Change.org Petition Wants ANTIFA Declared a ‘Terrorist Organization’

[Geel]

[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51796377]True, no argument there. But by that logic, if fascists say at a rally "we are going to get elected and then carry out our violent agenda" are they then fair game?[/QUOTE]

It depends. Are they actually in a position to make that threat? Are they a politician, or just someone unrelated who really likes that politician?

Either way, that definitely sounds like a credible threat that you could charge that person with. I would still not support random people assaulting that person or the people who were present.

[Tamschi]

[QUOTE=geel9;51796359]Perhaps. There's a limit to the violence the police can open with. In addition, you have a clear, credible, [b]actual threat[/b] being made. You have someone saying that they will, at a specific time, at a specific place, commit a violent crime.

That's different from "They sound a whole lot like fascists so they're [b]definitely[/b] planning on murdering a whole lot of people"[/QUOTE]

That last part depends a bit on where you draw the line for what's hate speech and/or incitement.
Personally I think the definitions we use over here (which do include defamation against certain protected characteristics) are appropriate (in practical terms of a world where people are really quite fallible in judging others).

[Geel]

[QUOTE=Tamschi;51796405]That last part depends a bit on where you draw the line for what's hate speech and/or incitement.
Personally I think the definitions we use over here (which do include defamation against certain protected characteristics) are appropriate in practical terms of a world where people are really quite fallible in judging others.[/QUOTE]

The issue is that people are extending the limit on who is "acceptable" to randomly assault. It's not just someone who's screaming "GAS THE JEWS". They're extending it far beyond what is reasonable. They're applying the label of "nazi" or "fascist" onto anyone they think [i]sounds like[/i] an actual nazi or fascist, and then saying "because they're fascist, it's okay to assault them, because they're violent" even though that particular person is not in any way inherently a threat.

[Senn]

[QUOTE=KillRay;51796371]you didnt prove any of those were antifa though. most of those come from the anarchist sub and anarchist news too. not anti fa. i can link a picture of a dude smashing a random window too and say its you

you just cant keep focus long enough to prove me wrong smh fam

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

people donating to support a nonviolent antifa orginization is a stat of members[/QUOTE]

[url]https://twitter.com/LauraAnthony7/status/826982230421483520[/url] - Report confirmed that Antifa caused the fire

[url]http://abc7news.com/news/video-trump-supporter-pepper-sprayed-at-milo-protest/1733004/[/url] - another angle on a video confirms it's an antifa member wearing all black and leather

[url]https://twitter.com/AlexR_DC/status/799786749736218624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw[/url] - Antifa too, if you have missed the article this protest turned out violent

[url]https://twitter.com/Americooligan/status/827189826713710592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw[/url] - multiple reports and articles stating that antifa members trashed the place up

[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/01/23/20170124_limo.jpg[/url] - Caused by the DisruptJ20 and Antifa movement, confirmed articles

[url]http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Berkeley-College-Republicans-Report-Harassment-Following-Milo-Protest-412965603.html[/url] - Once again, confirmed. Go to the nycantifa wordpress blog for the doxing

[url]http://i.imgur.com/HqBupVa.png[/url] - Hold by Antifa members during Berkeley, you can see them holding an Antifa flag

[url]https://twitter.com/constantnatalie/status/801158044004421633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw[/url] - Known antifa member, notice the #makeracistsafraidagain hashtag. Sounds peaceful don't you think?

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5smpbv/just_antifa_things/[/url] - they're talking about Antifa and pretty much supporting them in the comments, the comments were deleted but they were talking about how to get ahold of "legal weapons".

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/4kdfv7/why_are_most_of_the_reddit_anarchists_just/d3e952r/[/url] - Just to make sure you understand how relatively close they are, most of the violent acts caused by antifa members are pure anarchism.

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5peprq/why_not_get_violent/[/url] / [url]http://heatst.com/tech/reddits-anarchists-propose-mass-violence-riots-and-terrorism-against-the-government/[/url] - The same thing as above

nycantifa wordpress blog - dedicated for doxing people

[url]https://68.media.tumblr.com/26b84eea82c7a6bbb5e724cfed6656dc/tumblr_oghhiqrMQ11s9ccq2o1_1280.jpg[/url] - From an disruptj20 movement, reposted and blogged by various antifa members

[url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C355_7rWIAEP-eM.jpg[/url] - not really confirmed as far as I know, but pretty self-explanatory

[url]https://twitter.com/JPY_Kurdish/status/827063021335871489[/url] - The twitter user here doesn't matter, the video doesn't belong to him and it pretty much shows someone who claims being beaten up by them during the milo speech.

[url]http://www.ibtimes.com/what-antifa-anti-fascist-group-behind-violent-berkeley-protest-against-milo-2485217[/url] - Might I add that this article mentions "according to reports, the protests were peaceful until a group of several dozen black-face-mask-clad activists showed up.". Or pretty much the antifa members if you happen to look at the ones holding an antifa flag.

[Freaka]

never saw this, thanks signed it.

[Senn]

[QUOTE]people donating to support a nonviolent antifa organization is a statistic of people who support nonviolence in the movement[/QUOTE]

Except they're donating to an organization that happens to donate money to people who assaulted others or got fined by the court, and as a result needed help from the so called "nonviolent" organization.

Now why would a nonviolent organization would donate to help someone pay their legal fees after attacking a group of people? that's pretty hypocritical and shitty in my opinion.

[fog]

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51796443]same deflection again using small numbers of people trying to say they represent everyone[/QUOTE]

instead of linking me all this again; link me sources that "confirm" your confirmations.

also, as i said 5 pages ago. this doesn't mean its a majority of the members. you keep forgetting where i stand when i say

minority extremists dont represent entire movements. especially when theyre just anarchists

now i loop it back to what i showed earlier

more people in the movement support a nonviolent org than all the people you linked here

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51796454]Except they're donating to an organization that happens to donate money to people who assaulted others or got fined by the court, and as a result needed help from the so called "nonviolent" organization.

Now why would a nonviolent organization would donate to help someone pay their legal fees after attacking a group of people? that's pretty hypocritical and shitty in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

selective reading. they also pay for buildings damaged by rioters

not to mention THEY could have been assaulted. think about that?

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

[IMG]http://puu.sh/tUogs/48517c8357.png[/IMG]

[Tamschi]

[QUOTE=geel9;51796417]The issue is that people are extending the limit on who is "acceptable" to randomly assault. It's not just someone who's screaming "GAS THE JEWS". They're extending it far beyond what is reasonable. They're applying the label of "nazi" or "fascist" onto anyone they think [i]sounds like[/i] an actual nazi or fascist, and then saying "because they're fascist, it's okay to assault them, because they're violent" even though that particular person is not in any way inherently a threat.[/QUOTE]

That's one of the main issues here, yes. The 'fascism' label is thrown around way too easily.
There are most likely [I]some[/I] fascists mixed into the groups that are currently attacked by violent antifa, but a lot of them don't really give that impression.

(Personal opinion:
bannon and to a lesser extent trump at the very least don't seem that far from that ideology.
Yiannopoulos has extremely disagreeable views, but at least currently he strikes me more as hardcore libertarian right-winger who uses authoritarian right-wingers to attack authoritarian left-wingers. It seems to be working, but with trump and other authoritarian right-wingers in power the side-effects are extremely dangerous.)

[Tamschi]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51796494]What is this Antifa group I have been hearing about? Do they have a website?[/QUOTE]

This isn't necessarily relevant to the discussion here since the country is different (and this may be a rhetoric question but I honestly can't tell), but regarding Germany I recommend [URL="http://www.bpb.de/politik/extremismus/linksextremismus/33612/antifaschismus?p=all"]having a look at the BPB site[/URL]. (For those who don't speak German: The article stresses that Antifa doesn't always imply extremism and in fact may be completely benign depending on the specifics.)

[Senn]

[QUOTE=KillRay;51796459]
selective reading. they also pay for buildings damaged by rioters

not to mention THEY could have been assaulted. think about that?

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

[IMG]http://puu.sh/tUogs/48517c8357.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

So the fact that this "nonviolent org" is using it's money to pay other people's legal fees for assault is completely irrelevant now because other people could have been injured instead, and that the organization also helps them too? maybe try and actually use your head to think of why the person they had give money to is in jail, for assault, against a group of people. And not for once ignore everything I said to appeal to pity

[IMG]https://intlantifadefence.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/url.jpg?w=788[/IMG]

Also who do you think damaged those buildings? who set fires cause of Milo, trashed most of what they saw in front of them, completely destroyed a starbucks, assaulted people before. Antifa is being violent and destroying property. And using an excuse to set up a fundraiser to "pay the damages they've done" themselves is incredibly fucking idiotic.

[Omilinon 👻]

If Antifa is labelled as a domestic terrorist organization, why isn't the Ku Klux Klan designated one as well?

[Spazi]

Okay so can we go back to basics a bit?

As I gather, nazis/fascists are bad for the reason that they threaten democratic society. If they get into power, they would gladly revoke essential democratic rights from their political enemies, rights such as free speech, freedom of movement, inviolability of person and home.

So, would the solution to that problem be to revoke their free speech and even inviolability of person (to use violence against them), simply for their political standing alone?

See what's wrong with that?

[Knurr]

How come such hateful and bad organisation can't fetch as many signs as some stupid, unreal ban for official president of the US from entering the entire country? Crazy

[papaya]

[QUOTE=Talishmar;51796699]Okay so can we go back to basics a bit?

As I gather, nazis/fascists are bad for the reason that they threaten democratic society. If they get into power, they would gladly revoke essential democratic rights from their political enemies, rights such as free speech, freedom of movement, inviolability of person and home.

So, would the solution to that problem be to revoke their free speech and even inviolability of person (to use violence against them), simply for their political standing alone?

See what's wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

wow! you mean if we reduce something down to the simplest concepts possible, it loses all nuance and context that may alter things?

[Hollywood SN]

[QUOTE=papaya;51796795]wow! you mean if we reduce something down to the simplest concepts possible, it loses all nuance and context that may alter things?[/QUOTE]

The graceful nuance of breaking windows and destroying vehicles of people unrelated to your target.

[Tamschi]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51796618]Dozens of groups across USA adopted this German abbreviation as their name, stole the flag, and doing what they please. Some of them went and commited some crimes, and people are recting like Antifa as a singular entity exists, and is the most pressing issue in America.

It is simply ridicilous.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, the USA seems to have mostly worked in very large, (officially) monolithic and very partisan political blocks for quite a while now.
Also considering the state of education there, I think it's understandable that a lot of people have trouble with more differentiated concepts at this point.

[shaotek]

[QUOTE=Omilinon;51796697]If Antifa is labelled as a domestic terrorist organization, why isn't the Ku Klux Klan designated one as well?[/QUOTE]

The klan is designated as a domestic terror group. The fbi essentially destroyed them in the 90s.

[Breadman]

[QUOTE=papaya;51796795]wow! you mean if we reduce something down to the simplest concepts possible, it loses all nuance and context that may alter things?[/QUOTE]

You just dont quit with this do you?

[Boaraes]

[QUOTE=kilerabv;51797165]You just dont quit with this do you?[/QUOTE]

You're dealing with someone who thinks iDubbbz is a racist homophobe. Let that sink in for a bit, and then all becomes clear.

[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Off topic" - Pascall))[/highlight]

[Hollywood SN]

[QUOTE=Boaraes;51797297]You're dealing with someone who thinks iDubbbz is a racist homophobe. Let that sink in for a bit, and then all becomes clear.[/QUOTE]

Wait really?

[FunnyGamer]

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51797524]Wait really?[/QUOTE]

I've been sitting on this one for a while, laughing to myself.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/RtjAxOr.jpg[/t]

[B]yes.[/B]

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

"Don't follow me if you're a jontron fan" lmao

[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Off topic" - Pascall))[/highlight]

[Hollywood SN]

[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;51797776]I've been sitting on this one for a while, laughing to myself.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/RtjAxOr.jpg[/t]

[B]yes.[/B]

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

"Don't follow me if you're a jontron fan" lmao[/QUOTE]

God what a poser.

[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Off topic" - Pascall))[/highlight]

[Bastet]

[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;51797776]I've been sitting on this one for a while, laughing to myself.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/RtjAxOr.jpg[/t]

[B]yes.[/B]

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

"Don't follow me if you're a jontron fan" lmao[/QUOTE]

holy shit what a mong

[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Off topic" - Pascall))[/highlight]

[Hollywood SN]

-i suppose thats offtopic-

[Spazi]

Let's not go off topic here

[QUOTE=papaya;51796795]wow! you mean if we reduce something down to the simplest concepts possible, it loses all nuance and context that may alter things?[/QUOTE]

Nuances and context don't change the the fact that revoking democratic rights from our political opponents in order to protect democracy is self-defeating, and that it sets an awful premise for the same move to be used against you, me, anyone.

[Bertie]

[QUOTE=Omilinon;51796697]If Antifa is labelled as a domestic terrorist organization, why isn't the Ku Klux Klan designated one as well?[/QUOTE]

When was the last time the Ku Klux Klan caused widespread property damage in riots?
Not that I think ANTIFA should be classed a terrorist organization, much as I think the movement itself is laughable and bratty.

[mechanical433]

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51797835]Fuck, i checked his tumblr now that it was brought up.

He has a page thats just... Like, theres no other way to put it, [URL="http://papatulus.tumblr.com/money"]begging for money[/URL], for seemingly no other reason or incentive other than to give him money.

Hey, wait a minute... Wasnt he going on some tirade against Capitalism earlier?

:s:[/QUOTE]

you guys are weird

plus living in a capitalist society makes you dependent on money whether you like it or not

so bravo for that 12 y/o -like argument

oohh look at him he goes to the supermarket to buy FOOD! wasn't he AGAINST CAPITALISM ???

[Mud]

[QUOTE=Boaraes;51797297]You're dealing with someone who thinks iDubbbz is a racist homophobe. Let that sink in for a bit, and then all becomes clear.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;51797776]I've been sitting on this one for a while, laughing to myself.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/RtjAxOr.jpg[/t]

[B]yes.[/B]

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

"Don't follow me if you're a jontron fan" lmao[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51797835]Fuck, i checked his tumblr now that it was brought up.

He has a page thats just... Like, theres no other way to put it, [url=http://papatulus.tumblr.com/money]begging for money[/url], for seemingly no other reason or incentive other than to give him money.

Hey, wait a minute... Wasnt he going on some tirade against Capitalism earlier?

:s:[/QUOTE]

lets not turn this into a personal attack against the person now, please. it makes this pointless debate even more shitty.

[QUOTE=papaya;51796795]wow! you mean if we reduce something down to the simplest concepts possible, it loses all nuance and context that may alter things?[/QUOTE]

The reason why violence and aggressive opposition is a very bad way to go about these things is because we just create an atmosphere of attrition, making the opposition try and hit harder back, ideologically or physically. Educating people who have already not been taken on why these ideologies are flawed and shitty is a much more effective way to go about this, your aggression will only give them a reason to hit harder back and manipulate people into thinking that you are the bad guy. Debating them or not is irrelevant when you can educate people on the irrationality and flaws of such ideologies. Plus there is an irony to silencing other's opinions.

That was the point everyone's been trying to drive home.

[papaya]

[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;51797776]I've been sitting on this one for a while, laughing to myself.

[t]http://i.imgur.com/RtjAxOr.jpg[/t]

[B]yes.[/B]

[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]

"Don't follow me if you're a jontron fan" lmao[/QUOTE]

i dont have "Don't follow me if you're a jontron fan" anywhere on my page and idubbbz frequently uses the n word and faggot in his videos but go off i guess

[.Ducky]

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51797835]Fuck, i checked his tumblr now that it was brought up.

He has a page thats just... Like, theres no other way to put it, [url=http://papatulus.tumblr.com/money]begging for money[/url], for seemingly no other reason or incentive other than to give him money.

Hey, wait a minute... Wasnt he going on some tirade against Capitalism earlier?

:s:[/QUOTE]

You must not be trying hard enough if you "cant put it any other way" than "begging for money" because I don't see much groveling or begging anywhere on that page. As if it was relevant and had anything to do with his feelings on capitalism.