Change.org Petition Wants ANTIFA Declared a ‘Terrorist Organization’ - Polidicks

[QUOTE=papaya;51795581]if all it takes is a smashed shop window for you to turn racist then, well. its the same rubbish argument as 'sjws MADE me vote for trump by calling me a cracker and saying black lives matter!!'[/QUOTE] God do you ever get tired of responding to shit people didnt say?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795621]Antifa is no better than the early SA in many regards. Violence and property destruction, wanton mayhem and a passion for shutting opposing views down, regardless of their position. If you disagree, you are an enemy in their eyes. Antifa is a terrorist organization.[/QUOTE] Just like I asked SenhorCreeper, can you prove this is a majority or even a large part of the movement Can you even prove it's not just anarchists

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795621]Antifa is no better than the early SA in many regards. Violence and property destruction, wanton mayhem and a passion for shutting opposing views down, regardless of their position. If you disagree, you are an enemy in their eyes. Antifa is a terrorist organization.[/QUOTE] Are you describing antifa or the foreign policy of the U.S. Government throughout the later half of the 20th century?

Quantifying entire groups from extremists is a slippery slope

[QUOTE=papaya;51795581]if all it takes is a smashed shop window for you to turn racist then, well. its the same rubbish argument as 'sjws MADE me vote for trump by calling me a cracker and saying black lives matter!!'[/QUOTE] I dunno, if you're a middle aged business owner barely struggling to get by and some edgy kiddos destroys your businesses forcing you to pay for repairs that you can't afford that could turn anyone over the edge.

[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51795629]Are you describing antifa or the foreign policy of the U.S. Government throughout the later half of the 20th century?[/QUOTE] Nice deflection, but no, actually. Read what I said.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795636]Nice deflection, but no, actually. Read what I said.[/QUOTE] Can you answer what I asked though The trick is you can't because you can't even prove that these aren't just anarchists you're talking about

[QUOTE=eirexe;51795597]That's the key point, people believe you can debate fascism out of existence, but because of how fascism is, it's inherent violence and other traits make it impossible to debate, because it makes no sense in the first place.[/QUOTE]This requires that fascists are entirely irrational and that fascism is natural to them. Again, this completely flies in the face of established sociological theory, it dehumanizes them in to something incapable of reasoning. But this is not the case, and treating them as such entrenches them in their views. [QUOTE]When the argument is "we need more equality" vs "war and violence are good and someitmes desirable because it creates a strong country" there's not much you can debate, you are effectively debating with a madman.[/QUOTE]But that isn't the argument. You argue each point, you defeat each idea, you don't try to counter one idea with something entirely irrelevant.

[QUOTE=KillRay;51795639]Can you answer what I asked though[/QUOTE] I cannot at the moment as I am stuck on mobile. I will try to the best of my ability when I get my computer. If I am proven wrong, then I am proven wrong. I'd actually like to be, honestly, and not be afraid of people who "speak for me" for once.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795650]I cannot at the moment as I am stuck on mobile. I will try to the best of my ability when I get my computer. If I am proven wrong, then I am proven wrong. I'd actually like to be, honestly, and not be afraid of people who "speak for me" for once.[/QUOTE] You have to remember the latest case of "anti fa violence" at the UC Berkley event a) was not a purely anti-fa protest even from the start and b) has confirmed anarchist involvement. Anarchists/extremists are opportunists and give bad names to movements who are often majority peaceful by rioting and looting, taking advantage of commotion to try and incite fervor

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;51795632]Funny how the people telling us to debate are the same ones signing a petition to silence people they don't like. Maybe they should practice what they preach.[/QUOTE] No, it isn't about silencing people. They're not stopped from speaking and protesting. What it says is that this is an non-governmental group that uses violence against people in an effort to influence politics. It doesn't even stop them from identifying as one. As said, the Sovereign Citizens are considered the greatest domestic terrorist threat in the country, but people identify as them all the time, they're allowed to speak all the time.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795636]Nice deflection, but no, actually. Read what I said.[/QUOTE] I did, and I respect your stance :smile:, but to be honest with you my friend you appear to have a close-minded view of the situation. The FBI definition of "terrorism" is really fucking vague, to be honest. Just as "violence does not a free country make," "enabling anti-democratic fascists to gain ground by giving them a platform funded by taxpayers many of whom would likely suffer under said fascists" does not a free country make either and, for that matter "designating every group with an extreme worldview as terrorist organizations subject to discrimination by the state" does a free country make as well.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51795647]This requires that fascists are entirely irrational and that fascism is natural to them. Again, this completely flies in the face of established sociological theory, it dehumanizes them in to something incapable of reasoning. But this is not the case, and treating them as such entrenches them in their views. But that isn't the argument. You argue each point, you defeat each idea, you don't try to counter one idea with something entirely irrelevant.[/QUOTE] Fascism is the most irrational ideology there is, it's objective to expand the country through war is irrational, it's racism is irrational because it's based on ideas that have since been proven false by science. It calls itself a mix between socialism and nationalism, but socialism is inherently incompatible with the fascist view of nationalism.

[QUOTE=eirexe;51795678]Fascism is the most irrational ideology there is, it's objective to expand the country through war is irrational, it's racism is irrational because it's based on ideas that have since been proven false by science. It calls itself a mix between socialism and nationalism, but socialism is inherently incompatible with the fascist view of nationalism.[/QUOTE] You described fascism and national socialism. Same spectrum but different ideologies.

[QUOTE=eirexe;51795678]Fascism is the most irrational ideology there is, it's objective to expand the country through war is irrational, it's racism is irrational because it's based on ideas that have since been proven false by science. It calls itself a mix between socialism and nationalism, but socialism is inherently incompatible with the fascist view of nationalism.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and assaulting (and, after that doesn't work, murdering) fascists is also fucking irrational and [b]actually fascist.[/b]

Unless you mean early fascism then yes [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] Merge

[QUOTE=eirexe;51795678]Fascism is the most irrational ideology there is, it's objective to expand the country through war is irrational, it's racism is irrational because it's based on ideas that have since been proven false by science. It calls itself a mix between socialism and nationalism, but socialism is inherently incompatible with the fascist view of nationalism.[/QUOTE] And what about it? You can still debate them. You can debate each of those points and show why they are irrational and wrong. Especially if it is as irrational as you say, then it will be effortless.

[QUOTE=papaya;51795448]I've never condoned murder against them but hey keep putting words in my mouth[/QUOTE] You can punch the nazis You can set fire to their property You can damage local shops that have nothing to do with it You can beat them to an inch of their lives But dont kill them, thats bad tho.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795687]You described fascism and national socialism. Same spectrum but different ideologies.[/QUOTE] That doesn't change the fact that both fascism and national socialism are irrational. Italian fascism wasn't that different from german National Socialism, in fact most would say that Nazism is a form of fascism with antisemitism on top.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;51795695]And what about it? You can still debate them. You can debate each of those points and show why they are irrational and wrong. Especially if it is as irrational as you say, then it will be effortless.[/QUOTE] Just want to point out that I appreciate your continued dedication to logic and reason, despite the heightenend emotions ITT. I disagree that fascists can be debated out of existence, but I look forward to more debates with you on this topic :) I'm having a blast in this thread :D

[QUOTE=geel9;51795689]Yeah, and assaulting (and, after that doesn't work, murdering) fascists is also fucking irrational and [B]actually fascist.[/B][/QUOTE] I never condoned killing fascists. But I don't get the whole killing fascists makes you fascist, it makes no sense, the violent antifa minority does not see violence as an inherently necessary part of human nature, they see violence as means to an end which is to destroy fascists and make them vanish from the face of earth. Other antifas use other methods besides from debating and killing or destroying property, like the Spanish anti-fascist protests in the day of hispanity.

[QUOTE=eirexe;51795715]I never condoned killing fascists. But I don't get the whole killing fascists makes you fascist, it makes no sense, the violent antifa minority does not see violence as an inherently necessary part of human nature, they see violence as means to an end which is to destroy fascists and make them vanish from the face of earth.[/QUOTE] Replace "fascist" with any other ideology and you raise some serious red flags.

[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51795706]Just want to point out that I appreciate your continued dedication to logic and reason, despite the heightenend emotions ITT. I disagree that fascists can be debated out of existence, but I look forward to more debates with you on this topic :) I'm having a blast in this thread :D[/QUOTE] See, this is what I like seeing. We disagree, but we can both actually maintain the dialogue and look to revist it and other ones. If I had been insulting towards people here and openly hostile, I don't think it would have reached this.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795718]Replace "fascist" with any other ideology and you raise some serious red flags.[/QUOTE] Radical Islamic Terrorism/Radical Islamism/Radical Jihadism

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795687]You described fascism and national socialism. Same spectrum but different ideologies.[/QUOTE] Saying that national socialists aren't fascists is a bit like saying Baptists aren't Christians. Is it that hard to recognize that some ideologies can be subsets within other larger ones?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795718]Replace "fascist" with any other ideology and you raise some serious red flags.[/QUOTE] No, replacing fascists with any other major political ideology makes no sense, because as far as I know there are no other major ideologies that see war as something desirable that strengthens national unity. Unless you go to religious ideologies in which case you could include jihadism.

[QUOTE=Aredbomb;51795518]That's not his point. If you want information about a group of people you don't go to a manipulative fearmongering dickhead like Sargon or Alex Jones and assume that it's useful information just because you didn't notice anything "off" about it. Even if it is true, you can be damn sure that information is going to be available somewhere that has a shred of integrity.[/QUOTE] I've been watching Sargon of Akkad for a year and a half. Nothing I've seen makes me think he is a "manipulative fearmongering dickhead" or that he is even remotely like Alex Jones. This kind of lumping people together you don't like is exactly why terms like Nazi, racist, homophobic, etc get watered down and ignored. Because people overuse it to describe people who are none of those things. For instance, how many times has it be repeated that "Milo is a Nazi" despite the fact that he is a homosexual Jew that likes blacks as lovers. I know you and others don't like them but lying about them isn't the way to convince anyone that they're wrong. Just like with these riots that Antifa had against Milo. Milo is very provocative because he is trying to get a reaction out of those that don't like what he has to say. However, what he has been saying doesn't support Nazis, doesn't support racism, doesn't support homophobia, etc. Yet he gets labeled all these things because people want to use those labels to discredit him even though they don't apply to him.

[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51795723]Radical Islamic Terrorism/Radical Islamism/Radical Jihadism[/QUOTE] Stalinism/Marxism/Maoism Some other dangerous ideals too. Not just fascists

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;51795733]Stalinism/Marxism/Maoism Some other dangerous ideals too. Not just fascists[/QUOTE] Marxism doest not see war as a necessary/good thing, if you really think marxism and fascism are equally worse you need to read a bit into what those words actually mean.

[QUOTE=eirexe;51795729]No, replacing fascists with any other major political ideology makes no sense, because as far as I know there are no other major ideologies that see war as something desirable that strengthens national unity. Unless you go to religious ideologies in which case you could include jihadism.[/QUOTE] It's not about the specific views of those ideologies, but ideology itself. Whether or not other ideologies see war as desirable is irrelevant, because it's not about that specifically.