Activist removes Confederate Flag in South Carolina - Polidicks

[QUOTE=bdd458;48075992]Well, if people want the symbol to change; why can't it change? Actual question here.[/QUOTE] Because it's stood for racism since it was created. It's a country that no longer exists. The US flag has changed meaning dozens of times. It was about manifest destiny - we don't do much colonizing anymore. It changes all the time. Why? It's a living country that changes views and adapts and grows. The confederate battle flag stands for a dead rebellion that can [I]never[/I] adapt to the future or change their views. The Confederacy's beliefs are set in stone - there is no Confederate states to go out and say "we made a mistake, we're sorry." They fought to the end to protect slavery. It's like asking why the Swastika can't change and be used to mean peace and love. Because it's irreversibly tied to a very harmful and disgusting era in history. The ISIS flag will never mean "Arabian heritage and pride," it's cemented in history as the flag of murderers and people fighting against progress. The swastika stands for gassing minorities systematically to make a pure race. The ISIS flag stands for beheading journalists and blowing up historical monuments and slaughtering people. The confederate flag stands not only for protecting the rights of people to [I]own other human beings as property[/I], but also for groups of people who systematically lynched and hanged black people and then had barbecues to celebrate.

I can't believe that so much attention has been diverted to a flag. Do people think suppressing a symbol will in any way impact racism or mental health issues?

[QUOTE=bdd458;48075992]Well, if people want the symbol to change; why can't it change? Actual question here. Like I don't think it should be on the State Capitol but what if people really wanted to change the symbol to meaning something else?[/QUOTE] and conveniently try to change the history or purpose of the csa? no, lol.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48076079]and conveniently try to change the history or purpose of the csa? no, lol.[/QUOTE] Change its meaning to serve as a symbol of what happens when you mess with 'merica, then they can be patriotic [I]and[/I] remember their history, it's a win-win! :v:

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48075690]Letting racists keep their favourite symbol flying high just so they don't get ticked off and start shooting people is the very definition of kowtowing to violent racists. As a society, we shouldn't tolerate that.[/quote] No we shouldn't tolerate people becoming vile bastards, and as such we punish them when they do. Likewise, we don't go about censoring things because of a small group of extremist, as regardless of someone beliefs or views, it's freedom of expression. We haven't gone after groups like the US Nazi Party or Ku Klux Klan from holding rallies, as they only rally behind their ideas and images. When they do something which is against the law universally(assault, murder, ect), they are arrested. That is the point of being equal. You have the right to express your ideas, but do not break the law. [QUOTE=Zeke129;48075690]Dylann's manifesto is a total moot point. The shit he wrote is only barely different from the shit you write.[/QUOTE] His manifesto is referable because when it's spread far and wide by the media in an attempt to state, "look how crazy this guy is!" which all though he is, you inadvertently spread his words to like-minded people who may become more radicalized after finding some sort of meaning within recent events and the manifesto. Also, why ad hominem? [QUOTE=Ownederd;48075767]why do you think people don't openly display ISIS flags on their porch? ask yourself that. csa: (defunct) rectionary rebellion isis: rectionary rebellion and terrorist group put the pieces together[/QUOTE] I have seen quiet a few people hang the ISIS flag, and considering they are used in widespread in places like Europe, I fail to see the point. [QUOTE=Zero-Point;48075939]"they are always thinking about the fact that they are black" "think that some thing are intended to be racist towards them, [highlight]even when a white person wouldn't be thinking about race[/highlight]" Kid was a white supremacist who believed that black people don't deserve the same rights as we do because they're "not as good" as white people, yup black folks sure do think about race all the time when white folk don't yessir. I think that you would take any sort of validity from this bigot's ramblings is awfully damning. I mean I don't think they should ban the flag out-right either, but to give that creep any credence in an argument to keep the flag flying just so the racists don't get pissy is pretty fucked dude.[/QUOTE] Yeah the guy is an absolute cunt, and I would never agree with him if I had to sign a deal with the devil even. I'm worried about people doing more church arson attacks or going about attacking people on the basis of whatever meaning they find in reference to either the CSA flag or Dylann's manifesto. I'm not trying to give him credence either, I'm worried people will read his manifesto and try to tie it into current events in some conspiracy nut fashion, and go about on some rampage or do more church arson attacks. I'm sorry if it's coming across wrong, but I don't want to see more attacks, and with how things are already heated at the moment, I believe that trying to push anything at the moment outside of possibly making heads roll for the 4473 failure and confiscation of firearms per felony charges isn't the best of ideas. [QUOTE=Starlight 456;48075941]Did the government order it removed? no? Then it isn't censorship. So far, every single removal has been an activist (in the case of this flag) or a private entity [I][U]willingly removing[/U][/I] from sale or display. Agree with it or not, but censorship is not a word that applies in any of these cases. If the US government gives an order to remove all confederate flags from wherever they're being flown, then you have an argument.[/QUOTE] You are right that censorship may not be the best word, but some people at the moment are proposing legislation to outright remove Confederate flags outside of museums and the like. Once again, I don't think the average person will give a shit, but people are already freaking out and fire-bombing churches. It's something which shouldn't be taken lightly, and I still believe their are things which are far more important in regards to the ongoing case of Dylann.

[QUOTE=hrak;48076066]I can't believe that so much attention has been diverted to a flag. Do people think suppressing a symbol will in any way impact racism or mental health issues?[/QUOTE] No, they don't. The guy got arrested and now people are speaking out about how the racist icon he worshipped (more or less) is being flown on government property. Even disregarding the racism part, there's not really any decent reason to keep the flag up. It's upsetting people, and it's entirely possible to have a Confederate soldier memorial without using their flag.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48076160]No we shouldn't tolerate people becoming vile bastards, and as such we punish them when they do. Likewise, we don't go about censoring things because of a small group of extremist, as regardless of someone beliefs or views, it's freedom of expression. [b]We haven't gone after groups like the US Nazi Party or Ku Klux Klan from holding rallies, as they only rally behind their ideas and images.[/b] When they do something which is against the law universally(assault, murder, ect), they are arrested. That is the point of being equal. You have the right to express your ideas, but do not break the law.[/quote] We sure as hell would go after their symbols if they managed to get them up on government buildings. Go petition to get a Swastika up at the local park and see how far it goes. [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48076160]His manifesto is referable because when it's spread far and wide by the media in an attempt to state, "look how crazy this guy is!" which all though he is, you inadvertently spread his words to like-minded people who may become more radicalized after finding some sort of meaning within recent events and the manifesto. [/quote] His supposed radicalization was a manifesto filled with "race-realist" bullshit screed I see on Facepunch and Reddit every single day. Chunks of that manifesto could have been next to any Facepunch right-winger's avatar and eyes would roll for a while but nobody would be concerned about them becoming violent. Setting this guy off wasn't necessary for him to spread his bullshit because tens of thousands of people [i]right now[/i] are openly spreading the same bullshit on internet message boards under the guise of valid political discourse.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;48075690]Letting racists keep their favourite symbol flying high just so they don't get ticked off and start shooting people is the very definition of kowtowing to violent racists. As a society, we shouldn't tolerate that. Dylann's manifesto is a total moot point. The shit he wrote is only barely different from the shit you write.[/QUOTE] That's the thing though, what does all this bullshit around the flag actually achieve aside from provoking them? You haven't answered my question. If all your acts result in is more violence being committed then what's the point exactly?

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48072006]The three things which actually piss me off is that with all the systems we supposedly have in place with the FBI, NSA, CIA, ATF, and otherwise, did not work and did not protect us in this case from a madman who was openly preparing for some form of attack.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;48072168]It's because the NSA thinks the only terrorists are in the Middle East.[/QUOTE] Actually, it's because their job is explicitly foreign intelligence, and they are legally not permitted to direct their capabilities at Americans on American soil. That's 100% the FBI's job. Joe, of the agencies you listed only the ATF and FBI have any relevance because those are the only two that operate within the US. Since the ATF doesn't do active investigation not related to arms trafficking, that leaves basically just the FBI, and they're far from perfect. This guy didn't do anything that would bring their attention and apparently nobody reported him to the FBI, so it's not surprising that they didn't catch him. The system works when people actually report their friend or neighbor who's acting strangely, but when someone doesn't set off any red flags and doesn't get reported by the people around them, what do you expect?

When issues like this come up everyone is saying its not guns/the flag/video games it's our failed mental health system. What kind of system should we have, and is there a model country that has drastically lowered their mental health related crimes and suicides? As I was working yesterday I must have heard a half dozen advertisements for seeking medical help and counseling for depression, anxiety and anger problems from a local mental health facility. The problem with mental help is that there isn't help, but that people who need it won't use it. The only thing I could imagine would be mandatory mental health screenings but that would never go over well here I think.