the 14th Ammendment (and the unconstitutional nature of the debt-ceiling and whatnot) generally be a good thing? If it benefits us and prevents economic collapse, does anyone know Obama's email or is it important for the President to keep his email address solely in political circles? If that's how it is, then we could always send tweets to the White House's twitter with the "#14thammendment" tag to make it trend and give Obama the pointer if he hasn't already got that ace up his sleeve.
[QUOTE=ironman17;31437199]So, would citing the 14th Ammendment (and the unconstitutional nature of the debt-ceiling and whatnot) generally be a good thing? If it benefits us and prevents economic collapse, does anyone know Obama's email or is it important for the President to keep his email address solely in political circles? If that's how it is, then we could always send tweets to the White House's twitter with the "#14thammendment" tag to make it trend and give Obama the pointer if he hasn't already got that ace up his sleeve.[/QUOTE]
He knows about it, and has said that he will not be using it.
[QUOTE=Reimu;31437058]The Chinese will never call in their debt because the whole global economy would collapse.
We're also much more useful as a scared nation of importers who eagerly buy their products than we are economically dead.[/QUOTE]
I agree, the Chinese won't do shit. Except laugh a lot, probably, to make them forget their own financial problems.
Really? Why wouldn't he use it? Is it because the Republicans would accuse him of "technicality-based bullshit" or something? Or does he simply not agree with the concept of using the Constitution as an "excuse"?
[QUOTE=ironman17;31437325]Really? Why wouldn't he use it? Is it because the Republicans would accuse him of "technicality-based bullshit" or something? Or does he simply not agree with the concept of using the Constitution as an "excuse"?[/QUOTE]
I don't know.
[QUOTE=ironman17;31437325]Really? Why wouldn't he use it? Is it because the Republicans would accuse him of "technicality-based bullshit" or something? Or does he simply not agree with the concept of using the Constitution as an "excuse"?[/QUOTE]
I suspect so. Clinton also said recently he'd 'just say 'screw em' and raise it anyway, then fight in the courts after'. I think Obama is trying to be as clear-cut as possible to not damage the proceedings.
Remember that if he does as Clinton said, the backlash would be EXTREME to him and his party. He can't even convince people he's American, let alone 'breaking' the constitution be deemed reasonable.
[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;31435971]I love how the debt ceiling has been raised so many times yet Republicans act like it's Obama's fault and make a huge deal about it this time.
Debt Ceiling Changes (From wikipedia)
[img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3655261/debt%20ceiling2.PNG[/img][/QUOTE]
It's exactly the same as all the Ds (Obama included) doing the same thing when Bush did it. It's a lame attempt to make it a partisan issue when they've both been doing it for decades.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;31437426]I suspect so. Clinton also said recently he'd 'just say 'screw em' and raise it anyway, then fight in the courts after'. I think Obama is trying to be as clear-cut as possible to not damage the proceedings.
Remember that if he does as Clinton said, the backlash would be EXTREME to him and his party. He can't even convince people he's American, let alone 'breaking' the constitution be deemed reasonable.[/QUOTE]
if breaking the constitution will save this country, then I will deem him as a hero for doing it
[QUOTE=RBM11;31433412]We're not raising the debt, we're raising the amount we're allowed to pay to debts already incurred.
lol @ conservative economic knowledge[/QUOTE]
This is a fucking retarded statement and you should feel bad. We're not "raising the amount we're allowed to pay to debts already incurred", That's not what the debt ceiling means. Why would anyone ever make a limit on how much we're allowed to pay on current debts? Are you stupid?
The debt ceiling is the maximum amount of debt our nation can have, period, they want to raise the limit because they want to pay for debts already incurred with new debt they're allowed to have. That's how we've been paying for a significant amount of government spending for quite a long time.
Of course more debt will come, once again nobody with a brain is arguing that if the debt ceiling is raised, we won't have more debt. We will, of course have more debt. That's the entire reason for raising it.
Instead of cutting spending to pay for our deficit, though, the Democrats don't find that as reasonable. This came out of the blue, I agree and to most people they don't understand why now of all times this is important. This is important now not because we'll have too much debt in the future. The problem won't be that we can't borrow because congress won't let us.
The problem comes when people are no longer willing to lend to us. That's about as horrible a default as we can experience, even more horrible than current alternatives and if they keep down the road of endless borrowing, that is indeed what will happen. I don't think a majority of Republicans or people in the Tea party actually believe this, mind you, they're just using it as a political weapon. Our current amount of debt is a gigantic problem though.
[editline]e[/editline]
[QUOTE=lum1naire;31444958]if breaking the constitution will save this country, then I will deem him as a hero for doing it[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, the president having the power to ignore the war powers resolution and debt ceiling mandates was only holding us back. Obviously with infinite money and military action at the disposal of the king-president our country will be the greatest this planet has ever known. A recipe for victory.
Please die.
[QUOTE=s0beit;31445497]This is a fucking retarded statement and you should feel bad. We're not "raising the amount we're allowed to pay to debts already incurred", That's not what the debt ceiling means. Why would anyone ever make a limit on how much we're allowed to pay on current debts? Are you stupid?
The debt ceiling is the maximum amount of debt our nation can have, period, they want to raise the limit because they want to pay for debts already incurred with new debt they're allowed to have. That's how we've been paying for a significant amount of government spending for quite a long time.
Of course more debt will come, once again nobody with a brain is arguing that if the debt ceiling is raised, we won't have more debt. We will, of course have more debt. That's the entire reason for raising it.
Instead of cutting spending to pay for our deficit, though, the Democrats don't find that as reasonable. This came out of the blue, I agree and to most people they don't understand why now of all times this is important. This is important now not because we'll have too much debt in the future. The problem won't be that we can't borrow because congress won't let us.
The problem comes when people are no longer willing to lend to us. That's about as horrible a default as we can experience, even more horrible than current alternatives and if they keep down the road of endless borrowing, that is indeed what will happen. I don't think a majority of Republicans or people in the Tea party actually believe this, mind you, they're just using it as a political weapon. Our current amount of debt is a gigantic problem though.[/QUOTE]
Spending is not something I blame either party for at this point. Both parties spend, it just depends what they spend it on.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31445727]Spending is not something I blame either party for at this point. Both parties spend, it just depends what they spend it on.[/QUOTE]
I don't really care where the blame rests, that's just a political sideshow. Of course no party will say "You know, you're right, it's all our fault", they'll both just endlessly bicker with one another without actually solving any problems.
To the people who rated be dumb, please explain where I was wrong, or are you just going to click a button and pretend that's a legitimate argument?
It was probably for the "this is a fucking retarded statement and you should feel bad" and the "please die".
[QUOTE=lum1naire;31444958]if breaking the constitution will save this country, then I will deem him as a hero for doing it[/QUOTE]
Although i'm in complete support of Obama on this issue, breaking the constitution sets a very dangerous precedent.
Also, what exactly happens if the US defaults? Will every developed economy be screwed? Will it be worse than the 2009 recession?
[QUOTE=Pace.;31445813]Will it be worse than the 2009 recession?[/QUOTE]
Yes. In a worst case scenario, it will be just as bad if not worse than the Depression.
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