[QUOTE=Reimu;41566377]Maybe the LGBTQA movement isn't just about conforming to society? Maybe it's about deconstructing established ideas of what "normativity" should be in society?
Literally, the whole entire leftist portion of the movement is about deconstructing hetero normative beliefs. Are they making themselves "look like idiots" by being "flamboyant" and breaking from social concepts of who they should be?
Not to mention, I think it's interesting you and qwerty are upset with seeing half-naked men down the streets. Would you be upset about these protests, too?
[img]http://clarissasblogdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/131.jpg[/img]
They're feminists protesting the objectification of Ukrainian women in Eastern European society.[/QUOTE]
Boobies
[QUOTE=Reimu;41566377]Not to mention, I think it's interesting you and qwerty are upset with seeing half-naked men down the streets.[/QUOTE]
I never said that. I don't care. I care about them making gays look bad.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;41566449]You're right, sadly. But since you probably mean Russians in this thread, none of us started calling names.[/QUOTE]
russian federation specifically.
Oh boy it's just a matter of time until "that" squad comes in here.
I only want to say that places have a very different mentality. Just like it's mindblowingly insane to us how Middle East is that messed up, people in Middle East are okay with the way they are and it's just as much mindblowingly insane to them how we are "messed up".
And no, I'm not a homophobe, people* dislike parades since they're made more to provoke other people and say "fuck you" in their faces than they are made for promoting gay people's rights, and that's why people usually dislike them.
I personally dislike them since they always cause chaos and wreckage in the town. I don't care if people are gay, but I do care when people destroy stuff. Just stop provoking people and giving them motivation to do that.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41566335]Because the entire point of fighting for gay rights is that we want these differences to be erased ??
Gay Pride feels like the message is "we're fine being weird and we're clearly not like you watch as we give a fuck" which in my opinion really degrades the entire fight for gay rights because it just encites people to consider homosexuals as "not normal", drifting away from the equality that we are supposed to strive for.[/QUOTE]
"Erasing differences" isn't the end goal of the gay rights movement. It's one philosophy behind LGBTQA activism, but the reality is that most leftist activists strive for deconstructing the idea that "we are all the same." LGBTQA's want to deconstruct hetero normativity; they don't want to fuse hetero normativity and LGBTQA rights into one. Many LGBTQA individuals believe that they are unique and different from the social conception of heterosexuality, but, at the same time, they should be respected regardless of their differences.
By that definition of gay pride "disregarding the entire fight for gay rights," then all sorts of "pride" parades should be disregarded. Puerto Rican pride parades stray too strongly from other parades - are they inherently demanding that they are "not normal?" The Irish and Jewish Pride Parades are certainly different and unique from other parades - are they asking to be treated unfairly? How about feminist parades?
Parades are [b]inherently[/b] based on the idea that their participants are unique individuals. It should be understood by now that LGBTQA individuals are NOT the same as "normal" heterosexuals. We cannot simply pretend that heterosexuals and asexuals are identical - they live radically different lives.
That doesn't make either side any more inhumane. They both deserve proper treatment and respect.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;41566465]Oh boy it's just a matter of time until "that" squad comes in here.[/QUOTE]
too bad "that" squad doesn't exist???????
[QUOTE=Reimu;41566467]LGBTQA[/QUOTE]
I can't ignore it any more. What the fuck does the QA stand for?
[QUOTE=Scot;41566486]I can't ignore it any more. What the fuck does the QA stand for?[/QUOTE]
Q = Queer
A = Asexual
[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;41566473]too bad "that" squad doesn't exist???????[/QUOTE]
Alright, that kinda oversensitive* group of people who circlejerk.
Is that better?
-snip-
QAck thought russia would be better than this
[QUOTE=Reimu;41566506]Q = Queer
A = Asexual[/QUOTE]
I googled it.
[QUOTE]What does LGBTQA stand for?
LGBTQA stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer/Questioning, and Ally.[/QUOTE]
Boom get wrekt.
But the more you entice the idea that LGBT people are different, the more you push people towards trying to separate both instead of having them on equal grounds.
This is how discrimination works. Admit that people are different, and give them specific treatments to keep them separated to avoid conflict.
Acceptance starts with erasing stereotypes and educating people to know better. It's not going to happen with flamboyant parades, it's going to happen with laws and education, which takes time and understanding.
And the main difference between Country/Ethnicity related parade and the Gay Pride is that the former celebrates a culture, while the other celebrates a trait that should have no incidence on your social life whatsoever.
There is a noticeable difference between celebrating your culture and origins and celebrating the fact you happen to sleep with people of the same sex. The latter shouldn't have any impact on society whatsoever.
Once again with the french law on gay marriage : when the law started to be worked on and people protested against it, the LGBT reaction was not to dress in the sassiest costumes imaginable and parade on rainbow painted cars, it was a regular protest with regular people dressed in everyday clothing.
[t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Manif_pro_mariage_LGBT_27012013_20.jpg[/t]
It was a normal protest. And it worked better than any parade could have ever worked.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;41566507]Alright, that group of people who circlejerk.
Is that better?[/QUOTE]
because pointing out FP's obvious homophobia that runs rampant in this section is considered a circlejerk...
[QUOTE=SouthParkMGT;41565999]Personally I don't give a shit about gays as long as they won't try to penetrate my ass.
But this stupid Russian homophobia is embarrassing. You have no idea how many people were literally crying because of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3's gay relationships.[/QUOTE]
it's ok most people probably wouldn't want to touch you either way
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;41566507]Alright, that group of people who circlejerk.
Is that better?[/QUOTE]
alright apparently thinking bigots are terrible people makes me part of some squad
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Scot;41566486]I can't ignore it any more. What the fuck does the QA stand for?[/QUOTE]
question and answer, obviously
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41566428]The gay pride's only noticeable consequence is that homophobes have an even shittier opinion of gay people because all they see is people living up to the demeaning stereotype instead of fighting it.[/quote]
So? Homophobes are always going to have a shitty opinion of gay people, because they have a social and cultural conviction that homosexuals are inherently perverse people.
It's like blaming anti-Semitism on Jewish parades and Jewish literature. There are ALWAYS going to be people who are anti-Semetic. That doesn't mean a movement should cater to its haters. A movement inherently fails when it does.
[quote]And "deconstructing normativity" is a gradual thing that won't work if you just decide to wear the most ridiculous and out of place outfit possible and hope people will go "yeah I can dig that" instead of "what the fuck are you doing".[/quote]
I never said that gay pride parades end normativity.
They help question normativity. Why is there something wrong with being flamboyant? These people are just trying to express themselves and have fun. Is there anything wrong with that? Why should they oppress themselves?
For fuck's sake, Mardi Gras is equally as crazy in New Orleans. But no one claims that Mardi Gras is giving New Orleans a bad name.
[quote]Trying to appear as abnormal as possible to everyone is just going to make you look abnormal to everyone. They are not going to think any better of you and that ruins the entire point.[/QUOTE]
If this were true, then the parades would have died out 30 years ago. But, in fact, they're stronger than ever - and regularly a hotspot for allies and gay members in their local community.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;41566406]Oh hahaha, so you utterly hate furries and bronies but apparently i'm the bigot[/QUOTE]
there's a hell of a distance between disliking someone for watching MLP and being homosexual
No, seriously, every once in a while when an obvious furry/brony posts something about them being different and proud, they're made fun of and banned. But somehow the LGBT topic is different.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41566574]do you coat yourself in fibreglass so you don't have to see your naked body?[/QUOTE]
No, I don't. Do you?
[QUOTE=qwerty000;41566277]this
I don't want to see naked men on the fucking streets[/QUOTE]
do you coat yourself in fibreglass so you don't have to see your naked body?
missing the point 101 with qwerty000
[QUOTE=qwerty000;41566573]No, seriously, every once in a while when an obvious furry/brony posts something about them being different and proud, they're made fun of and banned. But somehow the LGBT topic is different.[/QUOTE]
pretty sure that being a brony/furry is a completely different thing to being gay.
[editline].[/editline]
I've never seen, in 4 years of being here, a gay person being as obnoxious that like a lot of furry/brony posters that are on the forums.
Putin really sucks dick at what he's doing.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41566564]there's a hell of a distance between disliking someone for watching MLP and being homosexual[/QUOTE]
Yes, however there are people who watch MLP and "bronies".
[QUOTE=Reimu;41566552]So? Homophobes are always going to have a shitty opinion of gay people, because they have a social and cultural conviction that homosexuals are inherently perverse people.
It's like blaming anti-Semitism on Jewish parades and Jewish literature. There are ALWAYS going to be people who are anti-Semetic. That doesn't mean a movement should cater to its haters. A movement inherently fails when it does.[/quote]
So what, we might as well not try and give them reason ? I have seen enough people starting out as homophobes because (and I quote them) of all the "faggots parading with feathers in their asses", including some of my own family, who changed their mind altogether when they found that, what do you know, not every gay guy turns out to be a flamboyant dude putting feathers up their butts. The gay pride made their opinion worse before gay normal people showing up and acting sensibly made them think otherwise.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;41566606]Yes, however there are people who watch The Nazi Party and "SS Officers".[/QUOTE]
umm ok i didn't say there weren't?
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41566610]So what, we might as well not try and give them reason ? I have seen enough people starting out as homophobes because (and I quote them) of all the "faggots parading with feathers in their asses", including some of my own family, who changed their mind altogether when they found that, what do you know, not every gay guy turns out to be a flamboyant dude putting feathers up their butts. The gay pride made their opinion worse before gay normal people showing up and acting sensibly made them think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
the problem with a lot of homophobic people is how ignorant they can be
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41566525]But the more you entice the idea that LGBT people are different, the more you push people towards trying to separate both instead of having them on equal grounds.
This is how discrimination works. Admit that people are different, and give them specific treatments to keep them separated to avoid conflict.
Acceptance starts with erasing stereotypes and educating people to know better. It's not going to happen with flamboyant parades, it's going to happen with laws and education, which takes time and understanding.
And the main difference between Country/Ethnicity related parade and the Gay Pride is that the former celebrates a culture, while the other celebrates a trait that should have no incidence on your social life whatsoever.
There is a noticeable difference between celebrating your culture and origins and celebrating the fact you happen to sleep with people of the same sex. The latter shouldn't have any impact on society whatsoever.
Once again with the french law on gay marriage : when the law started to be worked on and people protested against it, the LGBT reaction was not to dress in the sassiest costumes imaginable and parade on rainbow painted cars, it was a regular protest with regular people dressed in everyday clothing.
[t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Manif_pro_mariage_LGBT_27012013_20.jpg[/t]
It was a normal protest. And it worked better than any parade could have ever worked.[/QUOTE]
Discrimination is not based on the idea that people are different. It is based on the idea that one group is [b]superior[/b] to another, and deserves special treatment based on such. Otherwise, Americans would not give a fuck about their ethnicity. But, in reality, most Americans feel a strong connection to their original background and roots - Jews care about their Jewish heritage; Italians care about their Italian culture; Eastern Europeans care about their religion and culture (I can vouch for this); etc. Discrimination is not about simply separating people. It's about separating people, and favoring one over the other. You can still acknowledge your differences, and treat each other with respect.
You're acting as if parades are the ONLY measure that the LGBTQA take. Of course they're mobilized beyond parades. That doesn't mean parades should be stripped away because they're not "normal."
Why should your culture/ethnicity matter, and your sexuality not matter? Sexuality has a much stronger bearing on your life than your ethnicity. For many Americans, ethnicity is nothing more than a bunch of genes. Sexuality is something that you live with every day, until you die. A sexual person has every right to celebrate their sexuality, especially when society is telling them they should not.
The pride parade is a big "FUCK YOU" to the idea that LGBTQA should be quiet about their sexuality; that they should silently enter normativity. In reality, the movement is meant as a gateway to other oppressed groups - you can still enter society, without playing by their rules. We know this is true - pride parades have been going strong for years, the United States and the UK are more and more legally accepting LGBTQA communities, and LGBTQA communities are constantly growing.
[QUOTE=Scot;41566521]I googled it.
Boom get wrekt.[/QUOTE]
It depends on the source.
[url]http://ok2bme.ca/meaning[/url]
[quote]“L”esbian
“G”ay
“B”isexual
“T”ransgender
“T”ranssexual
”T”wo-spirited
“Q”ueer
“Q”uestioning
“I”ntersex
“A”sexual
“A”lly[/quote]
Many people are moving to remove "Ally" and turn it into "Asexual," because, realistically, I don't face the same sort of oppression that an L, G, B, T, or Q person does :v:.
[QUOTE=SouthParkMGT;41565999]Personally I don't give a shit about gays as long as they won't try to penetrate my ass.
But this stupid Russian homophobia is embarrassing. You have no idea how many people were literally crying because of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3's gay relationships.[/QUOTE]
Another quality post by SouthParkMGT.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41566612] the problem with a lot of homophobic people is how ignorant they can be[/QUOTE]
And the solution to ignorance is education. Education comes with being rational, humble and understanding.
When I talked to some people I know who were really racist in hope that I could change their mind, I didn't just go "fuck you and fuck your bigotry huehuehue", I asked them why they thought such things and calmly explained why their point of view was wrong or had clumsy bases. It didn't work all the time, but insulting them right off or just going "Whatever idgaf" would not have brought more to the table.
When it comes to country/culture wide changes I see that as lawmaking/education vs parades/ignoring. You can't just pretend you don't care and parade to show the homophobes how much you don't care, you have to do something useful.
I just think that the gay pride is slowing down that process because indecisive people are torn between homosexuals legally getting more and more rights to finally be on the same level as everyone else, and these same homosexuals parading half naked on the street like they don't belong.
-dumb-
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41566612]
the problem with a lot of homophobic people is how ignorant they can be[/QUOTE]
Ignorant of what? No don't be shy, educate me.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;41566610]So what, we might as well not try and give them reason ? I have seen enough people starting out as homophobes because (and I quote them) of all the "faggots parading with feathers in their asses", including some of my own family, who changed their mind altogether when they found that, what do you know, not every gay guy turns out to be a flamboyant dude putting feathers up their butts. The gay pride made their opinion worse before gay normal people showing up and acting sensibly made them think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
You're acting as if homophobes are specifically born from the gay pride parade.
Those homophobic comments are based in ideas that pride parades should a.) not be proud of their differences, and b.) should still uphold oppressive gender roles. The pride parade is meant to question normativity; it's meant to manipulate and destroy "social norms" in the process.
In all honesty, I don't think the LGBTQA community could give a shit about who it turns away. If someone is willing to put social norms above LGBTQA issues, then they have a long way to go before they understand anything about the sociological make-up of oppression.
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