Former Israeli president sentenced to 7 years for rape
89 replies, posted
If I hear a single jewish/israeli extremist relate this back to the nazis I will personally... Ah shoot, someone will so I shouldn't even bother.
[editline]23rd March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=STeel;28747673]You reminded me of some of Norway's prisons.
[img_thumb]http://designgid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/10/Norwegian%20Prison%20Looks%20More%20Like%20a%20Holiday%20Resort/halden-prison-04.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1787/norwegianprisonthumb01ao9.jpg[/img_thumb]
Both looking more comfortable than my room.[/QUOTE]I could kill to live like that!
[editline]23rd March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=BCell;28759617]Comfortable room BUT NO FREEDOM
[editline]23rd March 2011[/editline]
Imagine living in a luxury house But you can never leave. Cant talk to your friends. being monitored 24-7. The food you eat is decided by the wardens and not you.
This luxury is a lie. You have no freedom in prison[/QUOTE]
I never leave home anyway so what the hay
[QUOTE=STeel;28747811]Well yeah that's the logic behind this type of prison - not to punish the criminal more than giving him those restrictions, but to separate him from society so he won't cause more damage.[/QUOTE]
What, NO!
The aim of imprisoning someone in facilities (like the Norway one) isn't about protection, rather rehabilitation.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28761201]What, NO!
The aim of imprisoning someone in facilities (like the Norway one) isn't about protection, rather rehabilitation.[/QUOTE]
it's both really. keeping them away from society until they are rehabilitated enough to not be a threat to it.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;28761214]it's both really. keeping them away from society until they are rehabilitated enough to not be a threat to it.[/QUOTE]
Protection is rather a side-effect of imprisoning a person. A person will only be imprisoned for the protection of the public in extreme cases.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28761222]Protection is rather a side-effect of imprisoning a person. A person will only be imprisoned for the protection of the public in extreme cases.[/QUOTE]
i disagree. why else do they not allow imprisoned people to leave for the duration of their sentence?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;28761241]i disagree. why else do they not allow imprisoned people to leave for the duration of their sentence?[/QUOTE]
But people who haven't been imprisoned for the protection of the public are allowed to leave on rare occasions.
There are other aims in criminal sanctions other than protection of the public and rehabilitation.
honestly, the stupid sarcastic replies only make you look like pillocks because not a single one of you even know remotely what you are actually talking about
as if the looks of a prison have anything to do with anything.
you look at a picture of a brand new norwegian minimum security complex and you fashion it into some idea that the world is soft on crime or something
[B]are you insane?[/B]
[QUOTE=thisispain;28761415]honestly, the stupid sarcastic replies only make you look like pillocks because not a single one of you even know remotely what you are actually talking about[/quote]
ouuuccch - and you apparently do now?
[QUOTE=thisispain;28761415]as if the looks of a prison have anything to do with anything.
you look at a picture of a brand new norwegian minimum security complex[/quote]
Of course the looks make a difference, and does tell a tale about the differences in criminal sanctions by country. For instance, compare the first image to a [url=http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041007/041007_thomp_cell_hmed_5a.grid-6x2.jpg]US minimum security cell[/url] and you can see that the idea behind it is very different.
[quote=thisispain;28761415] and you fashion it into some idea that the world is soft on crime or something
[B]are you insane?[/B][/QUOTE]
i have no idea if this is directed at me or not, because nothing of the like was said by me..?
obviously insane for thinking that norwegians decide to enforce criminal sanctions for different aims than the united states.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28761713]ouuuccch - and you apparently do now?
Of course the looks make a difference, and does tell a tale about the differences in criminal sanctions by country. For instance, compare the first image to a [url=http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041007/041007_thomp_cell_hmed_5a.grid-6x2.jpg]US minimum security cell[/url] and you can see that the idea behind it is very different.
i have no idea if this is directed at me or not, because nothing of the like was said by me..?
obviously insane for thinking that norwegians decide to enforce criminal sanctions for different aims than the united states.[/QUOTE]
no none of that post was directed at you
haha my baddddd
[QUOTE=STeel;28747673]You reminded me of some of Norway's prisons.
[img_thumb]http://designgid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/10/Norwegian%20Prison%20Looks%20More%20Like%20a%20Holiday%20Resort/halden-prison-04.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1787/norwegianprisonthumb01ao9.jpg[/img_thumb]
Both looking more comfortable than my room.[/QUOTE]
HOLY SHIT ! I have the same bed as that bed in the third picture ! Only wider.
Sure, the Norwegian prison rooms might be very comfortable, but remember, none of the prisoners really want to be there. They can't freely walk around. Imagine it as being stuck in a small apartment for a long time, while only being allowed outside now and then (nor any internet :v: ).
Plus, it seems to help. Most people get the idea that every person who commits a crime has to be tossed into a rotten dungeon cell with rats and cockroaches crawling around. They did something wrong, but they should still be treated like human beings.
EDIT:
While 7 years might not be enough, it's still a very long time.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk5Z-Xqe6ww&feature=player_embedded[/media]
actually, people in norway can leave prisons. when your in prison you go to work like usual.
norway fucking does it right, anyone who says america's system where the prison makes you insane is better is quite simply, wrong. PM me if you disagree.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;28762866][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk5Z-Xqe6ww&feature=player_embedded[/media]
actually, people in norway can leave prisons. when your in prison you go to work like usual.[/QUOTE]
very few convicted people will have the liberty of doing that.
for instance, a murder isn't going to have that liberty, nor would somone in prison for assault.
Doesn't surprise me, for a country that took a turn for the worst when it comes to leadership.
[QUOTE=MendozaMan;28762952]Doesn't surprise me, for a country that took a turn for the worst when it comes to leadership.[/QUOTE]
Because rape in a civilised country is a lot like war?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28762961]Because rape in a civilised country is a lot like war?[/QUOTE]
Building a wall around a partially-country and then randomly bombing them isn't what I would call a solution
No matter how much you deny it, it's what they did and are still doing :v:
[QUOTE=MendozaMan;28763047]Building a wall around a partially-country and then randomly bombing them isn't what I would call a solution
No matter how much you deny it, it's what they did and are still doing :v:[/QUOTE]
Yes, because Israel is randomly bombing... aren't they?
Oh they're not?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28763277]Yes, because Israel is randomly bombing... aren't they?
Oh they're not?[/QUOTE]
Or y'know, oppressing an entire country into an apartheid state. That's kinda worse then random bombing.
I hope the president don't get any special treatment.
[QUOTE=STeel;28747448]Our justice system in Israel is fucking horrible.
7 years for rape, and it was by a fucking president.
Some guy was driving drunk hit a girl that was standing on a pedestrian walk, and now she's disabled and had been in a hospital for a year and a half, and he got away with A fine of 1000 Shekels (approx 300USD) and 600 hours of public service, only because "his conditions are so tough on him, with his wife dying a few years before the incident, and has shown regret over running the girl over".[/QUOTE]
In Swedish rape cases the girl "wanted to get raped" or the rapist thought she wanted it and goes free, kill a wolf and it's 4 year in prison. Hurray for fucking justice.
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;28763703]I hope the president don't get any special treatment.[/QUOTE]
In a prison? Hahahahahaha.
Edit: Kinda makes me wonder how they'd treat tony blair in a prison. I would pay to watch.
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;28763703]In Swedish rape cases the girl "wanted to get raped" or the rapist thought she wanted it and goes free[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? In Sweden rape laws are so in the woman's favor that the women involved are not even named. And seriously, if that was the case, why is Julian Assange being extradited to Sweden for questioning when the sex was considered consentual by many?
[QUOTE=STeel;28747811]
Well yeah that's the logic behind this type of prison - not to punish the criminal more than giving him those restrictions, but to separate him from society so he won't cause more damage.[/QUOTE]
This is how prisons should work. All that prisons like the ones in the US do is teach the prisoner to be a heartless piece of shit and is more so tempted to do crime all over again. Prisons are meant to seprate criminials from society, which I think is punishing enough.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28763852]What are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
it's brage nyman he lost credibility when he revealed he hated muslims because they went on buses
[QUOTE=STeel;28747673]You reminded me of some of Norway's prisons.
[img_thumb]http://designgid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/10/Norwegian%20Prison%20Looks%20More%20Like%20a%20Holiday%20Resort/halden-prison-04.jpg[/img_thumb]
[img_thumb]http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1787/norwegianprisonthumb01ao9.jpg[/img_thumb]
Both looking more comfortable than my room.[/QUOTE]
That's a rehabilitation facility, not a prison.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28747900]Norway is obviously doing something right since they have the lowest violent crime rate in the world
So let's lay off and perhaps take some of their ideas[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/reviewpics/varg1.jpg[/img]
Getting back late to the party, but sleep is a necessity.
[QUOTE=Billiam;28754680]Well, the higher QOL is probably responsible for the lower violent crimes, but there's statistical evidence that proves rehabilitation produces significant drops in repeat offenders.[/quote]
Though, in the first place, to attribute it to one factor alone is ridiculous given how many exterior influences there are to be had. On that note, nobody has really ever launched a serious study into how rehabilitation influences crime rates though there is plenty of debate to be had. Regardless, all arguments that are presented usually revolve around states with and without capital punishment and their crime rates, or, also as common, countries with and without capital punishment (and, concurrently, the systems of incarceration they use) and their crime rates. It's very rare to see a person on either side admit, however, that correlation =/= causation. Why, exactly, this is so frequently omitted is certainly a matter for speculation (I always try to keep such a truth fresh in the minds of the people I'm surrounded with), but just as surprisingly nobody really bothers to examine the laws each state and country has in comparison to one another (which seems to be a logical step, IMO). They simply state the differences between the systems and crime rates, proclaim that this proves one system is better than another, and reiterate.
Personally, I've always felt that there should be a healthy balance maintained between rehabilitation and punishment within the prison system- not that we should rashly deal in absolutes and opt for just one or the other, with no middle ground to be had.
[quote=Billiam]However, apply this logic to your own argument and you find that Iran has a pretty meh violent crime rate, and China has a pretty average one which defeats the claim that capital punishment is responsible for low crime rates.[/quote]
Indeed, precisely why it was not intended to be a serious argument to begin with... as I explained to LocalFlavor. It was merely supposed to show how such logic as was used by Zeke129 is, asides from being grossly simplistic, deeply flawed.
[quote=Billiam]The lower crime rates are likely due to the fact that these countries are vastly conservative in all aspects anyway, which is something that'll never be implemented in any Western nation anytime soon, I hope.[/quote]
I don't believe this is just the reason for their lower crime rates, or that it's really even that significant of a factor. But, my views aside, if it was indeed their conservative approach which was responsible for their lower crime rates, it really doesn't make sense then that you, a person who is optimistic about lowering said crime rates, would be so quick to dismiss their methods entirely and absolutely.
[quote=Billiam]However, consider the fact that a majority of violent crime is not due to sociopathy or psychopathy, but due to poverty, so it makes plenty of sense that rehabilitation via skill training would lower repeat offending rates.[/quote]
First, before this goes any further, if it shall indeed proceed, from where did you obtain this data which explicitly says that the majority of violent crime is due just to poverty and not psychopathy, sociopathy, or just a general disregard for authority and a brattish attitude, etc.? Second, how many studies and experiments have actually been conducted to show that rehabilitation through skill training has lowered repeated offender rates (and, concordantly, how many actually supported this hypothesis?)?
[quote=Billiam]Then consider the fact that sociopathy and psychopathy, the other cause of violent crime, cannot be successfully corrected via discipline, but again through rehabilitation.[/quote]
This, of course, assumes that only sociopathy and psychopathy are the only other causes of violent crime and assumes the strict position that all actions have a logical, treatable source (in this case, the logical source being mental illness, the treatment supposedly being rehabilitation). Which, on that note, sociopathy and psychopathy are not curable to date, through medication or through rehabilitation. Indeed, the available "treatments" (if they could indeed be called that) are so controversial in their nature and unclear in effectiveness that it would be deceptive to claim to begin with that there is a definite fix to be had for them (many doctors are still divided over whether or not they are indeed distinctive disorders, and some still argue if they even exist at all as real mental disorders or merely as artificially-conjured products stemming from the overanalysis of the actions of people and their personalities).
Little more on sociopathy/psychopathy, for those who are interested:
[url]http://www.wisegeek.com/how-is-sociopathy-treated.htm[/url]
[quote=Billiam]Also, I would like some statistics proving that disciplinary action lowers crime rates,[/quote]
I don't know what has convinced you that disciplinary action or rehabilitation alone is what it takes to lower crime rates, or for that matter that widespread studies have been conducted on either matter, but even so I'll do my best to oblige and will gladly give you some statistics for Japan ([url]http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/nenkan/zuhyou/b2301000.xls[/url]), Malaysia (2006 crime rates [url]http://rmpckl.rmp.gov.my/Journal/BI/crimelevels.pdf[/url] vs. 2010 crime rates [url]http://news.malaysia.msn.com/regional/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4190940;[/url] 2010 saw a 14% decrease in crime alone!), and Taiwan ([url]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=15&ved=0CDcQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crime.hku.hk%2Fpapers%2Fmon-crimecontrol.doc&ei=H3uKTZa1HIS4twfpi4XpDQ&usg=AFQjCNEwtPtyNT8-VONaCpgRHWaEsliMZg&sig2=6Xh_N2GJfxGMIheYdpEygA;[/url] probably the best empirical research paper out of the whole lot, and most clearly demonstrates an example where thorough research has been conducted on capital punishment wherein it has been shown to decrease crime rates directly and, at the same time, give the people peace of mind)- all of which use capital punishment.
[quote=Billiam]I'm fairly certain I offered papers on rehabilitation's effect on repeat offenders in another thread.[/QUOTE]
I would like to see them here.
[QUOTE=Billiam;28754899]Also, I would like to mention that if anyone is set on committing violent crime, and it isn't through necessity and he/she was raised in a manner that enforces that disobeying the law is wrong, then they probably have some sort of mental disease, which means their decisions are out of their control.[/quote]
This is, of course, pure speculation which makes two absolute assumptions (the manner in which the person was raised, and the scenario wherein they are presented as being "set" on committing a violent crime), however. Not to insult, just to make that explicitly clear to all here so as to allow for a more clear understanding.
[quote=Billiam]The only situation where I could imagine someone with a sound mind committing a violent crime is if someone is really angry. And even then, psychologist recommend, you guessed it, rehabilitation.[/quote]
Actually, psychologists only ever recommend mental treatment (or, as you call it, rehabilitation) of any kind in a court case wherein they (and perhaps a few of their peers) concur that a person is in fact clinically insane. If a person is of sound mind and the commit murder, the psychologist will simply point that out: they have the mental capacity to know right from wrong. Insofar as what their opinion is on discipline vs. rehabilitation... are you by chance able to speak so confidently for them? I know I'm not, but I'm not talking about the opinions of others here; merely the role of others with regards to this specific scenario.
[quote=Billiam]Oh! And that's an argument against capital punishment too. If they're angry enough to kill, are they really thinking about the consequences?[/quote]
I know I would be. What of premeditated murderers? But this whole question is irrelevant, as arguing on these grounds is, once more, a matter of pure speculation and nothing more. It's inherently going to be different from person to person, with no factual basis to argue upon. Hence why I personally try to avoid it as much as possible when engaged in discourses such as this.
[QUOTE=Clark21;28748528]Rehabilitation. And there is a reason why crime rates are very low in Norway. At least they get treated better here than they do in the USA(guantanamo, Pfc Bradley manning, etc)
Also those pictures are of a minimum security prison.[/QUOTE]
Manning's lucky he hasn't been charged with treason.
[QUOTE=Bllasae;28773446]Manning's lucky he hasn't been charged with treason.[/QUOTE]
Especially considering that he violated the confidentiality laws of the United States military by releasing classified documents as a member of the army.
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