• Majority of people living in former Soviet states think that collapse of Soviet Union brought more h
    61 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Gatsby;43284159]Source please.[/QUOTE] Personal experience. Not once in my entire life have I heard a person younger than 40 say that the Soviet Union was great
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;43284586](Yawmen gtfo, we both know what communism means in this context, don't come over with all those fucking definitions)[/QUOTE] yawmwen's been perma'd now you've just got me, soccerskyman, and combineguy just a public fyi
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;43284588]Personal experience. Not once in my entire life have I heard a person younger than 40 say that the Soviet Union was great[/QUOTE] There is no reason for them to, they haven't lived through that time period. Not to mention Ukraine is probably the most polarized when it comes to the SU. Age has nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];43284691']yawmwen's been perma'd now you've just got me, soccerskyman, and combineguy just a public fyi[/QUOTE] Oh :( So, I'll have to edit it then
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43283334] Say in North Korea collapsed it'll be pretty obvious things would get worse.[/QUOTE] I don't know. It's more of an East Germany situation isn't it? They would get plenty of aid.
Well Turkmenistan certainly seems okay with it.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];43284691']yawmwen's been perma'd now you've just got me, soccerskyman, and combineguy just a public fyi[/QUOTE] No more yawmwen? I might have disagreed hugely with him on tons of subjects, but he was one of my favorite posters on here, both for his political posts and his more gaming related ones, aside from yourself of course.
clearly the lesson here is to not found a communist state when you have nowhere near the resources nor the organizational power to keep your citizens happy. It also helps if it's not run by near-fascist dictators.
[QUOTE=daschnek;43286811]No more yawmwen? I might have disagreed hugely with him on tons of subjects, but he was one of my favorite posters on here, both for his political posts and his more gaming related ones, aside from yourself of course.[/QUOTE] I thought he was the political equivalent of a flat earther, but I thought he was a decent poster otherwise.
My gramps are always moaning about how it was soooooo much better since "everyone had food and jobs", ignoring the fact that you had to wait in line for half a day for food and the jobs were holding hats and canning food.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43284071]People tried to leave all the time before as well. The only reason I live in Britain right now is because my (deceased) grandfather was able to bend/twist the soviet system enough that he could organize for his family to leave Poland and move here just at the end of the 70s. After that, the rest of the extended family quickly left, although they are still petitioning the Russian government to get back some of the land they used to have in the Russian Empire/interwar Poland.[/QUOTE] Are you trying to tell me that you derived from Poland this means I cant hate you now
Communism is fantastic for smaller communities. For a massive state like Russia? No way in hell. It's just too big.
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;43285955]Well Turkmenistan certainly seems okay with it.[/QUOTE] Turkmenistan is now a dictatorship with an arguably worse disregard towards human rights and freedom of speech than the old Soviet regime. The brainwashing and personality cult there was on North Korea levels when Niyazov was in charge. But the actual living situation in Turkmenistan for the average person isn't really that bad. It's a bread and circuses kind of situation. Most people have access to their basic amenities, they just lack freedom.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;43286853]I thought he was the political equivalent of a flat earther, but I thought he was a decent poster otherwise.[/QUOTE] Best description of him I've heard. My girlfriend's parents (Hungarian) get nostalgic for aspects of the Soviet Union, mostly there being work for everyone, but otherwise absolutely don't regret it going down.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;43284586]Sorry. That's not true. GDP is how much the final production of a country is worth into a determined period of time. GDP per capita is that amount divided by the total population. It doesn't show the standard of living. It shows how much wealth there is for each habitant. If the GDP p/capita is 16.000, it doesn't mean that each one has a salary of 16.000. [/quote] correct [quote] And what the fuck people? Seriously? Capitalism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feudalism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Communism (Socialist anarchist revolutionaries of facepunch gtfo, we both know what communism means in this context, don't come over with all those fucking definitions) You just can't be endorsing communism because capitalism is "bad". Assholes say that in capitalism you get spray peppered in the eye and arrested during protests, at least they get to retain their lives, unlike what happened in the old soviet states. [/QUOTE] Capitalism is worse than "spray peppered in the eye and arrested during protests" you are presenting a straw man arguement. To cherry pick a few (as others have against communism): Iranian coup 1953 - West tried to put a dictator into power to stop oil being nationalised (and to possibly stop iran from being able to vote. Lovely oil) US being bed fellows in saudi arabia because of oil has allowed the region to become a hot bed for human rights abuse under rule of a monarch. The west invade countries to bring democracy yet support dictators with oil. Money comes before principles, morality and humanity. Banana republics - terrible working conditions, bad for the nations economy, incredibly wasteful (overproduction often leaves tons of unused bananas. But its ok because "capitalism is more efficient than socialism/communism") Connected to above, Assassinations of leaders in south america both to destabilise the countries and stop the countries from nationalising their assets. Slave labour didn't only happen in the ussr. It is still being used today, people being paid just enough to eat, then they are working for food the same as slaves are. Wage gap in the US, a worker in macdonalds is being paid minimum wage while their ceo gets millions. The worker is working everyday, long shifts, abusive customers, not great conditions. If they could all get better jobs then why do they still work there? The recession. This is a direct result of capitalism. On a slightly smaller scale, here in the uk interns are being used as cheap labour, companies offer the lowest wage they possibly can, when people deserve or ask for a promotion they can easily be replaced. Capitalism is just as failed as communism. [editline]24th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Asmaedus;43287377]Communism is fantastic for smaller communities. For a massive state like Russia? No way in hell. It's just too big.[/QUOTE] A small country with communism, if it had any kind of resources, would get shat on. Corperations and western governments would instigate coups and install puppet leaders. This has happened before several times in south america. I think it could work on a larger scale if it was less centralised. One authority distant and disconnected from the people isn't going recognise the needs of the people.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43292879] Capitalism is just as failed as communism. [/QUOTE] Capitalism has no morality, its working perfectly well.
[QUOTE=WhyNott;43287376]Are you trying to tell me that you derived from Poland this means I cant hate you now[/QUOTE] Yes. I don't see why being from the same nation should stop people from hating each other though. [editline]24th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43292879]Capitalism is just as failed as communism.[/QUOTE] [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7gtesHdfI1qd65vgo1_500.jpg[/img]
so essentially odl pensioners who are too afraid of politics to actually do anything said the U.S.S.R. was a good thing.... this is why eastern Europe cannot make any progress dragging itself out of corruption when you have a significant portion of the vote that is apathetic and votes for whoever promises them the most benefits
So they decided to ignore the former Soviet states that joined the EU then? I'm pretty sure the Czech, Polish, East-Germans, Estonians, and even likely the former Yugoslavians, despite the war, would say they're better off now than before. Hell, the Czech republic has become a very fair and liberal democracy, it's probably doing the best out of former Soviet states (sorry Poland).
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43293994][img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7gtesHdfI1qd65vgo1_500.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] I guess this points out how bad we are at making functioning political ideologies. When we look at it, capitalism is the worst way to rule the country and the economy, but is the only ideology that has proven to provide economic stability. It reminds me of a quote made by Winston Churchill: "[...]democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Communists, on the other hand, believe there is a better way to run a country, but this involves uncertain political experiments that haven't been fully tested yet. I personally feel a bit jealous of this naive way of thinking, because they believe things can be better without the need for some kind of illusion like "the American dream".
[QUOTE]Capitalism is just as failed as communism. [/QUOTE] But has prevailed. And no, it's not as failed as communism as it has allowed more and more people to live better. Today's world is richer than yesterdays, and more people have more food and more wealth and so on. It's true, maybe in the US wealth distribution is fucked up, but that doesn't mean the lowest classes don't have anything and while it may happen in the US, in other places of the world wealth distribution is better. Poland is by all means better off with capitalism than with communism. Same with all other countries.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;43295170]But has prevailed. And no, it's not as failed as communism as it has allowed more and more people to live better. Today's world is richer than yesterdays, and more people have more food and more wealth and so on. It's true, maybe in the US wealth distribution is fucked up, but that doesn't mean the lowest classes don't have anything and while it may happen in the US, in other places of the world wealth distribution is better. Poland is by all means better off with capitalism than with communism. Same with all other countries.[/QUOTE] Richer means nothing when the currency has nothing to back it up. Richer means nothing when it is at the expense of the environment and human needs. The people with the money have more control and are more important than those without money. They bribe and lobby to make laws, money buys influence normal people cannot get. The normal person might be smarter, stronger, quicker, more atheletic, better in everyway than the richman apart from birth. The normal person is born into a poor family, the rich man is born to rich parents who got lucky with the stock markets. (stockmarket, gambling essentially, is that meritocracy, does the "better", harder working, smarter person succeed more?) Capitalism is supposed to be a meritocracy yet you need large sums of money to get educated. It just a thinly veiled caste. It just removes the rich's suffering and gives it to the less privilaged, be they poor in that country or elsewhere. You can afford cheap clothes because some guy in india is getting the dirty end of the stick. The corperation found cheap labour over there where nobody gives a fuck about human rights. You can afford to eat a burger because there are vast swathes of ecosystem being destroyed for herds of cattle, the governments are paid money by corperations to allow this. You can afford your chocolate because some african dude is being paid in a day what you make in an hour. Pay the guy as little as possible, he's now living the capitalist dream. Bit of a messy post but you get the idea. Merry christmas.
[QUOTE=DrasarSalman;43294820]I guess this points out how bad we are at making functioning political ideologies. When we look at it, capitalism is the worst way to rule the country and the economy, but is the only ideology that has proven to provide economic stability. It reminds me of a quote made by Winston Churchill: "[...]democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Communists, on the other hand, believe there is a better way to run a country, but this involves uncertain political experiments that haven't been fully tested yet. I personally feel a bit jealous of this naive way of thinking, because they believe things can be better without the need for some kind of illusion like "the American dream".[/QUOTE] The way I see it, out of all of the economic systems we have tried, capitalism is the best. Capitalism is /not/ a political ideology, it is /not/ a system of government, and it is certainly not allied or opposed to race, nation, religion, or most other things. It is a way of allocating resources and nothing more. The Occident, the Orient, the peoples of the New World, of Sub-Saharan Africa and Oceania have all come up with indigenous forms of it from time to time over the past several thousand years.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;43295317]the rich man is born to rich parents who got lucky with the stock markets. (stockmarket, gambling essentially, is that meritocracy, does the "better", harder working, smarter person succeed more?)[/QUOTE] The stock market is gambling, where smarter and harder-working people have no advantage? Do you know anything at all about investing? The assertion that capitalism only works because of rampant exploitation isn't even true from an economic standpoint. If capitalism can't provide a decent standard of living without exploitable labor, then communism sure as hell isn't going to either. You're dealing with the same labor availability and production, the only difference is who's managing division of labor. Historically isolationist countries like Japan have functioned fine with a capitalist economy for centuries.
[QUOTE]You can afford cheap clothes because some guy in india is getting the dirty end of the stick. The corperation found cheap labour over there where nobody gives a fuck about human rights. [/QUOTE] They are manufactured in Argentina, and cheap my fucking ass. They are very expensive and I can only afford to buy clothes only once per year during winter. [QUOTE]You can afford to eat a burger because there are vast swathes of ecosystem being destroyed for herds of cattle, the governments are paid money by corperations to allow this. [/QUOTE] No ecosystem has been destroyed in the argentine pampa. [QUOTE]You can afford your chocolate because some african dude is being paid in a day what you make in an hour. Pay the guy as little as possible, he's now living the capitalist dream. [/QUOTE] Nah, it is imported from Brasil and/or made in the northern region of the country. Besides, I wonder how much 19th century workers in Uk gained compared with today. As I said before, salary tends to raise with time as quality of life improves. [QUOTE]The normal person is born into a poor family, the rich man is born to rich parents who got lucky with the stock markets. (stockmarket, gambling essentially, is that meritocracy, does the "better", harder working, smarter person succeed more?) [/QUOTE] Nah nah don't come over with the "rich people come from rich people, the rest stays the same" because we both know that's pure bullshit. And the other way around is not pure bullshit. Normal people have become rich because they were smart and knew how to handle themselves. Examples, way enough. [QUOTE]Capitalism is supposed to be a meritocracy yet you need large sums of money to get educated. It just a thinly veiled caste. It just removes the rich's suffering and gives it to the less privilaged, be they poor in that country or elsewhere. [/QUOTE] *Charity *Public education Another dichotomy....capitalism = only private education communism = only public education.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43283584]Dunno what bullshit your ex-girlfriends dad got into your head, but that's stupid. During communism EVERYTHING was rationed. To get food you had to wait into a line for HOURS with a ration card and there was always the possibility the store would've been empty when your turn came up, electricity was only for a few hours during the day, same with heating and other basic necessities, barely anyone had a car and public transport was filled to the brim all the time. A lot of cities were decaying and polluted to fuck because old buildings were ignored and a lot of factories were built. Housing was free yeah, but you think these commieblocks are that great? Hell no, most of them didn't even have proper plumbing and heating installed into them. Those were upgraded only now,after the revolution. Now you can see cars everywhere, everyone has at least a TV and some sort of PC in the house, don't you worry about the food because now during the holidays you hear on the news people getting carried to the hospital because they ate too much. I have no clue what the situation is in Bulgaria, but here life is clearly better than during Ceausescu. The people didn't shoot him and his wife because we lived so nicely. [URL]http://zoom.mediafax.ro/best-of/24-de-ani-de-la-revolutia-romana-11786667[/URL][/QUOTE] Great scott! that sounded like a Half-life 2 environment! Is it really true back in the past?
That's a shame because this mentality is what allows our dear Putin to manipulate the crowd.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;43294761]So they decided to ignore the former Soviet states that joined the EU then? I'm pretty sure the Czech, Polish, East-Germans, Estonians, and even likely the former Yugoslavians, despite the war, would say they're better off now than before...[/QUOTE] Croatia - Unemployment: Before - non existent Now - 22% and rising Already sold telecommunication infrastructure, oil companies and pharmaceutical companies, highways are up-next, forest and water are on hold, but it's just a matter of time... we have no way to pay of our dept, but foreign banks still give us loans... rich politicians get richer via corruption and privatization, middle class is almost gone... It's a capitalist dream...
[QUOTE=Asmaedus;43287377]Communism is fantastic for smaller communities. For a massive state like Russia? No way in hell. It's just too big.[/QUOTE] What do you mean by Communism? North Korea and the early USSR are both pretty awful.
[QUOTE=BCell;43296754]Great scott! that sounded like a Half-life 2 environment! Is it really true back in the past?[/QUOTE] In Romania, yes. The leader wanted to have Romania be a completely independent country, and if that meant sacrificing countless rights, he was all good and willing to do it.
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