• Israel bombs Gaza strip again - 2 dead, 20 civilians wounded
    69 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Earthen;36483422]What are you on about? They don't target specific tactical points. They target hospitals, infrastructure, and industry. They've bombed sewage treatment plants and fishing boats so that Gazan people can't get livelihood from the ocean. 96% of Gazans live off of donated food to survive. Israel has destroyed 80% of Gaza's agricultural industry in one month (Dec 2008). They have a complete blockade on Gaza so they people have nothing; no jobs, no food, no power, no water, no nothing. The Israelis even stole the natural gas desposits in Gaza's territorial waters. And if you seriously are trying to say that collateral damage is okay because they're not specifically targeting civilians then you're fucked up in the head.[/quote] For the Drone strikes, yes they do. They don't target those places because they're evil, they target them because they're used to smuggle or house weapons and militants, that's also what the blockade is for. They know this is a problem, so they supply them with huge amounts of aid and even provide a good part of their power supply. If not for these blockades, conflict would escalate into a proper war and you'd end up with Cast Lead again, tough choice, and one you will never acknowledge exists. [quote]Hamas is not the problem. They are a reaction to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, shit they were democratically elected and Israel bombed them because they won the election. The Palestinian people don't have any options left because Israel and the US support the genocide. Hamas have said multiple times that they want peace and only if it abides by multiple UN resolutions concerning the proposed peace. Every single time a ceasefire is implemented, Israel breaks it.[/QUOTE] Being reactionary or democratically elected doesn't stop them from being hostile to Israel and them taking action. Hamas won't even come to the negotiating table, they demand peace under arbitrary terms, pretty irrational behaviour for someone who doesn't have any other options. [quote]Thats basically what the Israeli tactic is. They cause so much damage that the Palestinian people can't do anything. Christ, half the casualties in all the bombings and invasions are women and children. Gadi Eizenkot, the chief of the Northern Command said that for 'us villages are military bases'.[/quote] Man, you have no idea what the statement means. Hamas and Hezbollah are guerillas, they hide in civilian areas as guerillas have always done. They don't have established military bases, so they operate out of those villages. It's not meant to convey that they treat them exactly the same, they understand how difficult it is more than you. [quote]PLA is now Israel's bitch, they do whatever Israel and the US wants them to do, why do you think more rockets are fired from Gaza than from the West Bank.[/quote] HAHAHAHA, oh wow. And I'm guessing every neighbouring country is also Israel's bitch now because they haven't waged a futile war in 40 years. Negotiation means you have to give some things up just like you expect them to, something you both agree upon has to be reached. Is your view of diplomacy so archaic that the only relationship possible is vassal-liege?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;36491638]For the Drone strikes, yes they do. They don't target those places because they're evil, they target them because they're used to smuggle or house weapons and militants, that's also what the blockade is for. They know this is a problem, so they supply them with huge amounts of aid and even provide a good part of their power supply. If not for these blockades, conflict would escalate into a proper war and you'd end up with Cast Lead again, tough choice, and one you will never acknowledge exists.[/quote] Doesn't change the fact that they hit civilians more often than they hit Hamas guerrillas. The blockade is bullshit, they built an apartheid style wall around Gaza and don't let in any consumer goods. Here is an example; in 2008 Israel broke the ceasefire and imposed a blockade. They've blocked maintenance equipment for water treatment plants and sewage treatment plants. They denied fuel to the power plants (of which there is only) so the people have barely any power still. They only let in 5 trucks of food per day during the blockade. The people are starving and the blockade is doing nothing good. You also ignored the fact that Israel stole Palestine's natural gas reserves. [quote]Being reactionary or democratically elected doesn't stop them from being hostile to Israel and them taking action. Hamas won't even come to the negotiating table, they demand peace under arbitrary terms, pretty irrational behaviour for someone who doesn't have any other options.[/quote] Hamas have come to the negotiating table multiple times. They only take action when Israel breaks a ceasefire or starts hunting guerrillas in the Gaza Strip. They demand peace that respects the Palestinians' right to land. They are acting 'irrational' because they have no other options, are you saying they should just give up all hope and their right to their land, and let Israel brutalise them some more? [quote]Man, you have no idea what the statement means. Hamas and Hezbollah are guerillas, they hide in civilian areas as guerillas have always done. They don't have established military bases, so they operate out of those villages. It's not meant to convey that they treat them exactly the same, they understand how difficult it is more than you.[/quote] Yes of course there are guerrillas hiding in villages (not many actually hide in villages, you're thinking of Afghanistan), but that does not give Israel the right to indiscriminately target civilians like that nor the right to go against all international law. They do not understand what those people have to go through every single fucking day and neither do you. Have you ever even been to a third world country? I don't give a shit whether its difficult for military commanders to not target civilians because it isn't, all they have to do is just not fucking target civilian areas. [quote]HAHAHAHA, oh wow. And I'm guessing every neighbouring country is also Israel's bitch now because they haven't waged a futile war in 40 years. Negotiation means you have to give some things up just like you expect them to, something you both agree upon has to be reached. Is your view of diplomacy so archaic that the only relationship possible is vassal-liege?[/QUOTE] They're not Israel's bitch, they're just America's bitch. Israel refuses to accept any proposals from the Palestinians because they mean the Israelis would have to treat them like human beings. Just look at the Oslo accords or the Madrid Conference or the Camp David agreement. All failed because of Israel and all disregarded what the Palestinians want. There have been multiple UN resolutions calling for Israeli withdrawal from occupied land, but they have always disregarded those calls because the US is big daddy.
I'm pretty sure Israeli armed forces aren't indiscriminately targeting civilian areas. If they were, Gaza City wouldn't even exist anymore. e: Can we stop the "poor Hamas" line, too? They're an anti-Semitic terrorist group who pump out anti-Jewish propaganda to Palestinian children and target Israeli schoolbuses, kill kids and call it a holy victory. Their official foreign policy goals include the destruction of Israel; they've repeatedly refused to participate in negotiations. It's all well and good to defend the Palestinian Authority, but Hamas are just thugs riding off anti-Israeli sentiment and the ever-present current of anti-Semitism.
[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;36496914]I'm pretty sure Israeli armed forces aren't indiscriminately targeting civilian areas. If they were, Gaza City wouldn't even exist anymore. e: Can we stop the "poor Hamas" line, too? They're an anti-Semitic terrorist group who pump out anti-Jewish propaganda to Palestinian children and target Israeli schoolbuses, kill kids and call it a holy victory. Their official foreign policy goals include the destruction of Israel; they've repeatedly refused to participate in negotiations. It's all well and good to defend the Palestinian Authority, but Hamas are just thugs riding off anti-Israeli sentiment and the ever-present current of anti-Semitism.[/QUOTE] Just because they indiscriminately target civilian areas doesn't mean they wipe everyone out. There are more than enough cases of Israelis blowing up civilians. Example: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache#Israel[/url] they shot an ambulance. They are more anti-zionist than anti-semitic. It is absolutely abhorrent that they kill children, however, to say that Israel is somehow better is disgusting. Israel has killed many more people and always acts disproportionately in these situations. How about when that soldier Galid Shilat, the whole world was freaking out, but nobody cared that just the day before two civilians were kidnapped. It was certainly wrong to kidnap Galid Shilat, but at least he was a soldier so he was legitimate target. They only refuse to participate in negotiations when Israel breaks ceasefires and refuses to put them back in place. They have changed their goals, and they are now simply to give peace to the Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority are scum who don't care about their people. They hate Israel because of what the Israelis have done to their people. You cannot really be that stupid to think that Israel is innocent, what about 1948 or Sabra and Chatila or all the invasions of Gaza and Lebanon. It is not antisemitism to think that Israel is a fake country built on stolen lands and the deaths of thousands of innocents. If you think I'm an antisemite because I think this then you have some serious issues.
[QUOTE=Earthen;36497025]Just because they indiscriminately target civilian areas doesn't mean they wipe everyone out. There are more than enough cases of Israelis blowing up civilians. Example: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache#Israel[/url] they shot an ambulance. They are more anti-zionist than anti-semitic. It is absolutely abhorrent that they kill children, however, to say that Israel is somehow better is disgusting. Israel has killed many more people and always acts disproportionately in these situations. How about when that soldier Galid Shilat, the whole world was freaking out, but nobody cared that just the day before two civilians were kidnapped. It was certainly wrong to kidnap Galid Shilat, but at least he was a soldier so he was legitimate target. They only refuse to participate in negotiations when Israel breaks ceasefires and refuses to put them back in place. They have changed their goals, and they are now simply to give peace to the Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority are scum who don't care about their people. They hate Israel because of what the Israelis have done to their people. You cannot really be that stupid to think that Israel is innocent, what about 1948 or Sabra and Chatila or all the invasions of Gaza and Lebanon. It is not antisemitism to think that Israel is a fake country built on stolen lands and the deaths of thousands of innocents. If you think I'm an antisemite because I think this then you have some serious issues.[/QUOTE] Few claims in there so I'll go point by point: -Actually, there's been cases of Hezbollah using ambulances to smuggle weapons. Perhaps not in that once incident, but your source doesn't list any information about the attack, so it's hard to say. - Hamas are anti-semitic. Their charter is filled with anti-semitic references (granted, they claim to have renounced all that, but that's questionable given other activities); senior members are on record making anti-semitic remarks; they consider the Holocaust a myth and refuse to let it be studied; their children's magazine, Al-Fateh, and state-run media services publish anti-semitic material. They're anti-Zionist, sure - but they also simply hate Jews. - It's difficult to get into numbers, given that Hamas forces often tread the line between combatant and non-combatant, but for argument's sake let's assume that Israeli armed forces, in the recent history of the conflict, have killed more civilians than Hamas forces. There's a crucial difference between the two - intent. Although you may hate to admit it, Israeli forces do act with a degree of restraint when conducting military operations in the urban area of Gaza. Hence, it's obvious that civilian casualties as a rule (excluding the odd IDF nutcase, and nutcases appear in every armed force) do not target civilians - they target militants, and civilians are accidentally killed in the cross-fire. That's horrible, yes; however, Hamas also bear responsibility for these attacks, as they launch rocket attacks from highly-populated areas. For them, the aftermath is win-win - they either escape unharmed, as Israeli forces don't return fire, or Israeli forces DO return fire and civilians may be killed, granting them a propaganda victory. It's despicable. In contrast, Hamas actively targets Israeli civilians, including children - not merely IDF. - Shilat was a legitimate target, yes - however, as a legitimate target, he also had rights under the Geneva Convention that were ignored for years. I'm not claiming that Israel is innocent of mistreatment of detainees, but that doesn't change the injustice of Shilat's imprisonment. - Israel isn't the one refusing to participate in negotiations; Hamas and the PA are. There's doubts over whether Hamas is sincere in its desire to make peace with Israel, but that remains to be seen. Israel-Palestinian conflict aside, I also have doubts over the legitimacy of Hamas rule under any circumstance - they're a fundamentalist Islamic militant group with a gross record of treatment of the usual persecuted minorities (e.g. gays). "Peace for the Palestinians" sounds too broad to be true. - I'm not sure why you're saying the PA don't care for their people. They probably do. - Oh, I'm not saying there haven't been atrocities committed on both sides. But the fact you have to go back to the 80s to find evidence of a comprehensive Israeli atrocity against refugees says a lot about the legitimacy of both sides. The invasions of Gaza/Lebanon are also hardly black and white, and I'm not going to blanketly accept them as Israeli crimes. - Israel's not a fake country; it's a democracy for a long-persecuted minority. The lands aren't simply "stolen lands"; there's an argument to be made that post-1967 Israeli territory is stolen, but not to claim that the State of Israel doesn't deserve to exist. Finally, saying Israel is built on the "deaths of thousands" is a gross simplification of a two-sided, murky conflict. - I don't think you're an anti-semite. I never said you were.
[QUOTE=The Pretender;36464936]It is in retaliation to rockets fired into Israel though, don't forget to mention that.[/QUOTE] Those rockets barely do anything. Israel is being the typical, remorseless asshole, and overreacting for the sake of it. I can't understand why the world hasn't embargoed Israel
[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;36497276]Few claims in there so I'll go point by point: -Actually, there's been cases of Hezbollah using ambulances to smuggle weapons. Perhaps not in that once incident, but your source doesn't list any information about the attack, so it's hard to say.[/quote] The source is from Robert Fisk, a journalist who was present, he was literally in the ambulance in front of it. He saw who was inside the ambulance. Of course Hezbollah have used ambulances, which is wrong, but that does not give Israel the right to target ambulances. [quote]- Hamas are anti-semitic. Their charter is filled with anti-semitic references (granted, they claim to have renounced all that, but that's questionable given other activities); senior members are on record making anti-semitic remarks; they consider the Holocaust a myth and refuse to let it be studied; their children's magazine, Al-Fateh, and state-run media services publish anti-semitic material. They're anti-Zionist, sure - but they also simply hate Jews. [/quote] They have renounced their anti-semitism because it is not the way forward. They understand that peace is more important. Hamas have stated multiple times that they are at war with Israel politically and not because of religion. [quote]- It's difficult to get into numbers, given that Hamas forces often tread the line between combatant and non-combatant, but for argument's sake let's assume that Israeli armed forces, in the recent history of the conflict, have killed more civilians than Hamas forces. There's a crucial difference between the two - intent. Although you may hate to admit it, Israeli forces do act with a degree of restraint when conducting military operations in the urban area of Gaza. Hence, it's obvious that civilian casualties as a rule (excluding the odd IDF nutcase, and nutcases appear in every armed force) do not target civilians - they target militants, and civilians are accidentally killed in the cross-fire. That's horrible, yes; however, Hamas also bear responsibility for these attacks, as they launch rocket attacks from highly-populated areas. For them, the aftermath is win-win - they either escape unharmed, as Israeli forces don't return fire, or Israeli forces DO return fire and civilians may be killed, granting them a propaganda victory. It's despicable. In contrast, Hamas actively targets Israeli civilians, including children - not merely IDF. [/quote] Israeli forces do not act with restraint when they march into Palestine and bomb indiscriminately. There is no restraint in the first place, sort of like the use of white phosphorus. Is that restraint? Civilian casualties regardless are detestable. Collateral damage is not an excuse for civilian deaths. Yes Hamas does fire rockets from heavily populated areas, but then again Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. It is wrong of Hamas to target civilians, but at the same time an army is more responsible for its actions because of its coherent structure and leadership. [URL]http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/08/13/israel-investigate-white-flag-shootings-gaza-civilians[/URL] - 'During Israel's recent Gaza offensive, [B]Israeli soldiers unlawfully shot and killed 11 Palestinian civilians[/B], including five women and four children, who were in groups waving white flags to convey their civilian status, Human Rights Watch said in a [URL="http://www.hrw.org/node/85014"]report[/URL] released today.' -'In one case documented in the report, on January 7 in eastern Jabalya, two women and three children from the family of Khalid ‘Abd Rabbo were standing in front of their home after an Israeli soldier ordered them outside - at least three of them holding pieces of white cloth - when a soldier near a tank opened fire, killing two girls, ages 2 and 7, and wounding the third girl and their grandmother.' [URL]http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-investigation-shows-errant-mortar-hit-un-building-in-gaza-1.267873[/URL] -'Nonetheless, in discussing the incident with Haaretz, some [B]IDF officers say the force should have refrained from using mortar rounds and relied instead on more accurate fire[/B]. Military sources said the UNRWA building was marked on the maps of forces operating in the area.' (42 civilians died) [URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/20/gaza-israelandthepalestinians[/URL] -'Given the enormous scale of what Palestinians have [URL="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/gaza-israel-palestine"]described[/URL] as a "war of extermination" – it appears that some [URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3658078,00.html"]15%[/URL] of all buildings in the Gaza Strip were completely destroyed or collapsed and there is an [URL="http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/01/14/first-gaza-damage-estimate-14-billion/"]estimated $1.4bn[/URL] worth of destruction to vital civil infrastructure – it is impossible to list every atrocity. [B]Israel has repeatedly hit ambulances, [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=1055233"]medics[/URL], [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-clinics-destroyed-by-raids-1332022.html"]clinics[/URL], and [URL="http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&Do=&ID=35005"]hospitals[/URL][/B], while last week, [B]aid volunteers who tried to douse a fire in a Red Crescent warehouse (attacked by Israel) were then [URL="http://reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/EDIS-7NBNNL?OpenDocument"]shot at[/URL] by Israeli forces.[/B]' - 'IDF chief of staff, Moshe Ya'alon, in 2002 [said] that "the Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people".' [URL]http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/23/idUSLN537222[/URL] -'Israeli soldiers shot a father after ordering him out of his house and then opened fire into the room where the rest of the family was sheltering, wounding the mother and three brothers and killing a fourth.' -'on January 15, at Tal al Hawa south-west of Gaza City, Israeli soldiers forced an 11-year-old boy to walk in front of them for several hours as they moved through the town, even after they had been shot at.' [URL]http://www.hrw.org/en/node/89574/section/2[/URL] -'In Israel, military authorities have conducted roughly 150 “investigations” of incidents in Gaza, but they have not provided a full list of the cases. [B]Approximately 120 of the 150 investigations are what the military calls an “operational debriefing” – [/B][I][B]tahkir mivza'i[/B][/I][B] in Hebrew. These are after-action reports, not criminal investigations[/B], in which an officer in the chain of command interviews the soldiers involved, with no testimony from victims or witnesses. The debriefings may lead to disciplinary measures or criminal investigations, but they are not a substitute for impartial and thorough investigations into laws-of-war violations. [B]The Military Advocate General had closed 65 of these 120 cases as of April 7, 2010, because it found no grounds for a criminal investigation.[/B] The decisions of the Military Advocate General are subject to review by the Attorney General and the Israeli Supreme Court, but according to Israeli human rights organizations, such reviews rarely take place.' (thats pretty fucked up right? Just dismissing cases) -'Palestinian officials say 1,434 people in Gaza -- 960 of them civilians -- were killed in the fighting, a figure Israel contests' (That high of a civilian to guerrilla death ratio is disgusting, so much for acting with restraint in one of the most heavily populated areas in the world' [URL]http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/amira-hass-palestinian-doctor-killed-by-idf-while-treating-gaza-wounded-1.268089[/URL] -'Dr. Issa Salah, a member of the Palestinian civil defense services, and his team reached the building where the casualties were located around 4:30 P.M. Monday, a few minutes after it was hit by a missile fired by an Israeli helicopter. The residents ran out, having learned that the first such missile is a warning to residents to evacuate the building, before additional missiles demolish it.' [URL]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-clinics-destroyed-by-raids-1332022.html[/URL] -'Israeli warplanes have attacked two fully equipped medical clinics in Gaza, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage' [quote]- Shilat was a legitimate target, yes - however, as a legitimate target, he also had rights under the Geneva Convention that were ignored for years. I'm not claiming that Israel is innocent of mistreatment of detainees, but that doesn't change the injustice of Shilat's imprisonment.[/quote] Yes, but Palestinians were deprived their rights as well and they are literally just civilians who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. [quote]- Israel isn't the one refusing to participate in negotiations; Hamas and the PA are. There's doubts over whether Hamas is sincere in its desire to make peace with Israel, but that remains to be seen. Israel-Palestinian conflict aside, I also have doubts over the legitimacy of Hamas rule under any circumstance - they're a fundamentalist Islamic militant group with a gross record of treatment of the usual persecuted minorities (e.g. gays). "Peace for the Palestinians" sounds too broad to be true.[/quote] Show me where Hamas have refused negotiations. Hamas is sincere that is exactly why they always go to negotiations and always keep to the ceasefires. The legitimacy? The elections were heavily monitored and Hamas won, Israel retaliated because they wanted Fatah to win. Persecution of gay people does not come close to how many Palestinians are persecuted. Don't even try that. It is wrong of Hamas to do that, but there is a far bigger issue right now. I can't find it on the internet so I'll have to look through a book, but there have been multiple times that Israeli negotiators have simply walked away. [quote]- I'm not sure why you're saying the PA don't care for their people. They probably do. [/quote] Doubt it, they do whatever Israel tells them and stands idly by while Israel demolishes villages. [quote]- Oh, I'm not saying there haven't been atrocities committed on both sides. But the fact you have to go back to the 80s to find evidence of a comprehensive Israeli atrocity against refugees says a lot about the legitimacy of both sides. The invasions of Gaza/Lebanon are also hardly black and white, and I'm not going to blanketly accept them as Israeli crimes. [/quote] So what, just because there has been no killing of refugees it makes the treatment of refugees okay? The Israelis have denied the refugees the right to return their own fucking country. They have confiscated the property of the refugees. Tell me, what does it say about Palestine? [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_on_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Palestinian_refugees[/URL] -'Israel maintains that the General Assembly resolutions establishing the Right of Return are merely recommendations under International law' [quote]- Israel's not a fake country; it's a democracy for a long-persecuted minority. The lands aren't simply "stolen lands"; there's an argument to be made that post-1967 Israeli territory is stolen, but not to claim that the State of Israel doesn't deserve to exist. Finally, saying Israel is built on the "deaths of thousands" is a gross simplification of a two-sided, murky conflict. [/quote] Yes the Jewish people have suffered immensely, but that does not mean that we should take away the land of innocent people. [URL]http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm[/URL] -The argument that the Jewish people deserved Israel because it was their ancestral land is bullshit. There were barely any native Jewish people in Israel prior to 1948. If we go along with your logic, the Turks deserve a lot of land back. There is a table just before half-way down the article that shows: [TABLE="width: 500"] [TR] [TD]Year[/TD] [TD]Source[/TD] [TD]Total[/TD] [TD]Muslims[/TD] [TD]Jews[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1922[/TD] [TD]Census[/TD] [TD]752048[/TD] [TD]78%[/TD] [TD]11%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1931[/TD] [TD]Census[/TD] [TD]1033314[/TD] [TD]73%[/TD] [TD]17%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1937[/TD] [TD]Estimate[/TD] [TD]1383320[/TD] [TD]63%[/TD] [TD]28%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1945[/TD] [TD]Survey[/TD] [TD]1845560[/TD] [TD]58%[/TD] [TD]33%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1947[/TD] [TD]Projection[/TD] [TD]1955260[/TD] [TD]58%[/TD] [TD]33%[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Israel does not deserve to exist because it is a country built on stolen land and the deaths of innocents. You should go look up the atrocities committed from 1948 to the late 50's. That is why Israel exists, they murdered the Palestinians. [quote]- I don't think you're an anti-semite. I never said you were.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Earthen;36496636]Israel refuses to accept any proposals from the Palestinians because they mean the Israelis would have to treat them like human beings.[/QUOTE] Yes that is exactly why, you've hit the nail on the head and have caught them red-handed, good police-work there detective.
[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;36496914]I'm pretty sure Israeli armed forces aren't indiscriminately targeting civilian areas. If they were, Gaza City wouldn't even exist anymore.[/QUOTE] There are numerous fucking holes blasted into Gaza. The sheer wide uncaring nature of these attacks is proof enough that they're indiscriminate.
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