Change.org Petition Wants ANTIFA Declared a ‘Terrorist Organization’ - Polidicks

[QUOTE=kilerabv;51794561]Then why martyr them and give them ground to stand on?[/QUOTE] So either you let them roam free to spread hatred, fear & misinformation with no consequence, or you hit them where it hurts and they turn into a martyr. Seems to me a lose-lose situation.

Valve was right in including Antifa/Black Bloc (same shit) as the terrorist faction of CS_Office.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794558]Would it not make more sense then to charge individuals who use violence to achieve a political goal as domestic terrorists?[/QUOTE] Well yes, that is the point. You don't charge them just for their association, you charge them for actions they take in support of the organization. It's to make the process more solid. Establish criteria and characteristics so that they can be checked when prosecuting an individual.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794575]So either you let them roam free to spread hatred, fear & misinformation with no consequence[/QUOTE] or wait get this exercise your free speech and write books, websites, pamphlets, hold your own speeches and marches, and counteract their points. wow what a novel idea

[QUOTE=bdd458;51794586]or wait get this exercise your free speech and write books, websites, pamphlets, hold your own speeches and marches, and counteract their points. wow what a novel idea[/QUOTE] Have you ever tried arguing logically the injustices in racial and sexual discrimination with an alt-righter? I'll give you a hint: They're not, generally, very receptive to calm rationale.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794575]So either you let them roam free to spread hatred, fear & misinformation with no consequence, or you hit them where it hurts and they turn into a martyr. Seems to me a lose-lose situation.[/QUOTE] Or you counter them through better information. You have rebuttals ready to go at a moment's notice, you follow in their wake and override their messages and goals. And if some people aren't persuaded, violence will be even less effective, it will instead simply radicalize them.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51794468]But i would never attack them unless they target me first.[/QUOTE] Depending on your ethnicity, nationality, religion, genealogy, identity, sexual orientation, physical health, and myriad other factors, there's a decent chance you've already made the list of Nazi targets.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51794577]Valve was right in including Antifa/Black Bloc (same shit) as the terrorist faction of CS_Office.[/QUOTE] Black Bloc is a tactic. Always aims for destruction Antifa is a movement. Not always aims for violence [QUOTE]There were debates within the anti-fascist movement over tactics. While many east end ex-servicemen participated in violence against fascists,[20] Communist Party leader Phil Piratin denounced these tactics and instead called for large demonstrations.[21] In addition to the militant anti-fascist movement, there was a smaller current of liberal anti-fascism in Britain; Sir Ernest Barker, for example, was a notable English liberal anti-fascist in the 1930s.[22] [/QUOTE] They are not the same shit and a Google search will tell you that Sick video game reference though

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794575]So either you let them roam free to spread hatred, fear & misinformation with no consequence, or you hit them where it hurts and they turn into a martyr. Seems to me a lose-lose situation.[/QUOTE] There is always a peacfull option to the fashist/nazi nutter screaming their lungs out about whatever they are one about. And as things work, unless they resort to violence first, hitting them and setting their shit on fire will only legitemize them in their eyes, the eyes of the people who follow the same hatefull rhetoric and people who dont know anything about the situation.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794597]Have you ever tried arguing logically the injustices in racial and sexual discrimination with an alt-righter? I'll give you a hint: They're not, generally, very receptive to calm rationale.[/QUOTE] There is more to it than just the logical argument aspect. Remember that they are still people, some people fall in to the trap and forget that and instead see only machines or animals. You have to talk the illogical aspects we all have, the emotional parts. If you're hostile and disparaging while making your argument, your argument isn't likely to succeed.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794597]Have you ever tried arguing logically the injustices in racial and sexual discrimination with an alt-righter? I'll give you a hint: They're not, generally, very receptive to calm rationale.[/QUOTE] That does not justify violence you know.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794597]Have you ever tried arguing logically the injustices in racial and sexual discrimination with an alt-righter? I'll give you a hint: They're not, generally, very receptive to calm rationale.[/QUOTE] Is the response really to trash the nearest Starbucks, though?

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794597]Have you ever tried arguing logically the injustices of racial and sexual discrimination with an alt-righter? I'll give you a hint: They're not, generally, very receptive to calm rationale.[/QUOTE] I have actually had plenty of reasonable conversations with people who don't align with my views, and generally they're to the right. It's not hard, you just have to understand that not everyone is always going to agree with you or see things from your point of view - ESPECIALLY right away. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/the-white-flight-of-derek-black/2016/10/15/ed5f906a-8f3b-11e6-a6a3-d50061aa9fae_story.html[/url] Son of the founder of Stormfront, a onetime White Nationalist and Supremacist, had his views changed by SURPRISE actual discussion and treating him like a fucking human being. [url]http://www.businessinsider.com/daryl-davis-making-friends-with-kkk-documentary-2016-12[/url] [url]http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-ca-film-accidental-courtesy-20161205-story.html[/url] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kkk-klu-klux-klan-members-leave-black-man-racism-friends-convince-persuade-chicago-daryl-davis-a7489596.html[/url] [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-man-daryl-davis-befriends-kkk-documentary-accidental-courtesy_us_585c250de4b0de3a08f495fc[/url] Daryl Davis, a black man, convinces members of the KKK to change their views throughout the 80s and 90s by SURPRISE talking with them and treating them as people. From the comments on the Huffington Post article [quote]As a Mexican living in the South, I've always had the same experience as him. You win over one person at a time.[/quote] (rest of the comment was pretty rambely, this is the important bit though - that talking with racists/fascists/whatever is what fucking works) You live in a Democracy, the people, YOU hold the power. Fucking use it.

When you lay incendiary devices/bombs on high-speed train tracks that could kill hundreds you definitely are a terror organization.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794635]Is the response really to trash the nearest Starbucks, though?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794449]Then there's good violence and bad violence. Punching some nazi douchefuck in the face is A-OK with me. [B]Lighting shit on fire? Probably not the best idea.[/B][/QUOTE] [editline]lol[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;51794638]You live in a Democracy, the people, YOU hold the power. Fucking use it.[/QUOTE] Hey, if we're going to get anecdotal then I've literally lost count on the amount of times both me and my friends have tried to persuade people and family (by being kind and understanding) that their views are hurtful, ignorant and problematic. Sometimes talking isn't going to cut it. And after a while, talking feels utterly pointless. Some people are a lost cause.

I give nazis the right to say their hate because people see it and are disgusted. When you hit them, they become the minority. Congrats, you're making it so fascists get a bigger and better platform. That's why we have one on the security council.

[QUOTE=KillRay;51794608]Black Bloc is a tactic. Always aims for destruction Antifa is a movement. Not always aims for violence They are not the same shit and a Google search will tell you that Sick video game reference though[/QUOTE] Not as sick as your edgy "le punch nazis" meme. Please, keep justifying your socially righteous jihad. Nobody cares.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794657][/QUOTE] Sorry I missed that. What makes someone a Nazi douchefuck?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794673]Sorry I missed that. What makes someone a Nazi douchefuck?[/QUOTE] Disagreeing with me

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51794668]Not as sick as your edgy "le punch nazis" meme. Please, keep justifying your socially righteous jihad. Nobody cares.[/QUOTE] LMAO that first post was just a cheeky comment. I wasnt serious. Sorry to upset you friend

The poor moderate Nazis, just ban antifa, they burned the reichst- erh, smashed up starbucks so much for "tolerant left"!!

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794673]Sorry I missed that. What makes someone a Nazi douchefuck?[/QUOTE] By adhering to national-socialistic values, which includes holding & preaching the view or implication that some genders, races, and sexualities are less valuable than the majority in any way, shape or form. IE Richard Spencer and anybody like him.

[QUOTE=KillRay;51794675]LMAO that first post was just a cheeky comment. I wasnt serious. Sorry to upset you friend[/QUOTE] Says the antifapologist that had to google a tactic just to prove me wrong on a fucking videogame reference lmao. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=bdd458;51794638]I have actually had plenty of reasonable conversations with people who don't align with my views, and generally they're to the right. It's not hard, you just have to understand that not everyone is always going to agree with you or see things from your point of view - ESPECIALLY right away.[/QUOTE] And how often are these people convinced to see agree with you and denounce the things they used to support? [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794688]By adhering to national-socialistic values, which includes holding & preaching the view or implication that some genders, races, and sexualities are less valuable than the majority in any way, shape or form. IE Richard Spencer and anybody like him.[/QUOTE] Is punching the only weapon in your arsenal? What happens when there are 200 Nazis and five of you?

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794708]Is punching the only weapon in your arsenal? What happens when there are 200 Nazis and five of you?[/QUOTE] ... nothing? I get punched, maybe? What's your argument?

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51794702]Says the antifapologist that had to google a tactic just to prove me wrong on a fucking videogame reference lmao.[/QUOTE] The Google search into looking at the first result was just to show you how quickly you could find the correct info, since you said something incorrect. I already knew the difference I would appreciate you not flaming....

You shouldn't obsess over converting the facists or Nazis or alt-right or what have you. In fact, that is the wrong approach pretty much universally. You convert the audience. The people trying to make a decision. You provide no argument or reason to be supported if you simply punch someone in the face and insult them. Why did you do it? What reasons did you do it for? What is the basis for those reasons? None of that is conveyed to the audience in such an incident. Instead, you challenge them intellectually, give the [I]audience[/I] reasons why they should support you instead. This is what has made Milo so successful, he understands this and uses it. He speaks, and provides his reasons, however valid or invalid they may be. Then he waits until someone comes after him, and by and large the response is simply insults and hostility devoid of substantive reasoning. He knows this is the most likely outcome and that the audience will likely back him because he was the only one to provide an actual argument. His opponents don't give actual arguments for why he shouldn't be supported. Just relying on a quote does not make an argument, but it can help summarize an idea, and in that I'm going to refer to the common saying "War does not determine who is right but who is left." Violence does not actually justify or validate your views, it makes no arguments and reasons. People don't support you because of your ideals, they support you simply for being the perceived stronger force. And if you kill off all of your opponents, you've only prove. That you can right better, not that your ideals are better. If you convert the audience you are beating your opponents in actual support and by starving them of supporters. They dwindle in numbers and support.

Merge

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794708]And how often are these people convinced to see agree with you and denounce the things they used to support?[/QUOTE] IDK man I'm not their parents, It's not my job to convert people's beliefs, I'm just open to discourse with people and if they feel they should change their minds that's up to them. I don't keep detailed lists of their beliefs and when/if they changed. I don't go into a political discussion with the mindset "BOY I CAN'T WAIT TO CHANGE THEIR WRONGTHINK AND CONVERT THEM TO MY SUPERIOR POINT OF VIEW". I'm just looking for discussion with people. Daryl Davis for instance only wanted to find out what made racist people racist, what made them tick. And in the process he ended up changing the minds of many, up to 200 if his claims are to be believed (and at the least, 12, since that's how many robes he was given by former KKK members). He didn't go in looking to change minds, it just sorta happened over the years. It was slow going. It's not anyone's job or responsibility to change someone's mind, [I]but you do have the power to [/I]by talking with people like actual human beings instead of using violence.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51794727]... nothing? I get punched, maybe? What's your argument?[/QUOTE] How are you going to stop the Nazi's if and when punching no longer works? What levels of violence are you willing to endorse to stop the threat of Nazism as you see it? [QUOTE=bdd458;51794749]IDK man I'm not their parents, It's not my job to convert people's beliefs, I'm just open to discourse with people and if they feel they should change their minds that's up to them. I don't keep detailed lists of their beliefs and when/if they changed. I don't go into a political discussion with the mindset "BOY I CAN'T WAIT TO CHANGE THEIR WRONGTHINK AND CONVERT THEM TO MY SUPERIOR POINT OF VIEW". I'm just looking for discussion with people. Daryl Davis for instance only wanted to find out what made racist people racist, what made them tick. And in the process he ended up changing the minds of many, up to 200 if his claims are to be believed (and at the least, 12, since that's how many robes he was given by former KKK members). He didn't go in looking to change minds, it just sorta happened over the years. It was slow going. It's not anyone's job or responsibility to change someone's mind, but you do have the power to by talking with people like actual human beings instead of using violence.[/QUOTE] But the entire point of your post is to point out how a few people had their minds changed and that the power of words, not violence, was responsible for this. If you can't even stick up for that, why do you expect people to take your copy-pasted spiel to heart every time it's posted in one of these threads?