Biden: "Transgender Discrimination Is 'The Civil Rights Issue Of Our Time"

[Deunan]

[QUOTE=JustExtreme;38272879]I think the prejudice against and the dehumanisation of drug users is on an equal if not worse level to transgender discrimination

Both need to be tackled, though[/QUOTE]

The problem is that drug use (or abuse in a lot of cases) is in a sense self inflicted. Your sexual orientation or other stuff generally is not. A person might try to often "fight" it but that often creates mental issues.

While drug use has multiple sources, including areas where the person needs the vent it's not comperable.

Obviously harsh criminilasation as opposed to better integration and getting the person of the drug is a completely different matter. But it's not your typical civil rights issue.

To be completely honest, while I can understand transgenderism I probably am not as tolerant as some people would expect of others. To me a person's gender is in a sense tied to their bodies. As long a transgender person is essentially in "transition" I have a very hard time accepting them as the gender to which they are transitioning. Once they undergo an operation and essentially finalise the transition in a sense I generally end up accepting the gender change fully.

[QUOTE=Dori;38273939]you officially become a woman when you identify as one[/QUOTE]

Actually not entirely. An official gender change in most legislatures requires a court order which is usually tied to a name change procedure, which usually can only happen once you have an official medical statement that you are in transition.

Mere identification with a chosen gender doesn't allow you to official become one.

[Turnips5]

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;38274031]How can it be "Objectively" wrong when gender is abstract. You're just stating your beliefs as fact.[/QUOTE]

how can I be "objectively" wrong when math is just abstract?

[WhatAmI]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38274119]i bet u thought u were the coolest guy on earth when you wrote this[/QUOTE]

thanks bro

[ROFLBURGER]

[QUOTE=Turnips5;38274125]how can I be "objectively" wrong when math is just abstract?[/QUOTE]

No, that's different. People have their own definitions to women.
Math is just "one final answer"

If Math was like identifying what makes a word, then 2+2=4 or 40 or 400 or 4000

[Judas]

You should all [i]really[/i] stop arguing this, it never ends well.

[Speedhax]

Transgender discrimination is a complicated issue. On one hand I fully support their right to switch genders. On the other I would never consider them a romantic partner. Maybe humanity will get better at gender transformation in the future where they can change the makeup to make someone an actual female, rather then just a woman.

[ROFLBURGER]

[QUOTE=Speedhax;38274629]-hmm-[/quote]

I might want to snip that, some transgendered people get [I]really[/I] upset when someone says that.

[ROFLBURGER]

[QUOTE=Atlascore;38274908]I hope you enjoy that insulting forum title you'll be getting from a raging transgender FP user in 3.. 2..[/QUOTE]

The guy who got me the title (before this one) said he was just trying to lighten the negativity. I don't think he was a raging transgendered.

[lordcrypto]

do i need to say this again

you can identify all you want as a woman, and i'm cool with that

you aren't a female

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

also note

barring any medical conditions, females are able to give birth.

mtf cannot give birth

[milkandcooki]

I think that a lot of transphobia comes from ignorance. People are so used to seeing male and female stereotypes that they are slow to accept the fact that some people identify themselves differently. They won't really be able to understand MtF/FtM that well unless it's explained to them.

Also, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't devolved into people deliberately using wrong pronouns or something like that.

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38274942]do i need to say this again

you can identify all you want as a woman, and i'm cool with that

you aren't a female

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

also note

barring any medical conditions, females are able to give birth.

mtf cannot give birth[/QUOTE]

[I]Technically[/I] speaking yeah, MtF transpeople are not "real" females. However, they identify themselves as female, so therefore they are female.

[Pierrewithahat]

Identifying as a woman doesn't make you biologically female, the two are separate attributes so to speak.

[Curls]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38274942]do i need to say this again

you can identify all you want as a woman, and i'm cool with that

you aren't a female

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

also note

barring any medical conditions, females are able to give birth.

mtf cannot give birth[/QUOTE]

exactly what I agree with as well

I also disagree with using sex change and plastic surgery when you look perfectly fine but... that's their choice to god damn make, god damn let them :v:

I especially disagree with lets say, an extremely good looking anyways star getting extreme surgery.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;38275028][I]Technically[/I] speaking yeah, MtF transpeople are not "real" females. However, they identify themselves as female, so therefore they are female.[/QUOTE]

That's not what he's saying at all

he's saying, as said in stone via birth and genetics, they are in truth male, but to be called female in identity.

[lordcrypto]

let me go dig this image up

female is a biological identification that what you were born as aka sex
woman is what you identify as aka gender
[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wQT4WgY5Uuk/TmLFtXVc-YI/AAAAAAAAAAs/sjnZyz1GnVk/s1600/gender-model-authentic.png[/img]

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=J!NX;38275121]exactly what I agree with as well

I also disagree with using sex change and plastic surgery when you look perfectly fine but... that's their choice to god damn make, god damn let them :v:

That's not what he's saying at all

he's saying, as said in stone via birth and genetics, they are in truth male, but to be called female.[/QUOTE]
they are in truth male
but they identify as a woman

don't use male/female for gender identity
don't use man/woman for sex

[Reshy]

Arguing over technicalities I see.

[lordcrypto]

time to get the turkey bacon/ pork bacon analogy out

are turkey bacon and pork bacon the same?

turkey/pork is the sex, bacon is the gender

they both are feminine, but only pork is female

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38274942]do i need to say this again

you can identify all you want as a woman, and i'm cool with that

you aren't a female

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

also note

barring any medical conditions, females are able to give birth.

mtf cannot give birth[/QUOTE]

'mtf cannot give birth' is probably the worst argument for this kind of thing

i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you but

thats pretty irrelevant

[Neo Kabuto]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38275368]'mtf cannot give birth' is probably the worst argument for this kind of thing

i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you but

thats pretty irrelevant[/QUOTE]

She would be a woman, but not a female, since a female is "the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs". That's what his point is.

[Winters]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275315]time to get the turkey bacon/ pork bacon analogy out

are turkey bacon and pork bacon the same?

turkey/pork is the sex, bacon is the gender

they both are feminine, but only pork is female[/QUOTE]

I understand you and all, and agree with you for that matter. But that made less sense then the diagram you posted.

[Dori]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275315]time to get the turkey bacon/ pork bacon analogy out

are turkey bacon and pork bacon the same?

turkey/pork is the sex, bacon is the gender

they both are feminine, but only pork is female[/QUOTE]

are you trying to make me hungry?

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;38275380]She would be a woman, but not a female, since a female is "the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs". That's what his point is.[/QUOTE]

but then if you flip that around, a woman that cannot give birth is therefore no longer female

you then have you explain that the woman who cannot give birth is a woman for other reasons

which goes into circular logic territory

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Winters;38275382]I understand you and all, and agree with you for that matter. But that made less sense then the diagram you posted.[/QUOTE]
okay

so theres two parts to bacon. the fact that its called bacon, and the meat it is made from

in this metaphor/analogy/w/e bacon is feminine

the meat then determines whether they are male or female

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38275399]but then if you flip that around, a woman that cannot give birth is therefore no longer female

you then have you explain that the woman who cannot give birth is a woman for other reasons

which goes into circular logic territory[/QUOTE]

did you miss the "barring medical reasons"???????

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275403]okay

so theres two parts to bacon. the fact that its called bacon, and the meat it is made from

in this metaphor/analogy/w/e bacon is feminine

the meat then determines whether they are male or female

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

did you miss the "barring medical reasons"???????[/QUOTE]

'barring medical reasons' therefore makes the statement redundant and irrelevant because you're implying that they're a woman for other reasons that you haven't explained

[Winters]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38275418]'barring medical reasons' therefore makes the statement redundant and irrelevant because you're implying that they're a woman for other reasons that you haven't explained[/QUOTE]

But he did explain it?

[Pierrewithahat]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38275399]but then if you flip that around, a woman that cannot give birth is therefore no longer female

you then have you explain that the woman who cannot give birth is a woman for other reasons

which goes into circular logic territory[/QUOTE]

No it's rather simple, if you are genetically female and have a full set of female genitals then you are a female.

If you identify as a woman and you have your wang turned inside out and put inside you and lop off your gonads then that's great you look like a chick and your body may more accurately reflect how you feel your body should, but you're still not genetically and anatomically female.

[lordcrypto]

okay

but if i don't break female down to the most basic format of plant sexes

then mtf will attempt to continue using it. either i have a few edge cases that don't fit with that definition, or the definition has no point

[Call Me Kiwi]

Science to the rescue:
[IMG]http://images.tutorvista.com/content/heredity-and-evolution/human-sex-chromosomes.jpeg[/IMG]
This way you don't have to deal with circular logic crap.

[Squeaken]

I like how a bunch of people come into a thread just so they can tell transsexuals they aren't real women.

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Squeaken;38275515]I like how a bunch of people come into a thread just so they can tell transsexuals they aren't real women.[/QUOTE]

hi!!!

aren't real females != aren't real women

please get informed

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=Call Me Kiwi;38275454]Science to the rescue:
[IMG]http://images.tutorvista.com/content/heredity-and-evolution/human-sex-chromosomes.jpeg[/IMG]
This way you don't have to deal with circular logic crap.[/QUOTE]

but judging sex by whether or not they have specific chromosomes [URL="http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome"]does not prove gender at all[/URL]

[Winters]

Further more, even if you people are so dead set on saying they're not scientifically the gender they choose to be. Who the fuck cares? They're people just like you and me you know. They're intiiled to be who ever the fuck they want. Why does it matter this much to you? Why cant they just be happy with who they are?