Supreme Court upholds Michigan ban on affirmative action. - Polidicks

3[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;44619520]If I (white guy) had better qualifications than a black guy and we were to apply for the same job and he got the job just because he is black, that is racism. To anyone who rated dumb, care to explain?[/QUOTE] And if it were black people who were in the better position and you were institutionally disadvantaged, then you would be favored. But that is not the case. You don't receive institutional racism. Perhaps classism, not racism though. If you get fucked once in your life because of your race, then you're still probably at an advantaged position. Sorry, but that's how it works- when there is scarcity, then you don't have enough for everyone. When we're seeking to end the exploitation of one class, then the other class needs to give something up in order to be equal- you can't share what is controlled completely by one class. I know it sounds like shit, but from my position of a low-class individual who is disadvantaged because of my lack of opportunity, I honestly don't care if some rich fuck who has more merit than me gets into school or not, because he's going to have more opportunities. He's had opportunities all his life. Does that suck for him? Sure, but as far as I'm concerned it's time that the lesser-off get their share, and it might as well be in a way that matters. And beyond that, the more disadvantaged people who are educated, the less disadvantaged people there will be. The great equalizer, the break in the chain of poverty, is through affirmative action. Down the road there will no longer be a need for it, hopefully. Then we can decide purely based on merit. But that time isn't now and it won't be for a long time, I'm afraid. It's not racism, however, because you are not being disadvantaged against because you are white, someone else is being advantaged because they are non-white. And that means that someone who is white isn't going to get the place they might deserve. But you got to that place on the same society that puts the colored person down, and there's a good chance that you got to that place at the expense of colored people. Most white folks today are in the position they're in at the expense of black folks back then, and that's the same condition that put black folks today where they are. The system was fucked a long time ago, if white people need to make some sacrifices to un-fuck it then so be it.

It's easier to look at it like this: affirmative action isn't disadvantaging white people. It attempts to rectify an unfair advantage.

[QUOTE=sgman91;44620361]So why aren't all these racists being convicted under the already existing laws against racism? I'm sure there are tons of lawyers that would take the jobs with zero up front fee. Racism is a great way to get big settlements.[/QUOTE] It's also very hard to prove institutional racism because you can't pin it on one person, or one specific point in time or one specific event or action. It's not something you can sue for or win a lawsuit with, it's a societal system where individuals aren't the ones doing wrong, it's the system itself and passive acceptance and benefit from it. Sometimes [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/business/wells-fargo-to-settle-mortgage-discrimination-charges.html?_r=0"]you can find culprits[/URL], and they are brought [URL="https://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/morgan-stanley-sued-racial-discrimination-pushing-predatory-loans-black-homeowners"]to court and tried[/URL]. More often than not, no one is actively discriminating anymore, but through policy, custom, legal and social and economic barriers, and sometimes even geographic ones, there is a discriminatory system.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44620425']It's also very hard to prove institutional racism because you can't pin it on one person, or one specific point in time or one specific event or action. It's not something you can sue for or win a lawsuit with, it's a societal system where individuals aren't the ones doing wrong, it's the system itself and passive acceptance and benefit from it. Sometimes [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/business/wells-fargo-to-settle-mortgage-discrimination-charges.html?_r=0"]you can find culprits[/URL], and they are brought [URL="https://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/morgan-stanley-sued-racial-discrimination-pushing-predatory-loans-black-homeowners"]to court and tried[/URL]. More often than not, no one is actively discriminating anymore, but through policy, custom, legal and social and economic barriers, and sometimes even geographic ones, there is a discriminatory system.[/QUOTE] Racism must always come down to individuals making choices. This is the part I don't understand: "More often than not, no one is actively discriminating anymore, but through policy, custom, legal and social and economic barriers, and sometimes even geographic ones, there is a discriminatory system." Discrimination is, by definition, something done by a person to another person. An inequality in economic situation, for example, that causes difficulty in, let's say, buying a car and therefore getting a job is not discriminatory unless another person directly caused the lack of money to occur through their explicit discriminatory action. To argue that EVERY inequality is discriminatory is clearly absurd. Is the child who doesn't excel at math being discriminated against by those who do?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620440]What about poor white people? The same white kids that go to the same schools as the poor blacks, and poor latinos? You're not removing an unfair advantage, you're giving one out. By telling schools and businesses "you must hire/admit x number of blacks/latinos/asians" you're not taking into account the fact that not every white guy was born with a silver spoon, being white now isn't like being white in the 60's, you don't just get a job because "oh the other applicants were black, you're white so you win!".[/QUOTE] A white person automatically holds certain advantages over any black person. But affirmative action also applies to class, gender, etc. You have to take into account the different identities and factors that play into each person's situation. If you compare an impoverished white man living in a rural area to a rich black man living in a suburban area, both might hold certain advantages over the other in different ways. Each deserves to be afforded certain rights to make up for the deficiencies that society has afforded them.

I'm opposed to affirmative action, but I think shutting down affirmative action policies should be accompanied by initiatives to help eliminate inequality from the bottom up. Making sure everyone is receiving the same quality of education according to their needs, as well as ensuring that people have at the very least a minimum level of access to important resources such as libraries and the internet.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620532] You keep saying "certain advantages" What "certain advantages" is a poor white kid going to hold over a poor black kid? They both have shitty education, both have less than perfect home life, and both have piss poor prospects for the future. white people".[/QUOTE] [url]http://news.yahoo.com/white-high-schooler-returns-scholarship-intended-black-students-223410181--abc-news-topstories.html[/url] Imagine a "Whites Only" scholarship. Felt obligated to give it back despite earning it because of his race.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620532]Yes, we should give advantages to the poor minorities, and not the poor white kid, because he's privileged, right? You know how many scholarships there are, designed specifically for "minorities", several, you know how many there are specifically for whites? None. There's money out there for the ones who actually want to go to school, schools can't legally discriminate and tell them "no". Or is that not enough of an even playing field?[/quote] Look at it this way: there are also scholarships given out specifically to lower class students regardless of race. Who do you think gets more of these? Whites or blacks? White people don't need scholarships based on their race because whites aren't discriminated against or disadvantaged. Black people are. [quote]You keep saying "certain advantages" What "certain advantages" is a poor white kid going to hold over a poor black kid? They both have shitty education, both have less than perfect home life, and both have piss poor prospects for the future.[/quote] A white person won't carry around a "ghetto" or "thug" label intrinsically like a lower class black person would. At any job, a white person is going to be considered over a black person even if their qualifications were the same. I already mentioned scholarships. The list goes on. [quote]Affirmative action is NOTHING more than telling the majority "yea so, we know you worked hard to get here, but you're going to have to fuck off because we can't hire/admit anymore white people".[/QUOTE] Maybe I can solve your whole problem right here: white people/men/the upper class/straight people/whatever privileged group DIDN'T work hard to gain the privileges they hold. That's what affirmative action tries to fix.

Affirmative action should exist on a case-by-case basis, and be based on non-inherent factors, such as income, deposition, or anything that would cause actual, real problems. Not race. [editline]22nd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Explosions;44620586] A white person won't carry around a "ghetto" or "thug" label intrinsically like a lower class black person would. At any job, a white person is going to be considered over a black person even if their qualifications were the same. I already mentioned scholarships. The list goes on. [/QUOTE] Uuh, except that's fucking wrong, if you act like a ghetto piece of shit you're going to be treated like one, no matter the race. Trash exists across all races, and the trash label isn't bound to income either- it's how the person presents themselves.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620604]Also, can you actually PROVE that a black is going to be considered a "less worthy" candidate for a job? Or are you just saying that because in your world white people have to be the bad guy.[/quote] It has nothing to do with good or bad, or someone's intentions. It has to do with societal factors that inherently, sometimes subconsciously, result in an unfair advantage for whites. I could be the biggest proponent of equal rights in the world and I'd still have an advantage if I was white. [quote]Also "whites not being disadvantaged" yes, tell that to the kid who's living on food stamps and barely has shoes on his feet. Christfuck its like you think that being white automatically grants you a middle class income and perfect family. There is such a think as a disadvantaged white, they do exist, and the fact that you're saying "well fuck them because their white" is pretty shit.[/QUOTE] That situation would have nothing to do with the kid being white though. A black kid in a similar situation would likely be there because he is black. That is the difference.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620014]You can fire people who are blatantly denying applications based upon race. Almost every other form of "racism" is already illegal under federal law. Or you can keep band-aiding the issue and being racist against the majority. You know.. because that's totally a great way to stop people from being racist.[/QUOTE] well unfortunately a lot of prejudice isn't very blatant

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620656]SOMETHING happened to put him in that situation.[/QUOTE] maybe something like historical institutionalized racism that created a disparity between races in social standing, which is what affirmative action seeks to bridge; to "redress the disadvantages associated with overt historical discrimination" "historical" referring to something like less than 100 years ago

[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;44619520]If I (white guy) had better qualifications than a black guy and we were to apply for the same job and he got the job just because he is black, that is racism. To anyone who rated dumb, care to explain?[/QUOTE] most affirmative action is only between equally qualified applicants

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44620700]most affirmative action is only between equally qualified applicants[/QUOTE] Do you have a basis for this claim? Very rarely are people exactly, equally, qualified under any circumstances. Hiring very rarely, if ever, comes down to a coin flip.

[QUOTE=sgman91;44620707]Do you have a basis for this claim? Very rarely are people exactly, equally, qualified under any circumstances. Hiring very rarely, if ever, comes down to a coin flip.[/QUOTE] being "qualified" is extremely subjective so there's margins of overlap.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44620856]being "qualified" is extremely subjective so there's margins of overlap.[/QUOTE] I see no logical or evidential basis for your claim. Whether it's 100% objective or 100% subjective is irrlevant to the fact that people are essentially never exactly the same in any way, whether in experience, or temperament, or background, or any other factor.

[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;44619520]If I (white guy) had better qualifications than a black guy and we were to apply for the same job and he got the job just because he is black, that is racism. To anyone who rated dumb, care to explain?[/QUOTE] Can you please find me an example of a clearly unqualified black person getting hired over a clearly more qualified white person? You people treat AA as if its some legally compelling quota that forces employers to go "sorry even though you are the best candidate for the job we have too many white people sorry sucker" when that doesnt happen at all.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620358]You're not creating equal opportunity if you're telling a qualified employee/student "sorry, we can't take you, our quota of white folks is full".[/QUOTE] Dude you're fucking stupid and you need to brush up on your court cases The "quota system" you keep spouting on about was struck down in SCOTUS years ago [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;44620697]By being racist. A good idea, lets do it, that'll totally solve the problem for the future right? It's not like people aren't going to be bitter that they were turned away because of their race.. right? Fixing racial inequality by implementing GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED racism, is fucking retarded, this isn't the 60's anymore, there aren't jim crow laws to fight, we need to stop acting like it's 50 years in the past and come back to 2014.[/QUOTE] Please don't compare "boo hoo those darn MINORITIES are taking our jobs" with actual racism and Jim Crow laws It's not racism. The fact that you're so angry about this and constantly assume that the minority party after the same job as you is less qualified is just more proof that real racism still exists

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;44619258]Saying you only need 70 percent of a score and setting a lower bar is not equality. It's saying other races can't do as well and need a stool lol.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Venezuelan;44619442]that's, uh, not what affirmative action is?[/QUOTE] Alot of the times it is. On school forms they even point on the lower requirements for visible minorities.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;44621796]Can you please find me an example of a clearly unqualified black person getting hired over a clearly more qualified white person? You people treat AA as if its some legally compelling quota that forces employers to go "sorry even though you are the best candidate for the job we have too many white people sorry sucker" when that doesnt happen at all.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately, it actually does happen. I live and work in Detroit. Not suburban Detroit, but the city itself. When we had to go through our hiring process, we were told there were quotas of [B]race[/B] that we had to abide by. We have to hire a set amount of white and non-white people. Notice I didn't say a set amount of low-socioeconomic status people, we literally had to offset the number ratio of white people by hiring non-white people. You might think I'm lying just to further my position, but you'll have to believe me when I say I'm not. Is it right? No. Is it even legal? Probably not. And while this isn't because of an AA law per say, it does have the same sort of concept as AA, which is why I am opposed to it. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] To give insight as to what I do, I am a residential advisor in one of the housing buildings at one of the universities in the city. I have a lot of experience so I get to help in the hiring of new RAs for the next year. It's an unwritten rule that there can only be one white RA every other floor, and no more than half of the RAs can be white. So while most of the RAs are white, we have to choose blacks and asians and indians simply because they are not white, and while they aren't under qualified, I have had to choose them instead of a more qualified white person simply because we have too many white people. And before anyone blows up on me about quotas being illegal and this isn't affirmative action, bla bla bla, I know. I realize America doesn't use the quota system anymore and I realize that the whole thing going on where I work is not legal, but you have to realize it still exists. Any time someone is given preference for whatever reason, there is the potential for it to be exploited. Will my university outright say they are only hiring people because they have so many people of one race? Of course not. I just believe that only the best qualified should get the positions, regardless of race, status, or anything. We hire people because we want someone who is good at their job. If you are unfit for the job, for whatever reason, I'm sorry, but we're trying to do the best work we can do, and for that we need the best employees. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] Lastly, don't get me wrong, I do understand why people like affermative action, and I like that whoever said "the more disadvantaged people that get an education, the less disadvantaged people there will be", because that is true, however I do not think that AA is the way to achieve that. One thing that my university does do is offer a scholarship solely to applicants living in the city of Detroit. This is a way to help out many of the disadvantaged while not taking away from those who are truly deserving. If anything, it takes scholarship money away from traditional, merit-based scholarships, thereby making those scholarships more exclusive and only available to those most deserving.

[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;44623925]Unfortunately, it actually does happen. I live and work in Detroit. Not suburban Detroit, but the city itself. When we had to go through our hiring process, we were told there were quotas of [B]race[/B] that we had to abide by. We have to hire a set amount of white and non-white people. Notice I didn't say a set amount of low-socioeconomic status people, we literally had to offset the number ratio of white people by hiring non-white people. You might think I'm lying just to further my position, but you'll have to believe me when I say I'm not. Is it right? No. Is it even legal? Probably not. And while this isn't because of an AA law per say, it does have the same sort of concept as AA, which is why I am opposed to it. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] To give insight as to what I do, I am a residential advisor in one of the housing buildings at one of the universities in the city. I have a lot of experience so I get to help in the hiring of new RAs for the next year. It's an unwritten rule that there can only be one white RA every other floor, and no more than half of the RAs can be white. So while most of the RAs are white, we have to choose blacks and asians and indians simply because they are not white, and while they aren't under qualified, I have had to choose them instead of a more qualified white person simply because we have too many white people. And before anyone blows up on me about quotas being illegal and this isn't affirmative action, bla bla bla, I know. I realize America doesn't use the quota system anymore and I realize that the whole thing going on where I work is not legal, but you have to realize it still exists. Any time someone is given preference for whatever reason, there is the potential for it to be exploited. Will my university outright say they are only hiring people because they have so many people of one race? Of course not. I just believe that only the best qualified should get the positions, regardless of race, status, or anything. We hire people because we want someone who is good at their job. If you are unfit for the job, for whatever reason, I'm sorry, but we're trying to do the best work we can do, and for that we need the best employees.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately in your case it's a problem, but affirmative action isn't perfect. It's giving opportunities to those who otherwise wouldn't. Besides, you know why those white applicants are probably more qualified? [I]Because they're white[/I]. As reluctant as I am to use this word, being white does give a certain privilege. It gives you a higher chance of being born in a higher income household, better access to education etc. An overall higher level in society. I'm not saying being black or hispanic or asian means you can't ever be more qualified than someone who is white, but overall your chances are lower. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] But yeah the quota system is illegal in the U.S., so this isn't a perfect example.

[QUOTE=Glitchbunny;44624150]Unfortunately in your case it's a problem, but affirmative action isn't perfect. It's giving opportunities to those who otherwise wouldn't. Besides, you know why those white applicants are probably more qualified? [I]Because they're white[/I]. As reluctant as I am to use this word, being white does give a certain privilege. It gives you a higher chance of being born in a higher income household, better access to education etc. An overall higher level in society. I'm not saying being black or hispanic or asian means you can't ever be more qualified than someone who is white, but overall your chances are lower. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] But yeah the quota system is illegal in the U.S., so this isn't a perfect example.[/QUOTE] sure, but here's an idea instead of doing utterly redundant shit like quotas for specific positions, things that will improve the circumstances of maybe the tiniest fraction of 1% of the discriminated minorities, we take a good look at the root causes of WHY being a minority means you have worse access to education aka stop shoving people in jobs to fulfill arbitrary quotas and actually improve the lives of people on the streets in the areas that REALLY need the help - this will then improve the lives of EVERYONE. Instead of having minority only slots for universities, how about actually improving the education for the minorities so they DON'T need a slot. you can't magically grant the same white privilege with shitty no-thought feel good nothings like affirmative action; instead put some actual money and effort into bringing minorities up to the level of everyone else

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44627222]Statistically most crime is comitted by young male minorities, should we just lock them up becase of statistics? No, that's racist as shit, just as racist as [b]assuming a white male is going to be well off[/b].[/QUOTE] That's not an assumption made by affirmative action! You have a misunderstanding as to what it actually is!

[QUOTE=sgman91;44620280]This is the part that I don't understand. We already have laws against racist hiring practices/government policies/etc. If we have proof that people are being racist, then why aren't they being convicted under those laws?[/QUOTE] These laws cover when it's explicit racism I expect, y'know, an employer literally denying you a position due to race. The kinda of 'racism' that AA covers is institutional, it's not explicit, and isn't noticed as racism because of how it is seen societally. Employers subconsciously preferring to hire white dudes over black dudes is a problem, and we can't call it racism outright because they aren't exactly doing it on purpose. AA is not some ploy to make a black master race or whatever, it's a mechanism to ensure that minorities actually get represented in the workplace fairly. They aren't going to hire someone unqualified for the job to meet an AA quota unless the HR department is run by monkeys or something, they are however likely to hire someone who is qualified and fulfils the AA quota over someone with better qualifications (that would be totally irrelevant as the requirement is the metric) who won't fulfil the AA quota. [editline]24th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Riutet;44620531]I'm opposed to affirmative action, but I think shutting down affirmative action policies should be accompanied by initiatives to help eliminate inequality from the bottom up. Making sure everyone is receiving the same quality of education according to their needs, as well as ensuring that people have at the very least a minimum level of access to important resources such as libraries and the internet.[/QUOTE] See, that's all well and good, but it doesn't solve the institutional problems at all, it just means you've got a highly educated minority that are too qualified for entry level jobs now, and still not being hired as much as they need to be for equal representation. There have been studies into these hiring practices, it's not something you can easily just say "nope, their fault not the employers".

I honestly can't see how people are against affirmative action. I'm sure it's a similar situation in the US, but here in Australia the indigenous population had been subject to tough institutionalised racism up until a few decades ago. But just because institutionalised racism ended didn't mean that the disadvantages ended. Many indigenous peoples are still born into a life of poverty and crime, and it's especially notable in the Northern Territory where a hugely disproportionate number of indigenous people are sent to jail. Is it the result of institutional racism? No, at least not from conscious racism. It's the fact that many people are still born into that life. It's a very serious issue. What people who are against affirmative action are saying is that those indigenous peoples should be left to their ghettos so that their children can be born into the same life of poverty and crime, with no special assistance or opportunities available because 'affirmative action is racism11!!!'.

Affirmative action on a race basis is racist. It's not going to solve anything. Affirmative action on an income basis however would serve to actually help allieviate the issue.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;44627613]These laws cover when it's explicit racism I expect, y'know, an employer literally denying you a position due to race. The kinda of 'racism' that AA covers is institutional, it's not explicit, and isn't noticed as racism because of how it is seen societally. Employers subconsciously preferring to hire white dudes over black dudes is a problem, and we can't call it racism outright because they aren't exactly doing it on purpose.[/QUOTE] That IS racism. If you have proof of someone doing that then you can easily win a legal battle against them. If a person is obviously better qualified, and the employer has no specific complaint, but they aren't hired then that's exactly what the law is there for.

[QUOTE=bdd458;44627986]Affirmative action on a race basis is racist. It's not going to solve anything. Affirmative action on an income basis however would serve to actually help allieviate the issue.[/QUOTE] Poor people already have greater access to grants and financial assistance, but that doesn't help the black guy that gets turned away for jobs because his resume has an "ethnic" name on it.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;44627065]sure, but here's an idea instead of doing utterly redundant shit like quotas for specific positions, things that will improve the circumstances of maybe the tiniest fraction of 1% of the discriminated minorities, we take a good look at the root causes of WHY being a minority means you have worse access to education aka stop shoving people in jobs to fulfill arbitrary quotas and actually improve the lives of people on the streets in the areas that REALLY need the help - this will then improve the lives of EVERYONE. Instead of having minority only slots for universities, how about actually improving the education for the minorities so they DON'T need a slot. you can't magically grant the same white privilege with shitty no-thought feel good nothings like affirmative action; instead put some actual money and effort into bringing minorities up to the level of everyone else[/QUOTE] OK the solutions you're giving here are good for some affirmative action, such as the lowered test requirements to get into certain schools. But it doesn't help at face to face level discrimination. A white person and a minority with exact same qualifications? The white person, statistically, is more likely to be hired. Throwing money wouldn't fix this problem, it's a problematic attitude that will be around until future generations. Affirmative action is basically just there so until then, minorities have a stronger representation in the work force [editline]24th April 2014[/editline] Hexpunk said it better; [QUOTE=hexpunK;44627613]See, that's all well and good, but it doesn't solve the institutional problems at all, it just means you've got a highly educated minority that are too qualified for entry level jobs now, and still not being hired as much as they need to be for equal representation.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Glitchbunny;44628595]OK the solutions you're giving here are good for some affirmative action, such as the lowered test requirements to get into certain schools. But it doesn't help at face to face level discrimination. A white person and a minority with exact same qualifications? The white person, statistically, is more likely to be hired. Throwing money wouldn't fix this problem, it's a problematic attitude that will be around until future generations. Affirmative action is basically just there so until then, minorities have a stronger representation in the work force [editline]24th April 2014[/editline] Hexpunk said it better;[/QUOTE] but that's total bs affirmative action is never done on any greater level than a few positions in a few select jobs it does fucking nothing to stop face to face level discrimination because it doesn't mean jack shit if a black guy can get a job, as the institution deemed to lower the bar for him, when the institution itself has a problem with him. to put it clearly, affirmative action does jack shit to stop racism. Sure it helps with some of the symptoms of racism with a tiny fraction of people, but otherwise it isn't changing shit deal with the racist opinions of people in positions of power, and provide better education and social security for minorities trapped in low-income areas.