Change.org Petition Wants ANTIFA Declared a ‘Terrorist Organization’ - Polidicks

[QUOTE=KillRay;51795010]Nazism is a system of beliefs that almost always involves ethic cleansing... I'm pretty sure it is in general, bad Its a system of beliefs that while you can advocate for "nonviolent cleansing" like Spencer, it's still a core foundation. White master race and all that[/QUOTE] There you go. Now "I" have got a reason Nazis are bad. Now "I" have a reason to not support them. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Duck M.;51795013]Richard Spencer graduated with honors from the University of Virginia, received a Masters in humanities, and was a doctorate student at Duke. Clearly just a lack of higher education education, a rebellious teenage phase, and general ignorance cannot explain everything.[/QUOTE] You can be educated but uninformed or misguided. Especially if a view has been given enough time to sit and solidify because no one tried to change it.

[QUOTE=Solomon;51795039]You keep saying all this stuff Zedacon, but gimme an opportunity and I'll punch a nazi over attempting to convert an audience any day of the week. :downs:[/QUOTE] And that's how you justify their "libtards are out to get us" mentality and lose the support of all anti-violence people

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51795040]There you go. Now "I" have got a reason Nazis are bad. Now "I" have a reason to not support them. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] You can be educated but uninformed or misguided. Especially if a view has been given enough time to sit and solidify because no one tried to change it.[/QUOTE] Oh I see what you're saying. Still, I think that needing to explain the core foundation (s) of nazism to people who are at least middle school educated seems odd. It's well taught at least here near me. And then there's the issue of people who know and support that belief

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51794984]I don't think violence should be used to deny someone a platform. I don't think racism has a place in society. What do.[/QUOTE] Try and deny them a platform is some other way, like, say, a protest, or a letter sent by all the professors from the university telling them 'dont give this man a platform'. in UC Berkeley (where that poor, defenseless starbucks window was brutally murdered) they did both of those, and they didn't work. In the end, violence (against shop windows and trash cans) from the Black Bloc was what finally got Milo's speech cancelled. In an ideal world, that would never need to happen. Protests or the letter would have been enough. But this whole obsession with free speech is what meant it had to come to that. Understand this thoroughly: Nazis, fascists, they're against free speech by definition. They'll take you giving them a platform under that guise with a big thank you, then beat you to death with it. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] Some of the people defending nazis in this thread because they're so pro free speech I guarantee are the same kind of people who scoff at Black Lives Matter for their protests.

[QUOTE=papaya;51795074]Try and deny them a platform is some other way, like, say, a protest, or a letter sent by all the professors from the university telling them 'dont give this man a platform'. in UC Berkeley (where that poor, defenseless starbucks window was brutally murdered) they did both of those, and they didn't work. In the end, violence (against shop windows and trash cans) from the Black Bloc was what finally got Milo's speech cancelled.[/QUOTE] It got the speech to 200 students cancelled and instead put him on one of the most watched cable programs in the United States and the entire world learned about the violent protests via the internet. I'd say in this particular case it backfired, huge. [QUOTE=papaya;51795074]In an ideal world, that would never need to happen. Protests or the letter would have been enough. But this whole obsession with free speech is what meant it had to come to that. Understand this thoroughly: Nazis, fascists, they're against free speech by definition. They'll take you giving them a platform under that guise with a big thank you, then beat you to death with it.[/QUOTE] I don't necessarily disagree with this and in fact see Trump's attack on the press as a worrying prelude to this.

[QUOTE=papaya;51795074]Some of the people defending nazis in this thread because they're so pro free speech I guarantee are the same kind of people who scoff at Black Lives Matter for their protests.[/QUOTE] Nobody's defending nazis you deluded child. I could honestly go for ages about how incredibly incompetent you are at this, but I value my braincells more than I value your posts.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51794940]You're missing the point. The point is that words are what works, and that if you're so inclined to actually fight that sort of thing violence isn't going to do it, and words are. Words and treating someone like a human being are what changes minds. I personally don't go looking to change people's minds, and I don't keep track of everyone I've ever had a political discussion with in my life. I fail to see how that's against my point. I look for discussion, for different points of view. Some of these people are people I've seen once at school and then never again, some are friends. Some may have actually thought about what I said after talking. Doing what Davis did, it isn't easy. It sure as hell isn't for everyone. It's all about your mindset, if you going in looking to change someone's mind, tbh you're going to be confrontational and you're not going to get anywhere. But if you take it slow, and you treat them like a person, it can and will happen. I'm going to quote Daryl Davis on that ever so spooky[B][I][U] ~platform~[/U][/I][/B] so many seem to not want to give others, because quite frankly he says it far more eloquently than I ever can. How exactly don't I then? [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] Is it because I don't keep a list of people I talk with? That I don't have a list of nazis that I'm checking off one by one as I have discussions with them and having periodic checkups to make sure they're on my side now?[/QUOTE] Man if I hear about Daryl Davis in regards to this again... Davis converted KKK members, not Nazis or fascists. There is a difference. He appealed to them on a religious level and opposed their ignorance. Nazis and fascists, are, generally not always religious nor are they always ignorant. There's overlap, but in the end they are not the same group and don't always share the same ideology.

Coyoteze, look dude, i dont like Nazi's either, but what did punching Richard Spencer or violently forcing Milo to not go about his speech accomplish? What did it do other than make them look like the victim and spread their message and existence to more people than they ever could otherwise? I never heard of Richard Spencer until he got socked in the face.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51795096]Nobody's defending nazis you deluded child. I could honestly go for ages about how incredibly incompetent you are at this, but I value my braincells more than I value your posts.[/QUOTE] This doesn't help. It's not better. And just like Milo, he'll become more entrenched and self-assured. The reason papaya is wrong is simply that we're not defending Nazis, we're arguing for better ways to stop them. Ways that respect the human beings on both sides of the issue and undecided in the middle. It's not about defending or supporting Nazis, it's about acknowledging that you can't win anyone over through violence.

[QUOTE=papaya;51794919]you really fuckin linked a sargon of akkad video? this is like saying 'no, 9/11 was a conspiracy, here's proof:" and linking an alex jones video.[/QUOTE] Is Sargon of Akkad wrong? If so, please by all means, provide the evidence. I imagine the reason you didn't was because you didn't have anything to refute him on. You just don't like Sargon of Akkad so you like to equate him to Alex Jones for some reason.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51795096]Nobody's defending nazis you deluded child. I could honestly go for ages about how incredibly incompetent you are at this, but I value my braincells more than I value your posts.[/QUOTE] Hey you remember when Papaya completely ignored literally every single argument against him in the last thread that he couldnt immediately brush off with some lame line or a random link? Its probably going to happen again.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51795114]Man if I hear about Daryl Davis in regards to this again... Davis converted KKK members, not Nazis or fascists. There is a difference. He appealed to them on a religious level and opposed their ignorance. Nazis and fascists, are, generally not always religious nor are they always ignorant. There's overlap, but in the end they are not the same group and don't always share the same ideology.[/QUOTE] Of course they're not exactly the same but they're 100% comparable. [quote] It's not a big crowd -- maybe 30 have come to sit on metal-and-cinder-block benches and listen to the speeches. Some members are women. A couple of small children play near the literature table, where you can buy a T-shirt with cross hairs over the face of Martin Luther King Jr. with the words "Our Dream Came True," and belt buckles, pocket knives and shoulder patches with emblematic blood drops, crosses and knights on white horses with mottoes like "God, Race & Country." Most won't give names. But a freelance writer named Charles Goines, who says he isn't a member, hopes Roger Kelly's planned newsletter will publish his essay, "Do You Hate Me Willie?" Goines says it was rejected as "too strong" by the National Association for the Advancement of White People, the outfit founded by [B]ex-Klansman David Duke, whom Kelly deeply admires and seeks to emulate, and who is the Republican candidate for governor in an election today in Louisiana.[/B] Goines gestures at the crowd. "These are just average guys," he says, "the butcher and the baker. When you really get down to it, they're like everybody else. I think their one difference is, they put a whole lot of emphasis on genetics." And also on hate. The ceremony opens. A thin woman in cammies and a bush hat leads the Lord's Prayer but stumbles just before the bit about "deliver us from evil" and has to be prompted. The first speaker is "Barry Black from Pennsylvania," also in fatigues, whose topics range from "fags and porch monkeys" all the way up to "Bush -- the kike Bush, I call him, because he is a Jew." Next is "Jack Carroll from Maryland" who says he "got brain damage" when he fell between two railroad cars "because of them niggers." Then "Matt from Virginia" takes over on the matter of "that whorehouse in Washington we call the federal government. I am a bigot, I am a racist, and I don't care who knows it." By contrast, Grand Dragon Kelly seems almost refined -- if just as mad. "The Klan taught me life and how to deal with it," he says. "My comrades and my white warriors, I'm proud of each and every one of my Klansmen and Klanladies. We are free from the burden that held us back!" Then he gets down to it. "The black race," he continues, "is in-festering our race and dragging it down to their level." Alleged black criminals "ain't even human beings, they're monkeys." And keeping everyone in the dark is the "funneled-down Jewish news."[/quote] [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1991/11/16/the-fire-of-the-grand-dragon/e9ff5ad3-38eb-4a77-954f-31a2d8dc0b8f/[/url]

[QUOTE=papaya;51795074]Try and deny them a platform is some other way, like, say, a protest, or a letter sent by all the professors from the university telling them 'dont give this man a platform'. in UC Berkeley (where that poor, defenseless starbucks window was brutally murdered) they did both of those, and they didn't work. In the end, violence (against shop windows and trash cans) from the Black Bloc was what finally got Milo's speech cancelled. In an ideal world, that would never need to happen. Protests or the letter would have been enough. But this whole obsession with free speech is what meant it had to come to that. Understand this thoroughly: Nazis, fascists, they're against free speech by definition. They'll take you giving them a platform under that guise with a big thank you, then beat you to death with it. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] Some of the people defending nazis in this thread because they're so pro free speech I guarantee are the same kind of people who scoff at Black Lives Matter for their protests.[/QUOTE] And that same violence put Milo on national news portrayed as the victim. He wants the attention and showing up to protest gives him exactly what he wants while the people who were interested to hear him speak s till have access to him and his opinions via the internet. Your methods are shit and counter-productive.

If your end goal is to eradicate the existence of fascists, then neither fighting nor talking to them can be successful. The idea will always exist, and there will always be 1 or more people who agree with it as long as humanity is of sufficient size. But talking will help reduce that number far more than violence will. Instead you limit their ability to cause harm and provide education and assistance to them. At the end of WW2, we didn't exterminate every last member of the army, or the party, because we knew that would create a people that despised us and would plot revenge. They attempted denazification which didn't work that well(Though they did try major offenders and made sure they wouldn't end up in government positions), but restoring the economy and providing aid to the german people did. Turns out if your life isn't shitty, it's harder to convince them that their troubles are from a certain group. When you shun, ridicule, and harm these people, they have no one else to turn to [I]but[/I] other fascists. Even if the reasoning they have for their problems is incorrect, simply telling them they're stupid/wrong/unimportant/a nazi does not help. They still believe they have a problem(And they do even if it's not the one they think they do), and that you're definitely against fixing it. So people like Trump, Milo, or Spencer pop up because they say they'll address it. It's not your responsibility to convert or even talk to them, but the least you could do is not make it harder for those that want to by validating their beliefs that you don't care about them through violence and hatred.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51795127]Coyoteze, look dude, i dont like Nazi's either, but what did punching Richard Spencer or violently forcing Milo to not go about his speech accomplish? What did it do other than make them look like the victim and spread their message and existence to more people than they ever could otherwise? I never heard of Richard Spencer until he got socked in the face.[/QUOTE] As little as the punch accomplished, besides some good feels, I think that people over value the aftermath of what happened. No one will become follower of his ideals JUST because he got punched It's not like racism and Hate were underground ideals

[QUOTE=KillRay;51795154]As little as the punch accomplished, besides some good feels, I think that people over value the aftermath of what happened. No one will become follower of his ideals JUST because he got punched It's not like racism and Hate were underground ideals[/QUOTE] No i dont think people are going to become nazi's because he got punched but its certainly not going to sway anyone who's already leaning that way who might actually have a chance of being reasoned with. All it did was make him the victim in that scenario. Same with the Milo thing, i dont understand how destroying a Starbucks and macing people in the face (who ironically was commending the people protesting peacefully) is supposed to fight fascism. Like, dont get me wrong, if they're actually legitimately, immediately threatening or about to hurt people, by all means fuck them up, but still, there are other far more productive and effective ways of doing this.

Are antifa folks anti-2nd amendment or pro?

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51795173]No i dont think people are going to become nazi's because he got punched but its certainly not going to sway anyone who's already leaning that way who might actually have a chance of being reasoned with. All it did was make him the victim in that scenario. Same with the Milo thing, i dont understand how destroying a Starbucks and macing people in the face (who ironically was commending the people protesting peacefully) is supposed to fight fascism. Like, dont get me wrong, if they're actually legitimately, immediately threatening or about to hurt people, by all means fuck them up, but still, there are other far more productive and effective ways of doing this.[/QUOTE] Personal opinion is that Milo is a catalyst and the public outrage is bigger than just him, if you wanna talk about that. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] You added more I'll edit in a min

[QUOTE=dillspears;51795198]Are antifa folks anti-2nd amendment or pro?[/QUOTE] Truth be told, I can't say I know, it's not really central to their ideals and goals. Now as a body that likes to resort to violence, often under the notion of "self-defense" or because they are fighting a "war", my assumption would be that they are likely more on the pro side.

Its really interesting how alike fascists and antifa is. Both normalize the use of violence against political opponents, authoritarian, and very intolerant of views they don't like. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=dillspears;51795198]Are antifa folks anti-2nd amendment or pro?[/QUOTE] Since they are anarcho-communists. I'd imagine its a mixed bag. Since basically they're willing to use violence to achieve their aims and don't believe in government (2nd amendment being part of government doctrine).

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51795221]Truth be told, I can't say I know, it's not really central to their ideals and goals. Now as a body that likes to resort to violence, often under the notion of "self-defense" or because they are fighting a "war", my assumption would be that they are likely more on the pro side.[/QUOTE] Like I said before, theres believers in nonviolent methods in the group and it doesn't have a specific set of beliefs that are outside dismantling facism Black Bloc Antifa would be pro while nonviolent protesters could be liberals who hold anti gun beliefs. It's a mixed bag [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] There are non extremist anti fa members. I know some who call themselves anti fa but only go protest Even history has shown nonviolent anti facism parties

If AntiFa is okay, can we have AntiCom too? I mean, communism got to live longer than fascism despite killing nearly triple the numbers.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51794881]They have a platform to begin with, they'll always have one because there is no way to stop them. If it's not done in public, it's done in private through whispers and barn meetings. The difference is that you literally cannot stop them if you don't challenge them. Their views are automatically legitimized and validated because they weren't challenged on it. And punching them does nothing to take that away, it doesn't make what they said go away or change. It doesn't give people an alternate view nor change what they heard. You've simply punched someone in the face and nothing more. You mention echo chambers and being so entrenched in one's ideas and seeing opponents as lesser beings. Yet in the same post you say they shouldn't be debated and there is no merit to debating them, that debating them just validates them. But that isn't how it works. You're challenging their ideas, you're countering them. The idea doesn't change in validity just because it was talked about. It's the facts of the ideas that establishes validity, and if you provide none, you have no validity. If someone says something is just there opinion, you can remind them that opinions ultimately are based in the real world around facts. That their opinion can be criticized and is be wrong. [B]And again, don't focus just on converting the opponent, convert the audience, win people over to your ideals. They're as much a part of the debate as you and your opponent are.[/B][/QUOTE][emphasis mine] This point can't be stressed enough. If you win the audience's favour, you can utterly strip your opponent of power in our (just any any, really) society. However, if you e.g. punch someone, you push the audience over to the victim's side [I]very[/I] quickly and thereby strip [I]yourself[/I] of power.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795256]If AntiFa is okay, can we have AntiCom too? I mean, communism got to live longer than fascism despite killing nearly triple the numbers.[/QUOTE] You mean like when Americans would kill anyone they thought was a commie during the cold war because that's anti communist right There was extremists against communism and those that just wrote and worked under it like samizdat. Just like antifa [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] Organized anti communism exists [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communism[/url]

[QUOTE=papaya;51794976]do you really need to ask 'whats wrong with being a Nazi' like are you for real right now[/QUOTE] his point is that it's probably not a good idea to have a loosely defined label floating around that justifies political violence, if there is some criteria for when you are allowed to beat up non-violent people for their views then it's not unreasonable to want a clear definition for it

The problem with this whole "the real fascists are the anti-fascists" argument is that fascism and communism are not mirror images of each other. They are fundamentally different ideologies. Notably, in that Marxist thought does not necessitate ethnic cleansing and the suppression of opposing thought.

Being anti-anything really and having a whole movement formed around the thoughts will lead to extremists no matter what as fervor can grow extremely strong for a movement as it expands, leaders or not For every MLK there's a Malcom X fighting for similar goals

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3vkQvNXAAAHAt3.jpg[/IMG] Yeah, I completely hate ANTIFA and it's [I]harmless[/I] antics

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51795347][IMG][/IMG][/QUOTE] That was someone's personal account and did not represent an entire movement. I can make an account called "delaware trump supporters" and threaten to kill Elon musk but that doesn't mean I represent all trump supporters in Delaware Its an unverified twitter [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] [url]https://archive.fo/Tqf91[/url]

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795256]If AntiFa is okay, can we have AntiCom too? I mean, communism got to live longer than fascism despite killing nearly triple the numbers.[/QUOTE] oh look an american forgot Mccarthyism