Biden: "Transgender Discrimination Is 'The Civil Rights Issue Of Our Time"

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=Winters;38275640]Further more, even if you people are so dead set on saying they're not scientifically the gender they choose to be. Who the fuck cares? They're people just like you and me you know. They're intiiled to be who ever the fuck they want. Why does it matter this much to you? Why cant they just be happy with who they are?[/QUOTE]

i'm intiiled to poke flaws in logic

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Bobie;38275622]but judging sex by whether or not they have specific chromosomes [URL="http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome"]does not prove gender at all[/URL][/QUOTE]
for .005% of the US population

i said that there is always edge cases when trying to separate gender from sex

and stop throwing gender and sex around like they are interchangeable

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275685]for .005% of the US population

i said that there is always edge cases when trying to separate gender from sex

and stop throwing gender and sex around like they are interchangeable[/QUOTE]

you're dodging my point. chromosome proves nothing, it could be 50% of the population and it would make no difference

[Ownederd]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275685]for .005% of the US population

i said that there is always edge cases when trying to separate gender from sex

and stop throwing gender and sex around like they are interchangeable[/QUOTE]

hi buddy u got a source???

[lordcrypto]

bottom line is you are physically born with a penis, or a vagina

(except for edge cases deal w/ it)

now your gender at birth doesn't have to match your sex at birth

you can change how you identify later in life

but you were always born with either a penis or a vagina.

[Bobie]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275727]bottom line is you are physically born with a penis, or a vagina

(except for edge cases deal w/ it)

now your gender at birth doesn't have to match your sex at birth

you can change how you identify later in life

but you were always born with either a penis or a vagina.[/QUOTE]

i'm not arguing against whether or not you are born with genitals

i'm arguing your points you've been making. that's great that you have that opinion but its irrelevant

[Neo Kabuto]

[QUOTE=Ownederd;38275722]hi buddy u got a source???[/QUOTE]

It's actually just under 0.004% of the US. The article gave 15,000 as a number for people with AIS. Divide that by the population, and multiply by 100%.

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275727]bottom line is you are physically born with a penis, or a vagina[/QUOTE]

I'd put it on if you have ovaries or testes instead.

[NeoDement]

good, good

I'm not in the US but still

[Ban Camp]

Threads on Trans people always ends up in drama or getting extremely close to it.

[Untouch]

[QUOTE=Ban Camp;38275763]Threads on Trans people always ends up in drama or getting extremely close to it.[/QUOTE]

Every social injustice thread ends up the same.

[FFStudios]

[QUOTE=Farrelm;38272466]really cool of biden to recognize us

at the very least i'd like acceptance among more lgbt peope. its suprising how many gay people hate transfolk[/QUOTE]

I can totally respect this, but we're talking about law here. Neither Barack Obama nor Joe Biden can really do anything to force gay people to accept LGBT people; people will have their own opinions no matter what. What we should be doing however, which is the same thing that people did to make people aware of civil rights during Reconstruction, is educating people. Educating them on who transgenders are, possible reasons why they've chosen that path to go down, etc.

[lordcrypto]

basically all my argument is that

yes you may be a woman/man

but you aren't a female/male

and it's good that biden recognizes that this is a bad thing(discrimination)

[Awesomecaek]

[QUOTE=FFStudios;38275789]I can totally respect this, but we're talking about law here. Neither Barack Obama nor Joe Biden can really do anything to force gay people to accept LGBT people; people will have their own opinions no matter what. What we should be doing however, which is the same thing that people did to make people aware of civil rights during Reconstruction, is educating people. Educating them on who transgenders are, possible reasons why they've chosen that path to go down, etc.[/QUOTE]

Which, as you can see, won't be an easy task, as even several Facepunchers, right here who should still should be above the par of general public when it comes to accepting novel concepts, can't get get past the point of

[h2]"SHE HAS A WIENER BUT IS A GIRL??? WTF?!"[/h2]

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

(It's obviously the wrong view)

[Pierrewithahat]

[QUOTE=Winters;38275640]Further more, even if you people are so dead set on saying they're not scientifically the gender they choose to be. Who the fuck cares? They're people just like you and me you know. They're intiiled to be who ever the fuck they want. Why does it matter this much to you? Why cant they just be happy with who they are?[/QUOTE]

No one gives a fuck, but when you're gonna start a debate you make sure your shit is right, you don't begin a debate then go "WHATEVER BRO, NO ONE GIVES A FUCK ANYWAY!" because that's not how a debate works.

[It's crispy]

I know a few female-to-male transgender people as internet friends, I didn't notice any of them were transgendered until it was talked about for some reason. The only thing is that the people in their early twenties all look like 14-year old boys

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38275852]Which, as you can see, won't be an easy task, as even several Facepunchers, right here who should still should be above the par of general public when it comes to accepting novel concepts, can't get get past the point of

[h2]"SHE HAS A WIENER BUT IS A GIRL??? WTF?!"[/h2]

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

(It's obviously the wrong view)[/QUOTE]
hey look

please look up female in your favorite recent dictionary

nowhere does it mention the gender identity of the person being named female/male

[muffle]

[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38275886]No one gives a fuck, but when you're gonna start a debate you make sure your shit is right, you don't begin a debate then go "WHATEVER BRO, NO ONE GIVES A FUCK ANYWAY!" because that's not how a debate works.[/QUOTE]
lmao these arguments never end seriously, even when people say "okay lets stop it" the other side keeps going

[lavacano]

why is it that every time transgender is brought up in SH the entire thread turns into a war zone

[Ibby]

[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38275429]No it's rather simple, if you are genetically female and have a full set of female genitals then you are a female.

If you identify as a woman and you have your wang turned inside out and put inside you and lop off your gonads then that's great you look like a chick and your body may more accurately reflect how you feel your body should, but you're still not genetically and anatomically female.[/QUOTE]

HRT makes your anatomy pretty damn female. There are more sexual characteristics than what's between your legs.

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Ibby;38275965]HRT makes your anatomy pretty damn female. There are more sexual characteristics than what's between your legs.[/QUOTE]
hrt makes you outwardly female

it doesn't however make you grow ovaries

[Dori]

[QUOTE=Ibby;38275965]HRT makes your anatomy pretty damn female. There are more sexual characteristics than what's between your legs.[/QUOTE]

those are secondary sexual characteristics

[Pierrewithahat]

[QUOTE=mopman999;38275919]lmao these arguments never end seriously, even when people say "okay lets stop it" the other side keeps going[/QUOTE]

Because as a debate goes on it devolves from "here are my points and this is why I feel this way and this is why this is the way it is," to "BUT GUYS, YOU'RE ALL LIKE, WRONG AND SHIT!"

The fact is, if you want to debate gender and sex, people will pummel the ever loving shit out of you if you are fundamentally wrong, which is the way every debate works and people don't like having a point that is actually correct i.e Woman and Female are two completely different things, dismissed by folk who feel entitled to be called female if they are fundamentally not female. Identify as a woman, no one cares, but if you're running around with meat and two veg then you're not female.

[editline]1st November 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=Ibby;38275965]HRT makes your anatomy pretty damn female. There are more sexual characteristics than what's between your legs.[/QUOTE]

Well done, those are secondary sexual characteristics but the crux of the argument is this:

If you have a cock and balls, the chances are pretty damn good that you are genetically and anatomically male, regardless of whether or not you view yourself as a woman.

I don't get how this is so offensive or difficult to grasp, male and female, and man and woman are two entirely different concepts.

[Awesomecaek]

In short, my probably only direct transgender experience and what forms my stance on this:

I have a friend on the internet, who introduced herself as a girl. We addressed her that way, and everyone was happy. I suspected there's "SOMETHING" fishy about her, and you know the whole "all women on the internet are men" and I became rather close friends with her, so I did, at some point, squeeze her down a bit, and she explained she's in fact physically male, IRL acts as male, but would prefer to be female.

Well, in my book, she's a fucking lass, then! I never address her in any other way as female, I never questioned it again, and when anybody asks about her and doesn't have explicit reason to know the truth, I simply refer to her as female.

I mean, people, simple question to yourselves.

Is it really your business what the people have down there?

Yeah, in cases when things could realistically get intimate, it is probably good for everyone to play with all cards uncovered, but as long as it's just somebody somebody and you don't plan on utilizing their genitals anytime soon, isn't it a bit rude to even ask about them? Does knowing about them change anything?

It changes nothing. For you, the person who doesn't strip down can potentially be just as much as biological black box for you as my friend was for me over the internet. You don't need to know the specifics, they are useless to you.

Now comes the second part. The people emotionally suffer from being addressed the, for them "subjectively" wrong gender. So why not just have the basic common fucking courtesy and please them by calling them the way they feel to be? Why be an asshat and go "WAIT WAIT WAIT NO NO YOU YOU ARE ONLY THINKING YOU ARE X, YOU ARE Y". Yeah, that might be a legitimate thing to say when the person asked you to have children with them, on the spot. Then it might scrape and there might be practical problems. But in every other case, [B]why not just be nice?[/B]

[Ban Camp]

[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38275986]
I don't get how this is so offensive[/QUOTE]

They would like to be seen as their desired gender?

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Ban Camp;38276026]They would like to be seen as their desired gender?[/QUOTE]

gender != sex

jesus christ i've only said this 50 bajillion times

[Awesomecaek]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38275915]hey look

please look up female in your favorite recent dictionary

nowhere does it mention the gender identity of the person being named female/male[/QUOTE]

So you will stand on emotionally harming people because of strict semantics?

[lordcrypto]

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38276055]So you will stand on emotionally harming people because of strict semantics?[/QUOTE]
because anyone who fails to recognize the difference between a sexual identity and a gender identity

[Ban Camp]

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;38276036]gender != sex

jesus christ i've only said this 50 bajillion times[/QUOTE]

I know. The point still stands.

[Pierrewithahat]

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38276018]In short, my probably only direct transgender experience and what forms my stance on this:

I have a friend on the internet, who introduced herself as a girl. We addressed her that way, and everyone was happy. I suspected there's "SOMETHING" fishy about her, and you know the whole "all women on the internet are men" and I became rather close friends with her, so I did, at some point, squeeze her down a bit, and she explained she's in fact physically male, IRL acts as male, but would prefer to be female.

Well, in my book, she's a fucking lass, then! I never address her in any other way as female, I never questioned it again, and when anybody asks about her and doesn't have explicit reason to know the truth, I simply refer to her as female.

I mean, people, simple question to yourselves.

Is it really your business what the people have down there?

Yeah, in cases when things could realistically get intimate, it is probably good for everyone to play with all cards uncovered, but as long as it's just somebody somebody and you don't plan on utilizing their genitals anytime soon, isn't it a bit rude to even ask about them? Does knowing about them change anything?

It changes nothing. For you, the person who doesn't strip down can potentially be just as much as biological black box for you as my friend was for me over the internet. You don't need to know the specifics, they are useless to you.

Now comes the second part. The people emotionally suffer from being addressed the, for them "subjectively" wrong gender. So why not just have the basic common fucking courtesy and please them by calling them the way they feel to be? Why be an asshat and go "WAIT WAIT WAIT NO NO YOU YOU ARE ONLY THINKING YOU ARE X, YOU ARE Y". Yeah, that might be a legitimate thing to say when the person asked you to have children with them, on the spot. Then it might scrape and there might be practical problems. But in every other case, [B]why not just be nice?[/B][/QUOTE]

That's fantastic, if someone wants to be a girl then they can be a girl, but until such point in time they can mystically suck their testicles inside themselves, grow a uterus, fallopian tubes and convert their testes into ovaries and have their cock magically transform into previously aforementioned uterus as well as totally shift their bodies entire chemistry and biology, then they will always be male.

I'm not saying that transgenders be referred to as their original biological sex or anything, if a guy feels more comfortable viewing themselves as a girl then I have no qualms with that or addressing them as a girl/she/her etc. but the fact is they are not [b]female.[/b]

[lordcrypto]

look if you have to make a big point of you being mtf where it is irrelevant

then call yourself female when that is obviously not the case as anyone who has cracked a biology book would know