Whitehouse.gov responds to petition about removing the "Under god" from the pledge of allegience - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Broseph_;33056205]Except it is due to due it being as much of a belief system, since it is a held belief that god does not exist[/quote] Wrong, it's not a belief that god doesn't exist. It's saying "prove god exists, and until you do, I have no reason to believe in it." [quote]Oh I'm fucking sorry I used the wrong measurement of time to refer to how old the concept of atheism is which I fucking know goes back to antiquity, my fucking bad[/quote] Well again atheism isn't a belief system it's just a term that describes someone who lacks religious beliefs, no need to get all mad about it. [quote]You are counterdicting your self, how can you start this off as 'your religion' when referring to atheism just after you you self said atheism is not a religion[/QUOTE] I meant it as an example of someone asking you what your religion is, you wouldn't say "My religion is that I don't believe in the Greek gods" you'd just say "I don't have a religion", and the term to describe someone who doesn't have a religion is atheist. Again, atheists don't say "god doesn't exist" its just a term for someone with a lack of religious beliefs. [QUOTE=Strongbad;33056274]uh-huh. It's as much as to avoid offending religion as it is to avoid offending atheism, because atheists are just as ready as theists to bitch themselves hoarse because they don't like something. [/QUOTE] Well no, you can't really "offend atheism" because it's just a term to describe people who lack religious beliefs. You might be referring to "secularists" which are different. [quote]In addition to the fact that your argument is flimsy as a rope made of used chewing gum, you fail to realize that up til the seventeenth century, religion was an integral part of life for people.[/quote] Well you haven't really established why my argument is flimsy and on top of that you're misrepresenting what I'm saying so it really doesn't mean much to me to have you insult my argument. I never said anything about religion not being an integral part of human history, in fact I would be the first one to say the opposite is true. Religion has dominated humanity for thousands of years, no question. [quote]Rome was an empire founded off of religion.[/quote] And we're a nation founded off of secular ideas. The tyranny of church rule in England contributed hugely to the American Revolution and our founding fathers later establishing us as a secularist nation. [quote]Ghengis Khan called himself the "scourge of God." The fact of the matter is, brushing religion off as irrelevant is both ignorant and stupid. Atheism is a recent concept on the scale most people think of it today.[/quote] Good for Ghengis Khan. I can call myself the "scourge of the Flying Spaghetti Monster", it doesn't mean anything. Again, I never said religion was irrelevant, though I do feel it's both unnecessary and also harmful to humanity (for reasons I won't get into here because it's off-topic, but you can go see my thread "the logic behind religion" in the debates forum if you want to read more on that).

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33056285'] However, we simply use the Christianized 'God' and 'LORD' to refer to the very same god- which is in both Islam and Judaism. We have the same god, who we specifically refer to as God, with a capital G, and that is specifically written on our motto and in our anthem, can can be considered to be on our currency. In God we trust. We could easily just use "In Faith We Trust", or something similar, but we specify the use of the word GOD, which is a name, one specific to the Christian religion.[/QUOTE] [I]Capitalized, "God" was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept and may now signify any monotheistic conception of God, including the translations of the Arabic Allāh, Indic Ishvara and the African Masai Engai.[/I] Also the motto is in title case dumbass, every word is capitalized, but if you insist, why don't we recapitalize God in the pledge just to make you feel better? And it's bullshit what you said before, no where in any bible I've seen, Greek, Serbian, Russian or Western has it stated the name of god , they only refer to him in generic terms like 'God' or 'Lord' [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33056285']Arguing that it means gods in general or the god of any religion is arguing that we could say "In America We Trust" or the actually used "God bless America" and be referring to the Americas a s a whole, or Central America, or South America. The thing is even dumber when we use America when the continents are spelled as, I don't know, Amerika. "We spell it America but we obviously mean Amerika and America".[/QUOTE] To my knowlage the United States of America is the only nation to be named after 'America' [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];33056285']Tradition doesn't hold a candle to equality. Religion as a motto and preference of government seems obviously to ignore separation of church and state, and it specifically excludes 10% of our population, and even more if you accept that God refers to the Abrahamic or Christian god. Progress is progress because we progress, holding on to our old traditions that exclude, discriminate, or persecute wrongfully are the very things we need to change to fit the modern world.[/QUOTE] So why don't you go to France and demand they remove the black moor from the flag of Corsica, or go to Scandinavia and demand they remove the Christian crosses from their flags since those countries are far more progressive than America [editline]31st October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Noble;33056488]Wrong, it's not a belief that god doesn't exist. It's saying "prove god exists, and until you do, I have no reason to believe in it."[/QUOTE] Suuuureee... [QUOTE=Noble;33056488]Well again atheism isn't a belief system it's just a term that describes someone who lacks religious beliefs, no need to get all mad about it.[/QUOTE] Religion does not require deities to be a religion, Religion comes from the same latin word as 'regulation', and the word 'religion' doesn't even exist in some languages due to religion evolving out of the same word as 'law' was in the evolution of language [QUOTE=Noble;33056488]I meant it as an example of someone asking you what your religion is, you wouldn't say "My religion is that I don't believe in the Greek gods" you'd just say "I don't have a religion", and the term to describe someone who doesn't have a religion is atheist. Again, atheists don't say "god doesn't exist" its just a term for someone with a lack of religious beliefs.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Noble;33056488]Well no, you can't really "offend atheism" because it's just a term to describe people who lack religious beliefs. You might be referring to "secularists" which are different.[/QUOTE] If you can't offend atheism why do atheists demand the removal of religious articles that offend them due to holding atheist the belief that there is no god, and why does this article even exist then and why does 'God' need to be removed from the pledge and anthem? [editline]31st October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Strongbad;33056274]Rome was an empire founded off of religion[/QUOTE] No it wasn't or else it wouldn't have decided to randomly convert to Christianity from Roman paganism

[QUOTE=Paramud;33051371]I think you're taking two words a bit too seriously. Yes, they're completely unneeded, and an obvious stab atheism. And they do go against the reason why this country was founded. But it definitely isn't an establishment of a state religion, and I'm pretty damn sure that "mission statement" is extremely out of place here.[/QUOTE] Really? Was it Yahweh? Or Allah? It is bullshit cold war era mentality that is slowly destroying us as a nation. Our total inability to accept that socialism is the only way to proceed as a nation stems almost completely from the cold war and the social engineering that went along with it. "Under god" is just one small component of it. One we should be easily rid of. I use the term "mission statement" in reference to freedom of religion as well as freedom FROM religion. The Church of England, during our founding as a nation, was synonymous with the government of England at the time while much of Europe remained under the thumb of the Catholic church. This was recognized, correctly, as a serious problem and the nation was constructed to be religion neutral in order to mitigate the effects that an established religion would have on the population. [editline]31st October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Broseph_;33054935] Except the phase 'one nation, under god' is a bit vague qualify as a establishment of state religion due to the fact 'god' isn't exclusive to any one religion, and it states America is "under god" in a fashion that can be legally debated to be figurative and not literal which would be needed to equal a establishment [/QUOTE] "God" is the christian name for their god. It is different than Islam and Judaism, and fundamentally different than Hinduism and Buddhism. Not to mention the countless smaller religions, agnostics, and atheists out there. It was implemented to separate the US as being a Christian nation from the Atheist communists.

[QUOTE=Broseph_;33056505] Religion does not require deities to be a religion, Religion comes from the same latin word as 'regulation', and the word 'religion' doesn't even exist in some languages due to religion evolving out of the same word as 'law' was in the evolution of language[/quote] This is just arguing semantics and doesn't address my point. [quote]If you can't offend atheism why do atheists demand the removal of religious articles that offend them due to holding [b]atheist the belief that there is no god[/b], and why does this article even exist then and why does 'God' need to be removed from the pledge and anthem?[/quote] Well I'm not sure what is so complicated about this concept that atheism is not a religion but just a term to describe people who have an absence of belief that any deities exist. Perhaps maybe the word "skeptic" would be more clear for you, someone who doesn't believe in something until they have evidence for it. Like how I'm sure you don't believe in the tooth fairy because there is no evidence it exists, atheists choose not to believe in god for the same reason. The only difference is that we don't have a term to describe people who don't believe in the tooth fairy. Again the people you're referring to are secularists (and a lot of "skeptics"/atheists tend to be secularists, though religious people can be secularists also - its the concept of wanting government completely separate from religion), and the constitution does completely forbid establishment of a "national religion", or also preferring one religion over another (like the pledge and "in god we trust" preferring the Christian god over other religions). This country wasn't founded on Christian values, it was founded on secular ideas. I'm disappointed in this response from the government because it seems more like they just want to avoid offending people to secure a second term rather than take a stance on the issue and declare it unconstitutional (as it most certainly is).

[QUOTE=Broseph_;33056505][I]Capitalized, "God" was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept and may now signify any monotheistic conception of God, including the translations of the Arabic Allāh, Indic Ishvara and the African Masai Engai.[/I] Also the motto is in title case dumbass, every word is capitalized, but if you insist, why don't we recapitalize God in the pledge just to make you feel better? And it's bullshit what you said before, no where in any bible I've seen, Greek, Serbian, Russian or Western has it stated the name of god , they only refer to him in generic terms like 'God' or 'Lord' [/quote] Dumbass? Wow way to use personal attacks in an argument. Professionalism right here folks. The capital God is still specific to Judeo-Christianity and Islam, because God is the English replacement for Elohim and Yahweh. You are right, no bible pretty much since 2008 uses Yahweh, they all use LORD, but LORD is the Christian replacement for Yahweh- the Jewish books refer to him as Yahweh, and translations into English refer to him as Jehovah or Yahweh. Jehovah still appears in bibles used by Jehovah's Witnesses and Yahweh appeared in Roman Catholic Jerusalem bibles until 2008. So you are right, it has been changed since the originals. Still, Yahweh is God, and God is exclusive, as a name, to the Abrahamic god. And it is in all caps, but it comes directly form the line in the Star-Spangled Banner: "And this be our motto: In God is our Trust.", which is "God". It still is officially "God" in the pledge. [quote] To my knowlage the United States of America is the only nation to be named after 'America' [/quote] I was making the point that your logic of saying God=god=any religious god is as silly as saying America=Americas (the continents)=all the nations in the Americas. [quote] So why don't you go to France and demand they remove the black moor from the flag of Corsica, or go to Scandinavia and demand they remove the Christian crosses from their flags since those countries are far more progressive than America [/quote] Because that's not my country and that's not my issue currently. My immediate problem is with the country that I reside that is supposed to represent me.

I don't see what's so bad about it really, it's just a symbolic thing if anything IMO.

[QUOTE=The First 11'er;33019044]To be honest, this was a stupid position. Whether you are religious or a die-hard atheist, just because a pledge says "Under God" doesn't mean you need to petition for it to be removed. In 1776 we gained Independence from Britian, and back then there was almost no such thing as atheists. Everyone believed in someone up there, and if that's how our founding fathers felt, then I'm fine with it.[/QUOTE] did you seriously just say atheism didn't exist in the 18th century

[QUOTE=lavacano;33055340]I miss the days when people at grocery stores could say "Merry Christmas" without every non-Christian jumping down the throats of the whole fucking country.[/QUOTE] I think it's bull shit that people are forced to say "Happy Holidays!" If someone said "Merry Christmas" to me, I would just say "I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do thank you for your wishes!"

[QUOTE=lavacano;33055340]I miss the days when people at grocery stores could say "Merry Christmas" without every non-Christian jumping down the throats of the whole fucking country.[/QUOTE] No, large corporations decided to drop the term in order to gain more mass appeal all whilst making it look like they're the victim in the media. Don't buy into that shit. If they didn't pretend like it was because of the "big bad atheists" they'd be getting tons of shit from Christians, way more than secular advocates give. For example: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversy#Retailer_controversies[/url]

[QUOTE=lavacano;33055340]I miss the days when people at grocery stores could say "Merry Christmas" without every non-Christian jumping down the throats of the whole fucking country.[/QUOTE] As an atheist I am okay with with people wishing each other merry christmas. Next broad generalization for me to debunk please. [editline]31st October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Strongbad;33054667]What is our 'mission statement?' I thought it was to provide a place for anyone to live free of repression, be it religious, ethical or moral. Believe it or not, the reason America has such a statement is due to it's roots in religion. In any case, it's only intended as a 'jab at atheism' if you're really so sensitive and thin-skinned that the slightest mention of religion in an official document constitutes(see what I did there?) a direct insult against atheism(which didn't really exist in America when the pledge of allegiance was written on the scale it does today, so how could it be intended as a 'jab at atheism?') and against you personally.[/QUOTE] America does not have it's roots in religion. Not in the slightest.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;33058239]I think it's bull shit that people are forced to say "Happy Holidays!" If someone said "Merry Christmas" to me, I would just say "I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do thank you for your wishes!"[/QUOTE] How many times have you actually seen someone call out someone else for saying "Merry Christmas"? Sure, there are some people who say "Happy Holidays!" out of respect for people of other faiths, but by no means are they 'forced' to.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33058807]How many times have you actually seen someone call out someone else for saying "Merry Christmas"? Sure, there are some people who say "Happy Holidays!" out of respect for people of other faiths, but by no means are they 'forced' to.[/QUOTE] And, as I just pointed out, Christians get upset about "holidays" more frequently. :v:

[QUOTE=lavacano;33055340]I miss the days when people at grocery stores could say "Merry Christmas" without every non-Christian jumping down the throats of the whole fucking country.[/QUOTE] are you dumb store saying happy holidays is a fucking marketing decision. the war on christmas doesn't exist. stop perpetuating the persecution complex of the ruling class

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33019622]It's the principle of the thing. Whether or not it's commonly said is irrelevant, it's being ingrained in the framework of the system.[/QUOTE] We used to have to do it from elementary and forward until this year, something to do with this shit storm that is happening. They even ditched the school pledge because it contained the use of God in it once.

I would like for them to remove the under god from the pledge. Really, I dont care. Religous freedom is a constitutional right. If you are atheist, that shouldnt matter. If you are christian than it shouldnt matter. It seems like people on both sides of the theism fence make a huge shit over the pledge.