Donald Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51367023]I find it incredibly hypocritical that people are blaming the liberals for Trump for not properly arguing with Trump supporters when there are people in this thread who are spewing anti-gay deathsquad memes, insults, and not even providing an actual argument other than "IT'S STUPID".[/QUOTE] To be honest i'm finding the whole "liberals don't debate! they just label you and call you dumb!" thing pretty ironic considering that, for the last few years, anyone expressing an opinion people found to be too left wing online got labelled as an ~SJW~ and was often greeted by "lol triggered go back to tumblr" instead of genuine debate. There's definitely an unwillingness to communicate on both sides, but pinning it completely on ~the left calling people racist~ is just so disingenuous. Back on topic, Can I just ask exactly why we should trust what Trump is saying?, He lied [i]constantly[/i] throughout the elections, often going so far as to deny saying things mere hours after he posted them on twitter/was filmed saying them. Trump's word holds literally no weight for a lot of people- So his actions will have to suffice. Considering he's not actually in power yet, the only action we have to go on, at least when it comes to LGBT issues, is that he appointed a notoriously anti-gay politician as his VP. You have to remember that gay rights are a relatively recent thing, There are still people alive today who were around to see homosexuality being [i] illegal [/i], Some people even still have it on their criminal records. It's far from concretely embedded in society, and anti-gay sentiment is very much alive and well. These people have every right to feel vulnerable now that their most vocal opponents will soon run America, can you blame them for not trusting a politician (Donald Trump of all people) when he assures them they are going to be fine?. Right now- Trump is saying one thing, and his party has been saying the exact opposite for years. Nobody [i] knows [/i] what is going to happen, and that kind of uncertainty can be pretty damn terrifying when it concerns your rights.

[QUOTE=Covalent;51367099]I'm a man who wants to see it before they believe it, but I do think he will do it. This man is not the next LITERALLY Hitler, nor Satan. People need to stop this rioting, and violence.[/QUOTE] Pretty much this. Donald might not touch LGBT people's rights, but there is enough reasonable doubt to not take him on his word. I desperately want him to just leave them alone, and I'll be satisfied in his words if that happens. But to just think people should throw away common sense and think "Oh well he said it it must be right" is just stupidity.

All these after-election stuff(obamacare, wall's now fence, anti-gay VP, tho no anti-gay stuff) makes me wonder if Trump did use it as campaign tactics or Obama and some higher-ups gave him an earful at the White House

[QUOTE=OvB;51367103]It would be political suicide to try and undo same sex marriage laws.[/QUOTE] half the country just voted for him knowing exactly the sort of leadership he's appointing there are a lot of supposed lgbt supporters who don't actually give a shit and just pretend to not be bigots or apathetic of civil rights so that they don't immediately get piled upon in arguments for example, the people in this thread who immediately espouse his words as fact instead of his actions

I'm willing to toxx that gay marriage will not be overturned during Trump's presidency. The escape will be that I have to donate 20 dollars to an LGBT charity that fights against religious influence in politics. If I cannot find one, I'll donate to a regular LGBT charity. :toxx:

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51367169]I'm willing to toxx that gay marriage will not be overturned during Trump's presidency. The escape will be that I have to donate 20 dollars to an LGBT charity that fights against religious influence in politics. If I cannot find one, I'll donate to a regular LGBT charity. :toxx:[/QUOTE] lame as hell; you'll be long gone from this forum as your life goes on by then how about arguing against the many points made against your blind beliefs?

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;51367011]Literally already posted in the thread: [url]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/nov/03/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-donald-trump-wants-undo-marri/[/url] Feat. video of the Teflon Don himself.[/QUOTE] I'll note that as you move forward through those sources he goes from "i'm against it" to "My opinion is changing" to "It should be up to the states", and during this campaign to "We need to protect gays and minorities" in his policy speech and finally to "It's settled in law" Seems like a solid and gradual change of opinion and not a contradictive lie to me.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51367169]I'm willing to toxx that gay marriage will not be overturned during Trump's presidency. The escape will be that I have to donate 20 dollars to an LGBT charity that fights against religious influence in politics. If I cannot find one, I'll donate to a regular LGBT charity. :toxx:[/QUOTE] $20 is fucking nothing, I rather you argue instead of placing cheap bets.

He hasn't got any sort of incentive to fuck with lbgt rights, the religious right is never going to vote Democrat and are terrified of Democrats in general. He has no reason to from a "moral" aspect because not only does he clearly give no shit about "traditional marriage" but he is probably the least religious Republican that I know of.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51367169]I'm willing to toxx that gay marriage will not be overturned during Trump's presidency. The escape will be that I have to donate 20 dollars to an LGBT charity that fights against religious influence in politics. If I cannot find one, I'll donate to a regular LGBT charity. :toxx:[/QUOTE] Again, Marriage isn't the entirety of the gay rights movement, and overturning It isn't the only way the Republicans could discriminate against LGBT people. Maybe you should toxx that they will leave LGBT people alone completely, or better yet, actually debate the points being made against your position.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51367169]I'm willing to toxx that gay marriage will not be overturned during Trump's presidency. The escape will be that I have to donate 20 dollars to an LGBT charity that fights against religious influence in politics. If I cannot find one, I'll donate to a regular LGBT charity. :toxx:[/QUOTE] why don't you just donate instead

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51367198]I'll note that as you move forward through those sources he goes from "i'm against it" to "My opinion is changing" to "It should be up to the states", and during this campaign to "We need to protect gays and minorities" in his policy speech and finally to "It's settled in law" Seems like a solid and gradual change of opinion and not a contradictive lie to me.[/QUOTE] and promising to appoint a SC judge who wants to repeal marriage equality, only in the last two months, means nothing? promising to make one of the most infamously anti-LGBT politicians the most powerful VP in our history means nothing? words are wind; why are you not judging him by his actions?

[QUOTE=OvB;51367103]It would be political suicide to try and undo same sex marriage laws.[/QUOTE] Well 60 million people voted for him, his VP has been a staunch opponent of it (and basic LGBT civil rights in general) since he became a politician, and the whole appeal of him running in the first place was that he's supposedly "not a politician". Also, the rural United States made up most of his supporters, and they're usually your traditional Bible-beating conservatives who oppose same-sex marriage and LGBT rights on "moral" grounds. We don't know what's going to happen. That's the biggest issue. We elected a lying wildcard to the presidency, and the harshest lesson 2016 should've taught us by now is that anything can happen. Although the majority of Americans did not want him, a considerable number did. We have to beware of that.

[QUOTE=Durandal;51367202]He hasn't got any sort of incentive to fuck with lbgt rights, the religious right is never going to vote Democrat and are terrified of Democrats in general. He has no reason to from a "moral" aspect because not only does he clearly give no shit about "traditional marriage" but he is probably the least religious Republican that I know of.[/QUOTE] his whole strategy is drumming up fanaticism to gain power and money; you've been living under a rock if you think religious fervor isn't a huge political force in the US

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51366953]Even after knowing all this, if you still believe that LGBT folk have nothing to fear, then you have some serious empathy issues.[/QUOTE] "I dunno, the idea behind gay concentration camps is quite frankly ridiculous..." "What are you, a fucking sociopathic bigot?" Keep pulling the sociopath card pal, surefire way to get people to agree with you. /s

[QUOTE=bitches;51367215]words are wind; why are you not judging him by his actions?[/QUOTE] i've tried to get this across as well. until he starts doing things, judgment should be held in reserve.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51367169]I'm willing to toxx that gay marriage will not be overturned during Trump's presidency. The escape will be that I have to donate 20 dollars to an LGBT charity that fights against religious influence in politics. If I cannot find one, I'll donate to a regular LGBT charity. :toxx:[/QUOTE] 20 whole dollars?! USD??

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51367224]"I dunno, the idea behind gay concentration camps is quite frankly ridiculous..." "What are you, a fucking sociopathic bigot?" Keep pulling the sociopath card, surefire way to get people to agree with you mate /s[/QUOTE] Find me the post where I was talking about gay concentration camps [editline]3[/editline] Spoiler Alert: You won't because only 1 person brought it up because he loves strawmanning arguments before they even happen.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51367224]"I dunno, the idea behind gay concentration camps is quite frankly ridiculous..." "What are you, a fucking sociopathic bigot?" Keep pulling the sociopath card pal, surefire way to get people to agree with you. /s[/QUOTE] what is this stupid garbage? is your whole strategy in arguments to purposefully misrepresent what the other person is saying?

Remember guys, it's okay to tell people to not be concerned if it doesn't affect you!

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51367224]"I dunno, the idea behind gay concentration camps is quite frankly ridiculous..." "What are you, a fucking sociopathic bigot?" Keep pulling the sociopath card, surefire way to get people to agree with you mate /s[/QUOTE] Conversely, "I can sympathise with the fears of a marginalised group now that their most vocal opponents are set to have almost unchallenged power over them" "pffft look at this hysterical moron, what's next? crying about concentration camps and death squads!!!?" You guys aren't exactly looking set to make many friends either.

[QUOTE=bitches;51367219]his whole strategy is drumming up fanaticism to gain power and money; you've been living under a rock if you think religious fervor isn't a huge political force in the US[/QUOTE] They're probably going to vote for him regardless if he actually does anything they actually want or not because the alternative is "letting the bad Democrats push the gay agenda" they voted for a guy that is the antithesis of conservative Christian values the only way he could represent traditional Republican values less is if he was also secretly a trans woman who is also a lesbian

[QUOTE=bitches;51367183]lame as hell; you'll be long gone from this forum as your life goes on by then how about arguing against the many points made against your blind beliefs?[/QUOTE] I don't think Trump actually cares about the issue either way and he knows it's better for him politically if he keeps gay marriage. The big concern is gay marriage being overturned by new conservative justices of the supreme court but what people forget is that the deciding vote that made gay marriage a thing in the first place was cast by Kennedy, a Reagan conservative. Even if the entire supreme court suddenly hated gay marriage, who's going to file the lawsuit to challenge gay marriage and how will it get to SCOTUS in 4 years? I see your concerns about Pence and they are legitimate but as long as Pence is VP, I don't see how he could do anything about them. Even the RNC platform is against gay conversion camps. I know that conversion camps are messed up and I don't support using them but Pence can't really do anything other than cast a tiebreaking vote in case its needed.

[QUOTE=bitches;51367160]half the country just voted for him knowing exactly the sort of leadership he's appointing there are a lot of supposed lgbt supporters who don't actually give a shit and just pretend to not be bigots or apathetic of civil rights so that they don't immediately get piled upon in arguments for example, the people in this thread who immediately espouse his words as fact instead of his actions[/QUOTE] He's was Republican candidate. Gay marriage isn't on the radar (anymore) of big ticket issues for many, if not most Republicans. Republicans typically care less about social issues that don't affect them and more about things like immigration, defense, and the economy. The ones that do care are the evangelical Christians which think gayness is a sin and yadda yadda. [quote]there are a lot of supposed lgbt supporters who don't actually give a shit and just pretend to not be bigots or apathetic of civil rights so that they don't immediately get piled upon in arguments[/quote] That's basically the conservative stance if you're not an evangelical that actually cares deeply about it. No conservative I know in my south Texas neck of the woods voted for Trump to suppress the Gays. They voted for him because they think the economy, immigration, and defense are in shambles. (and that's why he won out in the Primaries against more social conservatives like Cruz) I dare say Trump was one of the more lenient GOP candidates on LGBT issues. It could've been: Cruz: [quote]Cruz referred to the Supreme Court's decision legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide as "among the darkest hours of our nation" and accused the court of judicial activism.[/quote] Carson: [quote] "Marriage is between a man and a woman. No group, be they gays, be they NAMBLA, be they people who believe in bestiality, it doesn't matter what they are. They don't get to change the definition."[/quote] Huckabee: [quote]In January 2015, he was quoted comparing homosexuality to "drinking and swearing"[/quote] Or god forbid, Santorum: [quote]In 2015, Santorum signed an online pledge vowing not to respect any law, including any decision by the United States Supreme Court, conferring legal recognition on same-sex marriage. In July 2015, Santorum reaffirmed his support for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage,[223] contending that ". . .we need a national standard for marriage."[/quote] Like, yeah Trumps a misguided idiot with an even more misguided idiot as a VP, but at least he's not a religiously motivated zealot. His history of flipping between Democrat and Republican should be a sign that he's flexible when it suits his needs. Not great, but could've easily been a lot worse is what I'm trying to say.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/uwaFiO3.png[/t] burger says: this isn't how you argue with someone [editline]34[/editline] Trump won't implement death camps ever. If Trump even proposed death camps there would be a coup in the government, as well as a very successful assassination attempt so it's absolutely stupid to bring it up unless you're meming (which is 99% of the time)

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51367262]I don't think Trump actually cares about the issue either way and he knows it's better for him politically if he keeps gay marriage. The big concern is gay marriage being overturned by new conservative justices of the supreme court but what people forget is that the deciding vote that made gay marriage a thing in the first place was cast by Kennedy, a Reagan conservative. Even if the entire supreme court suddenly hated gay marriage, who's going to file the lawsuit to challenge gay marriage and how will it get to SCOTUS in 4 years? I see your concerns about Pence and they are legitimate but as long as Pence is VP, I don't see how he could do anything about them. Even the RNC platform is against gay conversion camps. I know that conversion camps are messed up and I don't support using them but Pence can't really do anything other than cast a tiebreaking vote in case its needed.[/QUOTE] anti-gay camps are by far not what the LGBT community is most concerned about in most of the country it is still legal to be fired or denied housing for your sexuality, or even adopt children; how is any of this supposed to get better under such a presidency with half the population here not giving a shit about LGBT rights?

Trump was definitely less anti-LGBT than his competition in the Republican party but that's not impressive. He has genuinely only supported the idea that marriage is between a man and a woman and has flipped on the whole Supreme Court decision twice now. Regarding Pence not being able to do anything because VP, it's worth mentioning that Trump (supposedly) promised Kasich the most power VP appointment in history with a specific emphasis on domestic policy. Hearsay maybe, but then Pence comes out and talks about how he wants to be an active VP and sees Dick Cheney as a role model. Cheney being incredibly influential in the Bush administration.

[QUOTE=OvB;51367269]He's was Republican candidate. Gay marriage isn't on the radar (anymore) of big ticket issues for many, if not most Republicans. Republicans typically care less about social issues that don't affect them and more about things like immigration, defense, and the economy. The ones that do care are the evangelical Christians which think gayness is a sin and yadda yadda. That's basically the conservative stance if you're not an evangelical that actually cares deeply about it. No conservative I know in my south Texas neck of the woods voted for Trump to suppress the Gays. They voted for him because they think the economy, immigration, and defense are in shambles. (and that's why he won out in the Primaries against more social conservatives like Cruz) I dare say Trump was one of the more lenient GOP candidates on LGBT issues. It could've been: Cruz: Carson: Huckabee: Or god forbid, Santorum: Like, yeah Trumps a misguided idiot with an even more misguided idiot as a VP, but at least he's not a religiously motivated zealot. His history of flipping between Democrat and Republican should be a sign that he's flexible when it suits his needs. Not great, but could've easily been a lot worse is what I'm trying to say.[/QUOTE] I'm well aware that Trump isn't the worst the republicans have to offer, but my point was that people voting for him put their other concerns above basic civil rights. I don't think I'm crazy for thinking that LGBT rights are in jeopardy under a Trump presidency when at least half the voting population will put someone like Pence in power, even if only out of apathy for LGBT rights.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51367198]I'll note that as you move forward through those sources he goes from "i'm against it" to "My opinion is changing" to "It should be up to the states", and during this campaign to "We need to protect gays and minorities" in his policy speech and finally to "It's settled in law" Seems like a solid and gradual change of opinion and not a contradictive lie to me.[/QUOTE] I don't see "leave it to the states" as being an improvement. That's the typical Republican line. "It should be up to the state whether your basic freedoms are recognized." But I don't think you get to age 70 thinking marriage should stay traditional and then suddenly have a ~completely pure~ change of heart right when it's clear public opinion is on the other side. In fairness, I thought this about Hillary too. She spent quite a long time being anti-gay marriage, only to change her stance in the last couple of years. Made me sick when she posted a smug Tweet about it with some ridiculous rainbow gif. This wasn't your fight, Hillary. You don't get to switch teams in the final minutes and declare yourself the victor. You changed sides because it was beneficial.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;51366861]Half of you are either fools or fearmongers. "I'll believe it in four years." No, yeah, because the President can just, at will, overturn decisions made by the Supreme Court. Ok.[/QUOTE] By having a supreme court to overturn the decision. Which he is planning to fill with red anyway so even if hes out of office, it can do damage till they are out.