Scientist makes first synthetic life, consensus complete.
175 replies, posted
We should all agree that replacing your brain, with a machine wouldn't be you anymore. But what if we replaced a tenth of it, then another tenth, piece by piece over a period of 10 months. Would it still be you at the end? Provided we copied your memories to your brain.
:monocle:
[QUOTE=Splurgy;22067010]Not really. It has something to do with particles and observations but physics in general is buried under a thick haze for me.
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2009/aug/26/entropy-time-arrow-quantum-mechanics]I found the article in question, but I think I got the wrong end of the stick.[/url]
I looked on Wikipedia, and it had information about long term potentiation and neuronal connectivity, but I'm still failing to grasp exactly how discrete things like the smell of an apple pie or that time when your brother used your voice recording pen without your permission and recorded over that clip of West Side Story off of GMTV that you were going to play to your Mum when she got in can be stored. It says stuff about connections between neurones but what makes neurones capable of storing information? [b]They're just cells that you can electrically excite[/b], and they're nerves and whatnot. How do they store things?[/QUOTE]
Also see: Solid State Disk Drive. Obviously it's really different and what not how the brain parses the info stored there, but at the basic level it's really the same.
[QUOTE=petieng;22066904]Obviously it's hard to speculate on something that doesn't exist yet, but my view of mind uploading that does not involve 'death' would be a computer that handles the process of my brain in the exact way my brain did, but through silicon or whatever, not organic molecules. It would not be a software simulation.
All I see from the Chinese room argument is that the Turing test and therefore current concept of 'strong AI' is misplaced, because the machine does not necessarily need a mind. The whole idea of mind uploading is [I]giving[/I] the machine a mind.[/QUOTE]
That does make more sense I guess - you're just patching up bits of the brain so it lasts longer! I guess the phrase "upload" invokes images of ftp folders and internet explorer for me. :v:
[editline]08:20PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;22067047]Also see: Solid State Disk Drive.[/QUOTE]
But I don't understand how that works either! D:
[QUOTE=Kybalt;22067026]We should all agree that replacing your brain, with a machine wouldn't be you anymore. But what if we replaced a tenth of it, then another tenth, piece by piece over a period of 10 months. Would it still be you at the end? Provided we copied your memories to your brain.[/QUOTE]
Then you'd just get retarded, vegetative, and then die as the clone was made.
[QUOTE=Splurgy;22067052]That does make more sense I guess - you're just patching up bits of the brain so it lasts longer! I guess the phrase "upload" invokes images of ftp folders and internet explorer for me. :v:
[editline]08:20PM[/editline]
[b]But I don't understand how that works either! D:[/b][/QUOTE]
Quite simply, billions of on and off switches. These can then be read by your computer, and based on how it's supposed to understand whatever data, be interpreted. Of course, we designed how the PC understands what data, but the brain just evolved this, however, it's quite similar in the end, correct me if I am wrong here FP.
[editline]03:24PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;22067091]Then you'd just get retarded, vegetative, and then die as the clone was made.[/QUOTE]
Why? What if we replaced brains cell by cell with identically functional, but machine copies of cells?
Could really use one that consume oil right about now...
[QUOTE=bravehat;22066592]Well its "you" in the loosest term, it's not you because your [B]awareness [/B] of yourself dies at that point in time. It is a copy of you, but you the current you, will never exist again just a perfect copy that's is aware of itself and the transition to you, but it will know the difference.[/QUOTE]
No, IT won't be able to see the difference. As far as the copy is concerned, it's going on with life just as before, but the original is dead and gone, forever.
[B]Edit:
[/B]This, actually, is the same problem faced with teleportation.
[QUOTE=Splurgy;22066655]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room]Ok, but this[/url][/QUOTE]
It can be extended from the same standpoint that we ourselves aren't conscious because the devices which process our thoughts (specifically, synapses) do not understand what they are doing, and simply send signals when given the right stimuli. If so, why bother worrying if the robot is or isn't thinking?
[QUOTE=Kybalt;22067107]
Why? What if we replaced brains cell by cell with identically functional, but machine copies of cells?[/QUOTE]
Misread it, we were talking about moving the thoughts over to a separate brain.
Science is going really fast, in my mind
[QUOTE=3viLoc1Ty;22067174]No, IT won't be able to see the difference. As far as the copy is concerned, it's going on with life just as before, but the original is dead and gone, forever.
[B]Edit:
[/B]This, actually, is the same problem faced with teleportation.[/QUOTE]
It will see the difference, because it suddenly becomes self aware.
[QUOTE=Splurgy;22067052]That does make more sense I guess - you're just patching up bits of the brain so it lasts longer! I guess the phrase "upload" invokes images of ftp folders and internet explorer for me. :v:
[editline]08:20PM[/editline]
But I don't understand how that works either! D:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I agree that some kind of simulation in the case of the Chinese room machine would not be me.
I think it would only be me if the brain was completely understood and so could be created physically, using non-biological methods. (Or just a biological computer that does not degrade.) The would be no difference in the way thoughts were processed, so they only thing that could be absent is a soul, if you believe one exists.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;22067021]Your consciousness is copied, not transferred. From your own perspective, you would cease to exist, but the clone would swear that it was successful.[/QUOTE]
And that clone would be me. It's just like cloning but using different materials. My brain isn't made of the same particles it was a few years ago, but I haven't died since then. If the brain was copied exactly, every single neuron replaced with something that did the same job in exactly the same way, it [I]is[/I] my mind.
I don't dispute your physical body would die, I just don't see the chemical make-up of a person as being that individual. I don't think that if somebody medically dies and is resuscitated, that they wake up as a different person, or that if you replace someone's limb with a prosthetic that less of them exists.
The same applies to the brain. It's nothing mystical it's just a computer that we don't fully understand yet, and if it's processes can be fully recreated, not [I]simulated[/I] then that person's mind exists in the recreation.
[QUOTE=bravehat;22067410]It will see the difference, because it suddenly becomes self aware.[/QUOTE]
But it has the person's memories, so from it's perspective, everything worked fine.
[editline]07:47PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=petieng;22067477]
And that clone would be me. It's just like cloning but using different materials. My brain isn't made of the same particles it was a few years ago, but I haven't died since then. If the brain was copied exactly, every single neuron replaced with something that did the same job in exactly the same way, it [I]is[/I] my mind.
I don't dispute your physical body would die, I just don't see the chemical make-up of a person as being that individual. I don't think that if somebody medically dies and is resuscitated, that they wake up as a different person, or that if you replace someone's limb with a prosthetic that less of them exists.
The same applies to the brain. It's nothing mystical it's just a computer that we don't fully understand yet, and if it's processes can be fully recreated, not [I]simulated[/I] then that person's mind exists in the recreation.[/QUOTE]
But your consciousness would end. Everyone else, including the clone, wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but you'd simply cease to exist.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;22067581]But it has the person's memories, so from it's perspective, everything worked fine.[/QUOTE]
Yes but it's still not you.
Think of it this way, there's no way to transfer consciousness around. If we move a mind from a brain into a machine, it is like putting the body and brain into a vegetative state. It may simply kill the mind of that body and the brain may compensate by creating a new mind, like you've just been born, who knows.
But you will never fully capture the mind it will be soulless.
Looks like 2010 is going to be a good year for science.
[QUOTE=bravehat;22067641]Yes but it's still not you.
Ok think of it this way. I'm gonna use questionable terminology here, I'm gonna use the word soul[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know that. Your consciousness will end, but since the clone has your memories, it will swear that it continued.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;22067708]Yes, I know that. Your consciousness will end, but since the clone has your memories, it will swear that it continued.[/QUOTE]
Where is this "conciousness" stored if it's not in the mind? If the whole mind is copied, why isn't the conciousness?
[QUOTE=Mingebox;22067708]Yes, I know that. Your consciousness will end, but since the clone has your memories, it will swear that it continued.[/QUOTE]
yes of course it would, but you don't, not really, you have a soulless copy of you.
[QUOTE=bravehat;22067792]yes of course it would, but you don't, not really, you have a soulless copy of you.[/QUOTE]
A soul is superstition. If you believe one exists then I can see you would be naturally believe the mind cannot be copied and still be you.
If a soul does exist I see no way it can exist outside of the mind, and therefore be left behind if the mind were replicated.
Ok, here's the problem.
If YOU upload something to your brain that ERASES it, and upload an EXACT COPY, it will be YOU, but it will be a different CONSCIOUSNESS. The moment you upload it, your consciousness will be terminated. You will NEVER experience ANYTHING after that.
May 20, 2010, a glorious day for mankind
[QUOTE=Foda;22065669]faster than normal light speed. if you go by mass effect's reasoning, if you increase the speed of light, you can then travel at the old speed of light (because you decrease the mass of a volume of space via element zero).[/QUOTE]
Did you just quote that from Mass Effect? Read real books next time, just don't hurt yourself.
Oh Yeah, obligatory science graphic:
[IMG]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab277/dipshitcorn/science004.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=geel9;22067890]Ok, here's the problem.
If YOU upload something to your brain that ERASES it, and upload an EXACT COPY, it will be YOU, but it will be a different CONSCIOUSNESS. The moment you upload it, your consciousness will be terminated. You will NEVER experience ANYTHING after that.[/QUOTE]
Your brain cells are respiring , their molecules constantly being replaced. It is not physically the same as it was yesterday. Does my conciousness 'leak away' as my brain gets replaced?
[QUOTE=petieng;22067867]A soul is superstition. If you believe one exists then I can see you would be naturally believe the mind cannot be copied and still be you.
If a soul does exist I see no way it can exist outside of the mind, and therefore be left behind if the mind were replicated.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe in a supernatural soul, but I believe there there is a certain quality where a copied, machine reproduced mind just can't compare, that there will be something just not there about it.
[QUOTE=Johnnsen;22065090]I doubt mankind can be responsible with creating life.[/QUOTE]
It's going to take years before this is put to any use if at all.
[QUOTE=petieng;22067985]Your brain cells are respiring , their molecules constantly being replaced. It is not physically the same as it was yesterday. Does my conciousness 'leak away' as my brain gets replaced?[/QUOTE]
That's not a bulk removal though, and those cells are never turned off, as soon as they divide or reproduce, the job is switched over.
[QUOTE=bravehat;22067991]I don't believe in a supernatural soul, but I believe there there is a certain quality where a copied, machine reproduced mind just can't compare, that there will be something just not there about it.[/QUOTE]
Something not 'being there' is superstitious. If everything about the brain is being replicated exactly, down to the most fundamental level of processing (whatever that may be), how can there be a difference in the resulting thoughts, outside of physical reality?
[editline]09:06PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=bravehat;22068038]That's not a bulk removal though, and those cells are never turned off, as soon as they divide or reproduce, the job is switched over.[/QUOTE]
So instead, every time cell reproduction is supposed to occur, the job is switched over to an artificial component with an identical purpose. Does my conciousness still cease?
Goddamm sploicers!
[QUOTE=bravehat;22067991]I don't believe in a supernatural soul, but I believe there there is a certain quality where a copied, machine reproduced mind just can't compare, that there will be something just not there about it.[/QUOTE]
The whole situation is one where you're copying the entire brain, disregarding our current technological inabilities to do so. That only leaves the possibility that if something's left behind, it's supernatural.
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