[QUOTE=catbarf;31831158]Still. Ever jump into a cold pool? Same deal, it's hardly punishment. If your kid can't deal with a bit of cold water, he needs to get over it.[/quote]
Do you not have reading comprehension? Being forced into a freezing cold shower isn't the same as you jumping into a non-heated pool. Clearly the kid couldn't tolerate it, otherwise he wouldn't have been screaming and crying.
Oh, but wait, you told him to "get over it"? That's just sick.
Fucking Valdor, you need to shut the fuck up.
I was beaten as a child by my dad, I had a rough childhood. The point I'm making is even though I received harsh punishments it does not blind me to the fact that this IS abuse. The treatment I received DOES NOT make me think, "oh that's nothing and totally not abuse."
If you're one of the people who do not think this is abuse go get a fucking psychological evaluation. Absolutely disgusting.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31831195]Do you not have reading comprehension? Being forced into a freezing cold shower isn't the same as you jumping into a non-heated pool. Clearly the kid couldn't tolerate it, otherwise he wouldn't have been screaming and crying.
Oh, but wait, you told him to "get over it"? That's just sick.[/QUOTE]
Whether or not a kid throws a fit at the punishment is not the grounds by which a punishment is deemed abusive or not. I've seen kids scream and bawl their eyes out at having videogames taken away, that doesn't make it abusive. If it's an unpleasant experience, well, yeah- that's what punishment is supposed to be. Cold water is not on the same level as physical abuse, regardless of what the kid's reaction is. It's not beating with a stick, it's not a bed of nails, it's not hot coals or tar. It's water. Not even boiling water, or waterboarding, or Chinese water torture, just cold water.
Now, I don't think the punishment in this case was justified. Kids do dumb things in school, that's just how they are, and the mother seriously overreacted. If the boy had done something truly serious, maybe it would be justified, but in this case it's not. But parents have few options available in disciplining children, and as someone who has to deal with unruly children on a daily basis, I can understand the frustration.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31831540]Whether or not a kid throws a fit at the punishment is not the grounds by which a punishment is deemed abusive or not. I've seen kids scream and bawl their eyes out at having videogames taken away, that doesn't make it abusive. If it's an unpleasant experience, well, yeah- that's what punishment is supposed to be. Cold water is not on the same level as physical abuse, regardless of what the kid's reaction is. It's not beating with a stick, it's not a bed of nails, it's not hot coals or tar. It's water. Not even boiling water, or waterboarding, or Chinese water torture, just cold water.
Now, I don't think the punishment in this case was justified. Kids do dumb things in school, that's just how they are, and the mother seriously overreacted. If the boy had done something truly serious, maybe it would be justified, but in this case it's not. But parents have few options available in disciplining children, and as someone who has to deal with unruly children on a daily basis, I can understand the frustration.[/QUOTE]
Or she could have just, you know, sat down and talked with the kid, and if that didn't work take some privileges away or give him a time-out. There's no reason to resort to things like ice-cold showers or swishing hot sauce in your mouth, or god forbid beatings.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31831605]Or she could have just, you know, sat down and talked with the kid, and if that didn't work take some privileges away or give him a time-out. [/QUOTE]
From the OP:
[quote]Prosecutors say Beagley went beyond what would be considered reasonable parental discipline. Her lawyer, William Ingaldson, said [b]she resorted to unconventional disciplinary methods because more traditional forms of punishment had not worked with the boy.[/b][/quote]
Not every kid cares about you taking away their videogames or making them sit in a corner- I teach at a computer camp in the summer, and there are a fair number of kids who just don't respond at all to having such privileges taken away. It only makes them more resistant, as they use it in their own little martyrdom routine.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beatings aren't abuse, but more 'creative' punishments like this shouldn't be immediately labeled abuse simply because they work and the kid hates them. Because corporal punishment is considered abuse, there's not much a frustrated parent can do if privilege-based disciplinary measures don't work.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31831868]Not every kid cares about you taking away their videogames or making them sit in a corner- I teach at a computer camp in the summer, and there are a fair number of kids who just don't respond at all to having such privileges taken away. It only makes them more resistant, as they use it in their own little martyrdom routine.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying beatings aren't abuse, but more 'creative' punishments like this shouldn't be immediately labeled abuse simply because they work and the kid hates them. Because corporal punishment is considered abuse, there's not much a frustrated parent can do if privilege-based disciplinary measures don't work.[/QUOTE]
And you think that this kind of irregular, and depending on the circumstances, cruel punishment isn't going to make the kid resentful? You really think he gets hot sauce and a cold shower and thinks "well you know maybe I did something wrong"?
behavioral problems have been solved before without "creative" punishments
unless you believe people in mental health departments at hospitals throw childeren into showers and rub hot-sauce into their mouths
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31831905]And you think that this kind of irregular, and depending on the circumstances, cruel punishment isn't going to make the kid resentful? You really think he gets hot sauce and a cold shower and thinks "well you know maybe I did something wrong"?[/QUOTE]
So, what, you think kids shouldn't be punished at all if they're going to resent it? If mild punishments don't work, move on to harsher ones. It doesn't matter if he thinks 'maybe I did something wrong' or 'I better not do it again or I'll get more of this shit', the outcome is the same.
[QUOTE=thisispain;31831935]behavioral problems have been solved before without "creative" punishments
unless you believe people in mental health departments at hospitals throw childeren into showers and rub hot-sauce into their mouths[/QUOTE]
Well, for one thing, corporal punishment used to be the norm. That's pretty much how behavior was instilled into children before modern abuse-sensitive society came about. As for mental health, that's a whole different kettle of kittens as far as teaching and positive/negative reinforcement. But I guess if you want to liken kids to mental health patients and then complain that I'm insensitive, go right ahead.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31835304]
Well, for one thing, corporal punishment used to be the norm.[/QUOTE]
Yes and so were a lot of other things. The difference is that the world is more civilized. We are not livingi n the 18th century.
So...
What the hell bad thing did he do?
He's just a hyper kid, so was I.
This mom is a bitch.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31835304]So, what, you think kids shouldn't be punished at all if they're going to resent it? If mild punishments don't work, move on to harsher ones. It doesn't matter if he thinks 'maybe I did something wrong' or 'I better not do it again or I'll get more of this shit', the outcome is the same.
And a bunch of other bullshit.[/QUOTE]
The point of punishment is to stop rebellious thoughts at the root. If you're just beating a child senseless and think that will stop him doing whatever he's been doing without telling him why, you're an idiot.
The point is to tell the child that what he's done is wrong so he doesn't do it again. You can't just beat him and not care whether or not he realizes his error, that just isn't how it works. If you just randomly start wailing on him, he's just going to think that you're Scottish or something, not that he's made a mistake and shouldn't do it again.
[editline]20th August 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;31835418]So...
What the hell bad thing did he do?
He's just a hyper kid, so was I.
This mom is a bitch.[/QUOTE]
He fought with pencils with his friend.
That's basically it.
[QUOTE=DarkSpider;31830809]Better to beat the kid's ass than to let him end up like those faggots on Jersey Shore. Sure he may emerge as a pussy when he grows up, but hey, better than letting him run wild.[/QUOTE]
I agree, you either hit your child or don't do any parenting at all. [B]There is no middle ground[/B]
[QUOTE=Sanius;31835372]Yes and so were a lot of other things. The difference is that the world is more civilized. We are not livingi n the 18th century.[/QUOTE]
The statement was 'behavioral problems have been solved before without "creative" punishments'.
And the answer is yes they were, kids with behavioral problems were corrected through corporal punishment. Now, because we are not living in the 18th century, we use means that are less direct than physical abuse. Such 'creative' punishments are an example.
That is all.
[QUOTE=Cone;31835435]The point of punishment is to stop rebellious thoughts at the root. If you're just beating a child senseless and think that will stop him doing whatever he's been doing without telling him why, you're an idiot.[/QUOTE]
You tell the kid what they did wrong, and then they're clear on what the consequences will be if they do it again. You don't need them to repent and form totally new morals because kids are always stubborn and often aren't going to behave morally, even if they know right from wrong, and there's nothing you can do about that. Discourage the behavior itself, and once they get to be teenagers you can start working on the 'why' rather than the 'what'.
Yes, his mom was an overreacting bitch. I'm not defending her. My point is solely that the forms of punishment she used are not at [i]all[/i] on the same level as physical abuse and treating hot sauce and a cold shower the same as bruises and broken limbs is a disservice to those who have actually experienced real abuse.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31836420]
You tell the kid what they did wrong, and then they're clear on what the consequences will be if they do it again. You don't need them to repent and form totally new morals because kids are always stubborn and often aren't going to behave morally, even if they know right from wrong, and there's nothing you can do about that. Discourage the behavior itself, and once they get to be teenagers you can start working on the 'why' rather than the 'what'.[/QUOTE]
That's how you raise children with no character. You're supposed to teach your children why what they did is undesirable and what the consequences will be of their actions. By beating your children you're not teaching them to do anything other than to avoid being beaten.
[QUOTE=Sanius;31836460]You're supposed to teach your children why what they did is undesirable and what the consequences will be of their actions.[/QUOTE]
That's what I said. But trying to persuade them through morals alone is usually fruitless. If you can't teach a kid to stop stealing solely because stealing is bad, you have to teach them to stop stealing because stealing is bad [i]and[/i] you'll receive so-and-so punishment (because it's bad).
The point of punishment in the first place is for the kid to not repeat the behavior, because he will be punished. Any punishment, no matter how mild, is intrinsically used to make it clear that a specific action is associated with negative consequences. It has to be used in conjunction with moral appeal, otherwise it's useless, but there's no way to get a kid to behave on morals and stern language alone.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31836559]It has to be used in conjunction with moral appeal, otherwise it's useless, but there's no way to get a kid to behave on morals and stern language alone.[/QUOTE]
That's only true if you're not a good parent.
[QUOTE=Sanius;31836583]That's only true if you're not a good parent.[/QUOTE]
Please, take a typical eight-year-old and get him to permanently stop doing some kind of antisocial behavior (stealing, shouting, fighting, whatever) by calmly telling him that it's wrong. No time-outs, no threats, no actual punishment. Then try and claim that all good parents are capable of such an incredible feat. You are literally saying that only bad parents ever need to give their kids time-outs.
As I said before, I work summers at a camp. The only way we can keep the kids in line is by threatening to take away computer access. If there's no punishment, there's no motivation to actually stop.
[QUOTE=catbarf;31836849]Please, take a typical eight-year-old and get him to permanently stop doing some kind of antisocial behavior (stealing, shouting, fighting, whatever) by calmly telling him that it's wrong. No time-outs, no threats, no actual punishment. Then try and claim that all good parents are capable of such an incredible feat. You are literally saying that only bad parents ever need to give their kids time-outs.[/QUOTE]
No one is saying there should be no punishment. Time-outs and taking away privileges are punishments, and they often work.
Physical punishment is scarring and immoral.
As shown earlier in the thread, I got spanked as a child. I can remember a belt a couple times, but that was rare.
I'm not a violent person, i've never hit another person or resorted to violence in situations in my life. I have no criminal record at age 19, never been pulled pulled over, don't drink, no drugs, don't smoke, currently working in a customer service position where things are going quite well. Girlfriend is happy, i'm happy, we're both advancing in our lives and we show no signs of depression. I'm so scarred, really, i'm thinking I need counseling for the horrific tortures I endured as a child.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31837311]No one is saying there should be no punishment. Time-outs and taking away privileges are punishments, and they often work.
Physical punishment is scarring and immoral.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the physical punishment. Tapping someone on the shoulder can be interpreted as physical punishment to some and I don't know your exact specifications to what is "physical punishment" to you. Also in regards to the immoral part, depends on who your asking everyone has different morals and were raised as such. So saying that really only refers to your opinion alone.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31837311]Physical punishment is scarring and immoral.[/QUOTE]
Very much debatable.
There is of course a limit to such things - for instance, anyone who thinks that a kid needs to be put on a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel]Catherine wheel[/url] for stealing probably needs their head checked. Giving that kid a spanking for the same reason does not. Now there are parents who believe that spankings are not the way to go, which I respect. Some of them may have been spanked as a kid and refuse to do it out of a sort of "I was there" sympathy or something. Some just take the pacifist route in things. Possibly it's due to a really bad childhood experience (ranging from abusive parents to the very rare case of "...the accident").
But there also parents who believe that sometimes you need to get physically involved. Maybe it's the traditional spanking, maybe it's something interesting (such as hot sauce hey look I tied the original article into this). As long as they don't go overboard on such punishments, then it's perfectly fine. Those parents may or may not have been spanked as a kid, had bad experiences that they managed to overcome, etc.
In a way, spanking v no spanking is just another one of those debates that separate us all as humans, similar to abortion.
Punishment like this leads to hate. I guarantee that five year old despises her.
He's five. If he still cries for her when he gets hurt by something, then he loves her regardless. Its hard to assume that since he gets punished for things then he hates her completely.
[QUOTE=Gareth;31811909]Why are people so quick to jump on the abuse card?
My mum used to make me gargle soap if i swore at home, and lo and behold i pretty much never swear at home and if i do i feel really guilty. I wouldn't consider that child abuse because i was not harmed but i was tought a lesson.
eh okay i just watched the shower bit and that seems a bit harsh[/QUOTE]
Is there any particular reason why your parents couldn't teach you why you shouldn't swear or when it's appropriate to swear, since eventually you're going to pick it up and use it somewhere down the line? Might as well just shove chemicals in your face or leave a bruise instead because guiding your child through life is much harder.
[QUOTE=Sanius;31836460]That's how you raise children with no character. You're supposed to teach your children why what they did is undesirable and what the consequences will be of their actions. By beating your children you're not teaching them to do anything other than to avoid being beaten.[/QUOTE]
a spanking does not constitute a beating
it hardly even hurts
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31837311]No one is saying there should be no punishment. Time-outs and taking away privileges are punishments, and they often work.
Physical punishment is scarring and immoral.[/QUOTE]
Read the post I replied to. Sanius was saying that only bad parents need to punish their kids, that any good parent can get their kid to behave through morality and stern language alone. That's just nonsense.
[QUOTE=TBFundy;31846836]a spanking does not constitute a beating
it hardly even hurts[/QUOTE]
im sure you still get plenty
[QUOTE=3com111;31811602]Oh boo hoo. A cold shower and eating hot sauce?
A much better punishment than getting smacked with a belt or a cane. And that was encouraged in schools for years.[/QUOTE]
3com you may be my bro, but you say some of the stupidest things ever
Thing is, spanking a children or punishing your children in a physical way, that includes screaming at them, makes them fear their parents. This will not stop your children from disbehaving, especially if they know their parents won't find out. What you want to do is make them respect you as a parent, that way it's more likely they won't misbehave when you wouldn't find out because they have a conscience and they want to act properly, like their parents.
Another thing about physically punishing your children is that while it doesn't make the child really respect their parents, it makes it harder to teach them morality, what is right and wrong. So that way they won't respect other people, which can lead to the child acting mean and tease (in a bad way) other children and people.
I bet the kid is going to be fucked up psychologically with the way his mom treats him.
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