Change.org Petition Wants ANTIFA Declared a ‘Terrorist Organization’
373 replies, posted
[QUOTE=eirexe;51795953]That's not a generlization, it's the academic definition of it.[/QUOTE]
no its not
[QUOTE=geel9;51795937]Being a fascist and saying you're not doesn't make you not a fascist.[/QUOTE]
Antifa are not fascist, antifa was originally anti-communist too.
For them to be fascist they would need to follow the fascist ideology, and they don't.
[QUOTE=KillRay;51795859]you argued before that you can dress up like a nazi and scream 1488 and not be an actual nazi whys this so different
[editline]8th February 2017[/editline]
again senhor give me STATS
give me PROOF that the MAJORITY of antifa protesters are violent[/QUOTE]
While you can be pretend to be a nazi in public, you still can be a huge fucking douchebag, you sure you're not the one here strawmanning and not mentioning the rest on what I said on the same thread you got that?
Why do you want stats so much for a group like antifa? especially such stat where such can't be found. Or one I've seen people use before. Unless you count this embarrassing one
[url]http://www.dailywire.com/news/13248/study-9-10-antifa-protesters-still-living-moms-aaron-bandler[/url]
By the way, for someone who really likes to ask for stats you haven't done nothing but complain about others not giving stats, so where is your stats? do you even have a reliable stat in the first place?
[QUOTE=papaya;51795959]by the sounds of it it seems more the opposite - that a whole dogpile of 'free speech advocates' would rush to it to make up for the poor capital lost by the shop because of their poor shop window :(([/QUOTE]
You are actively condoning people's livelihood get damaged and making innocent people pay for something hat some extremist thought would get their point across.
[QUOTE=papaya;51795959]by the sounds of it it seems more the opposite - that a whole dogpile of 'free speech advocates' would rush to it to make up for the poor capital lost by the shop because of their poor shop window :(([/QUOTE]
Isn't this what insurance is for anyway
[QUOTE=geel9;51795937]Being a fascist and saying you're not doesn't make you not a fascist.[/QUOTE]
Also, people trying to claim antifa are fascists too, it seems.
lol, do you also believe all the communists/anarchists/others who opposed fascists and spent most of the time either beating the shit out of the fascists(and getting beaten up too) in the early 20th century were all actually secretly fascists? (i'm not referring to WW2, btw), if you actually believe the usage of violence in ANY situation makes you a fascist, then... welp, i don't even know what to tell you, except maybe read a history book or something.
[QUOTE=Solomon;51795968]no its not[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/right-wing[/url]
[url]http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/left-wing[/url]
[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51795975]While you can be pretend to be a nazi in public, you still can be a huge fucking douchebag, you sure you're not the one here strawmanning and not mentioning the rest on what I said on the same thread you got that?
Why do you want stats so much for a group like antifa? especially such stat where such can't be found. Or one I've seen people use before. Unless you count this embarrassing one
[url]http://www.dailywire.com/news/13248/study-9-10-antifa-protesters-still-living-moms-aaron-bandler[/url]
By the way, for someone who really likes to ask for stats you haven't done nothing but complain about others not giving stats, so where is your stats? do you even have a reliable stat in the first place?[/QUOTE]
i want stats because only complete morons and those without any world view try and completely vilify an entire movement without statistics
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;51795984]Also, people trying to claim antifa are fascists too, it seems.
lol, do you also believe all the communists/anarchists/others who opposed fascists and spent most of the time either beating the shit out of the fascists(and getting beaten up too) in the early 20th century were all actually secretly fascists? (i'm not referring to WW2, btw), if you actually believe the usage of violence in ANY situation makes you a fascist, then... welp, i don't even know what to tell you, except maybe read a history book or something.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, by that definition police officers are all fascists too (as are members of the armed forces).
[QUOTE=papaya;51795878]to again use milo's UC Berkeley talk as an example, what is the proper response to a bad thing when the good peaceful ways of stopping it don't work?
Antifa aren't typically violent. Black bloc are, I guess, but the two are different. They don't just resort to violence (those poor poor shop windows wont someone PLEASE think of the shop windows :(( ) when they see something bad, it's a response to when there are no other options, when shit like peaceful protests don't work, when despite all the talk about how 'no, really, he's bad stop giving him a platform' people are still doing it and patting themselves on the back as bastions of free speech.
If you help antifa in stopping fascists having a platform, they won't need to be violent.[/QUOTE]
This isn't the 1950's. The internet exists. EVERY political persuasion imaginable has a platform. The idea fhat preventing people from speaking minimalizes their opinions and worldview is completely childish. All it does is attract people to it because they want to know what could they possibly be saying to make you sperg out so much.
[QUOTE=eirexe;51795986][URL]http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/right-wing[/URL]
[URL]http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/left-wing[/URL][/QUOTE]
eirexe, out of curiosity, where do you place yourself on the ideological spectrum?
[QUOTE=KillRay;51795965]if someone can show me actual statistics that anti-fa is a majority violent organization. give me actual numbers and statistics and not links to the anarchist subreddit. i will paypal you 15 bucks[/QUOTE]
Let me use papaya logic.
"its just black and white OK? antifa are all violent because like, if you don't think that then, well."
[QUOTE=Tamschi;51795951]Technically incorrect, since iinm fascism by definition always has a nationalist element.
It is, however, either terrorist or oppressive depending on the power dynamics involved.
The main issue in either case is the use of violence against non-violent targets anyway.
I'm not sure there's a general shorthand for that, but you still shouldn't use incorrect ones for lack thereof.[/QUOTE]
You're absolutely right; I'm using the wrong word. They're terrorists, not fascists.
[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51796021]eirexe, out of curiosity, where do you place yourself on the ideological spectrum?[/QUOTE]
Libertarian Left, around the same place as Syriza and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidos_Podemos"]Unidos Podemos[/URL]
[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51796013]Exactly, by that definition police officers are all fascists too (as are members of the armed forces).[/QUOTE]
The military and police use violence to prevent imminent violent crimes.
Antifa uses violence to harm and scare people they think maybe, perhaps, are linked to a future crime tangentially
[QUOTE=geel9;51796042]The military and police use violence to prevent imminent violent crimes.
Antifa uses violence to harm and scare people they think maybe, perhaps, are linked to a future crime tangentially[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with violent antifas, but fascism is directly relate to violence, it's not tangentially related, it's part of it.
[QUOTE=Solomon;51795968]no its not[/QUOTE]
As a short form it really is, but note that that only constitutes a value judgement depending on your personal beliefs.
If you have a serious problem with it, chances are you're mistakenly identifying with a political current without having looked into it, or are mistaken about its left/right standing. Most parties and politicians represent a mixture anyway, though.
Here's some stats. The official[URL="https://antifainternational.tumblr.com/"] Anti-Facism International organization [/URL] has 4k+ followers on tumblr. [URL]https://intlantifadefence.wordpress.com/[/URL] This is their site as well
They are not a militant organization. Yet they recieve plenty of donations and [URL="https://antifainternational.tumblr.com/post/154262091444/hey-do-you-guys-have-recent-stats-on-antifas"]tons of support[/URL] while talking about nonviolence
[IMG]http://puu.sh/tUiEq/6c15f79231.png[/IMG]
not saying this is a MAJORITY of all anti-fa, but its much larger than Creepers picked articles of 1-2 people each if people that are anarchists
[QUOTE=eirexe;51796049]I don't agree with violent antifas, but fascism is directly relate to violence, it's not tangentially related, it's part of it.[/QUOTE]
The issue is you're declaring them fascist without them having fulfilled the requirements for being fascists.
These people [b]have not been imminently violent.[/b] If violence is a core part of fascism, then [b]they can't be fascists.[/b]
[QUOTE=geel9;51796042]The military and police use violence to prevent imminent violent crimes.
Antifa uses violence to harm and scare people they think maybe, perhaps, are linked to a future crime tangentially[/QUOTE]
Specifically talking about the military, how do you justify the collateral damage of property and civilian casualties (read: deaths) that occur as a result of targeting people who could commit (future crime) or have committed "immediate violent crimes?"
As for police, many, many millions of Americans have been locked up by police and stripped of rights for non-violent economic crimes (drug use, for example). Don't shit on papaya's simplistic black and white view that white-washes antifa by offering a black and white view that white-washes police and the military who use force EVERY DAY with the SAME GOALS (fitting the FBI's definition of terrorism) as antifa and other violent groups with the only distinction being that they are sanctioned by the state.
[QUOTE=geel9;51796067]
These people [b]have not been imminently violent.[/b] If violence is a core part of fascism, then [b]they can't be fascists.[/b][/QUOTE]
again, hate speech is violence
[QUOTE=papaya;51796073]again, hate speech is violence[/QUOTE]
How. I'm legitimately curious
[QUOTE=geel9;51796067]The issue is you're declaring them fascist without them having fulfilled the requirements for being fascists.
These people [b]have not been imminently violent.[/b] If violence is a core part of fascism, then [b]they can't be fascists.[/b][/QUOTE]
Fascists are not dumb, being violent when you are not in power is not a good idea most of the time.
Also, calm down with those bolds, they make you seem nervous to get your message across, maybe drink a bit of water or go for a walk?
[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51795975]While you can be pretend to be a nazi in public, you still can be a huge fucking douchebag, you sure you're not the one here strawmanning and not mentioning the rest on what I said on the same thread you got that?
Why do you want stats so much for a group like antifa? especially such stat where such can't be found. Or one I've seen people use before. Unless you count this embarrassing one
[url]http://www.dailywire.com/news/13248/study-9-10-antifa-protesters-still-living-moms-aaron-bandler[/url]
By the way, for someone who really likes to ask for stats you haven't done nothing but complain about others not giving stats, so where is your stats? do you even have a reliable stat in the first place?[/QUOTE]
Burden of proof is on you. The claim was made that antifas were, as a whole, violent and should be thus labeled a terrorist organization, and we want empirical (not anecdotal or circumstantial) evidence to support that claim. It's not that hard.
[QUOTE=eirexe;51796085]Fascists are not dumb, being violent when you are not in power is not a good idea most of the time.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter? They're not being violent, ergo, they're not fascists.
Furthermore, they're not being violent, so violence is not justified against them.
I mean, you can't even shoot someone who's running away after they've broken into your house. What makes you think you're allowed to just assault people based on the suspicion that they [b]might[/b] belong to a certain ideology and [b]might[/b] become violent, based solely on [b]the label you applied to them[/b]?
[QUOTE=geel9;51796105]It doesn't matter? They're not being violent, ergo, they're not fascists.
Furthermore, they're not being violent, so violence is not justified against them.
I mean, you can't even shoot someone who's running away after they've broken into your house. What makes you think you're allowed to just assault people based on the suspicion that they [B]might[/B] belong to a certain ideology and [B]might[/B] become violent, based solely on [B]the label you applied to them[/B]?[/QUOTE]
Actually, you totally can shoot someone who has committed a violent felony, even if they are running away, in several states.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy[/url]
[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51796113]Actually, you totally can shoot someone who has committed a violent felony, even if they are running away, in several states.[/QUOTE]
Federally this is not the case, but okay.
[QUOTE=geel9;51796105]It doesn't matter? They're not being violent, ergo, they're not fascists.
Furthermore, they're not being violent, so violence is not justified against them.
I mean, you can't even shoot someone who's running away after they've broken into your house. What makes you think you're allowed to just assault people based on the suspicion that they [b]might[/b] belong to a certain ideology and [b]might[/b] become violent, based solely on [b]the label you applied to them[/b]?[/QUOTE]
I never said attacking fascists is justified, but you can't call antifa fascist because they are not, fascists just believe that violence is necessary and desirable, violent antifa believe that violence is justified in some extreme cases, it's a completely different thing.
[QUOTE=geel9;51796115]Federally this is not the case, but okay.[/QUOTE]
And? In practice [I][B]it is[/B][/I] the case, therefore that part of your argument doesn't really hold any water.
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