Europe needs united army, EU parliament committee head urges after Brexit - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Kigen;50598309]I already covered it pretty well. The system is designed to be a bureaucratic nightmare. That way its very difficult to have legislative initiative with the European Parliament. Basically, if the current Commission doesn't want to table legislation that, for instance, takes away a EU power, then they can refuse to do so. The European Parliament must then make a 2/3rd vote of censure. At which point the entire Commission has to be replaced. However, the current Commission can continue with business as usual until such replacements are made. And the replacements are not guaranteed to follow the will of the European Parliament.[/QUOTE] except if the commission refuses to follow the will of the european parliament, then the parliament simply refuses to allow the commission to take power because they have to get the assent of the parliament so the commission 1) proposes laws that can be shut down by parliament 2) can be censured by parliament if the commission is being bad 3) can be halted at the door and prevented from ever taking power by parliament

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598331]except if the commission refuses to follow the will of the european parliament, then the parliament simply refuses to allow the commission to take power because they have to get the assent of the parliament so the commission 1) proposes laws that can be shut down by parliament 2) can be censured by parliament if the commission is being bad 3) can be halted at the door and prevented from ever taking power by parliament[/QUOTE] Lets say this EU Army takes hold. Then for some reason, the European Parliament wants to dissolve it. And anyone can lie during appointment. How exactly do you think they're going to be able to do this if the Commission and Council are not on board with the idea? We have politicians all the time that promise they'll do this or that when they get elected. The do the opposite. Power has a habit of corrupting people. And you think someone who is appointed and can only be removed in very hard circumstances is going to care as much as someone who is directly elected?

[QUOTE=Kigen;50598338]Lets say this EU Army takes hold. Then for some reason, the European Parliament wants to dissolve it. And anyone can lie during appointment. How exactly do you think they're going to be able to do this if the Commission and Council are not on board with the idea? We have politicians all the time that promise they'll do this or that when they get elected. The do the opposite. Power has a habit of corrupting people. And you think someone who is appointed and can only be removed in very hard circumstances is going to care as much as someone who is directly elected?[/QUOTE] vote of no confidence censure of the commission this has already been said

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598354]vote of no confidence censure of the commission this has already been said[/QUOTE] The further someone is insulated from the wrath of the people, the less they will care about the will of the people. I covered censure via Parliament in a previous post.

[QUOTE=Kigen;50598375]The further someone is insulated from the wrath of the people, the less they will care about the will of the people. I covered censure via Parliament in a previous post.[/QUOTE] no you haven't. the commission is censured and that's the end of it if you're saying it doesn't take effect immediately, congratulations, that's political systems round the world

How will their lack of care override the protections in place? nvm, ninjad.

Cloak Raider. Seriously answer the question. The EU passes a law say about the army. Then the people who got voted into the parliament want said law reversed. Both commission and council wants the army to stay. How is it going to work? Step by step. Step 1. "vote of no confidence censure of the commission" And then?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598097] He didn't say in this very video that the commission is vetted by the parliament, he does go on a length about it in a different one. He's aware of that. Here's a vid where he mentions it [url]https://youtu.be/5vpo9qzsfL4?t=293[/url] And it doesn't matter really. He said the commission isn't elected by the popular vote. He said the legislation is proposed by commission. He said that people who you do get to vote on have no power to initiate the legislation. You elect people who elect the commission. You can't elect the people who propose the legislation. And once that legislation passes there is no way to change it back as the people you can elect can't propose anything themselves. [/QUOTE] Oooooh so you weren't talking about the video when someon posted the video and as a reaction of the video people were talking about what he says and doesn't say. Maaan if you had said that earlier instead of after people asked you where in the video he is saying it.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598418]Cloak Raider. Seriously answer the question. The EU passes a law say about the army. Then the people who got voted into the parliament want said law reversed. Both commission and council wants the army to stay. How is it going to work? Step by step. Step 1. "vote of no confidence censure of the commission" And then?[/QUOTE] so let's get something straight, in this thought experiment the parliament immediately disagrees with the piece of legislation they [I]just passed?[/I]

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598428]so let's get something straight, in this thought experiment the parliament immediately disagrees with the piece of legislation they [I]just passed?[/I][/QUOTE] No no no. Say it has been few years. [U]People of the member countries didn't like the army[/U] or whatever, and at the next elections for the EU parliament they elected politicians who oppose the army. Another one. Say Poland is now forced to introduce the Euro currency. Polish people oppose it in 90%. What can they do?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598455]No no no. Say it has been few years. People of the member countries didn't like the army or whatever, and elected politicians who oppose the army to the EU parliament at the next election.[/QUOTE] is the army unpopular with the member-states or is it popular?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598455]No no no. Say it has been few years. [U]People of the member countries didn't like the army[/U] or whatever, and at the next elections for the EU parliament they elected politicians who oppose the army. Another one. Say Poland is now forced to introduce the Euro currency. Polish people oppose it in 90%. What can they do?[/QUOTE] If you really think a country being forced into the Euro by legislation is a realistic scenario you are kinda beyond help

[QUOTE=Killuah;50598483]If you really think a country being forced into the Euro by legislation is a realistic scenario you are kinda beyond help[/QUOTE] Replace it with "a law that 90% of Polish people oppose" if it distracts you from the main point and makes you unable not to throw insults at someone you're disagreeing with. You just can't stop yourself can you? [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598460]is the army unpopular with the member-states or is it popular?[/QUOTE] EU army has passed. It's been few years. 2 situations now. 1.Most member countries elected politicians to the parliament who oppose the army. 2.90% of people a single member country voted for anti-army politicians.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50597603]"The EU cannot rely on the transatlantic partnership with the US to deal with “external threats,” the chancellor said."[/QUOTE] Oh so Europe promising to deal with their own shit for once?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598509]Replace it with "a law that 90% of Polish people oppose" if it distracts you from the main point and makes you unable not to throw insults at someone you're disagreeing with. You just can't stop yourself can you? [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] EU army has passed. It's been few years. 2 situations now. 1.Most member countries elected politicians to the parliament who oppose the army. 2.90% of people a single member country voted for anti-army politicians.[/QUOTE] cool situation 1 EU council is against existence of european army so it puts forward an anti-eu army president to the commission, who is accepted into the position because the anti-EU army parliament votes in favour of them they pass a piece of legislation removing the army, which is passed, and the army disappears in number 2 country negotiates with EU exceptions, like the UK has done on multiple occasions and many many other countries have, or leaves the EU [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sableye;50598532]Oh so Europe promising to deal with their own shit for once?[/QUOTE] ok

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598561]cool situation 1 EU council is against existence of european army so it puts forward an anti-eu army president to the commission, who is accepted into the position because the anti-EU army parliament votes in favour of them they pass a piece of legislation removing the army, which is passed, and the army disappears[/QUOTE] Ok so to[I] even put up for a vote[/I] a legislation reversing the law that has been implemented some time ago you need to replace vast majority of the parliament and by extension the council which will then need to elect a anti-army president and vet a commission that is also going to support this. Correct? So it's extremely hard to do then? While it's pretty easy to pass a strengthening cooperation laws now? With all the pro-superstate MPs? To make the EU take a step back you'd have to have the majority of europe electing eurosceptic MPs. If the support for a law has a pretty much equal split, you're not really going to follow this scenario. That's why "they only need to get lucky once". [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598561]in number 2 country negotiates with EU exceptions, like the UK has done on multiple occasions and many many other countries have, or leaves the EU[/QUOTE] Okay so it turns out there really is no way to do anything about it. At best you can hope your government can negotiate an exception to the implementation of that law. As a small country how likely is this? Or if it was something as important as the army? And as a final solution you leave the EU. Yeah that's pretty much the argument. Once the EU passes a law even though your country voted against it, you can't do anything about it. There's no way to even [U][B]propose [/B][/U]reversing the law without replacing pretty much everyone in the EU parliament, council and commission. You can't propose any legislation even with the support of the entire country. That's my problem with it. You might be ok with it but I'm not.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598727]Ok so to[I] even put up for a vote[/I] a legislation reversing the law that has been implemented some time ago you need to replace vast majority of the parliament and by extension the council which will then need to elect a anti-army president and vet a commission that is also going to support this. Correct?[/QUOTE] How is this not the case for basically any democracy lol of course a 180° turn of legislation is incredibly hard you yourself were the one to suggest the scenario jesus christ man

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598727]Ok so to[I] even put up for a vote[/I] a legislation reversing the law that has been implemented some time ago you need to replace vast majority of the parliament and by extension the council which will then need to elect a anti-army president and vet a commission that is also going to support this. Correct? So it's extremely hard to do then? While it's pretty easy to pass a strengthening cooperation laws now? With all the pro-superstate MPs? To make the EU take a step back you'd have to have the majority of europe electing eurosceptic MPs. If the support for a law has a pretty much equal split, you're not really going to follow this scenario. That's why "they only need to get lucky once". Okay so it turns out there really is no way to do anything about it. At best you can hope your government can negotiate an exception to the implementation of that law. As a small country how likely is this? Or if it was something as important as the army? And as a final solution you leave the EU. Yeah that's pretty much the argument. Once the EU passes a law even though your country voted against it, you can't do anything about it. There's no way to even [U][B]propose [/B][/U]reversing the law without replacing pretty much everyone in the EU parliament, council and commission. You can't propose any legislation even with the support of the entire country. That's my problem with it. You might be ok with it but I'm not.[/QUOTE] Wtf you suggest a scenario in which certain things are the case and then you go "see!!! You have to replace everything" no, that's the rules of your scenario. [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;50598755]How is this not the case for basically any democracy lol of course a 180° turn of legislation is incredibly hard you yourself were the one to suggest the scenario jesus christ man[/QUOTE] Exactly this wtf

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598727] Okay so it turns out there really is no way to do anything about it. At best you can hope your government can negotiate an exception to the implementation of that law. As a small country how likely is this? Or if it was something as important as the army? And as a final solution you leave the EU. Yeah that's pretty much the argument. Once the EU passes a law even though your country voted against it, you can't do anything about it. There's no way to even [U][B]propose [/B][/U]reversing the law without replacing pretty much everyone in the EU parliament, council and commission. You can't propose any legislation even with the support of the entire country. That's my problem with it. You might be ok with it but I'm not.[/QUOTE] This is just rich [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50594593]Holy fuck. Was question in referendum "is leaving the EU objectively good for UK or not" or was it "do you want the UK to leave or not". This isn't the matter of something being objectively good or not. There is no objective good in this situation. You can't weight everything in pounds. For someone not having the EU dictate laws to the UK might be more important than taking the hit on the economy. I'm saying they've voted for subjectively evaluated reasons that don't speak to you (or perhaps even me). You're covertly calling them idiots. Subtle difference you seem to be unable to grasp. Not everyone likes that the EU is making laws for their counties, which they can't do anything about. They would rather have their own governments make their laws. Governments that they have much more control of. This is your counter argument that the EU is not just a trade union? You're just proving my point. [B]Well that's democracy for you. Where two bums have more voting power than a political science professor. The majority rules over the minority. Don't like it? Change your system to tyranny or something.[/B][/QUOTE]

Too soon EU, too soon

[QUOTE=Killuah;50598755]How is this not the case for basically any democracy lol [/QUOTE] Because you don't have to replace the ENTIRE Polish government to be able to even PROPOSE a law. "lol" [QUOTE=Killuah;50598755]of course a 180° turn of legislation is incredibly hard you yourself were the one to suggest the scenario jesus christ man[/QUOTE] It's extremely hard to even PROPOSE it. [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598762]Wtf you suggest a scenario in which certain things are the case and then you go "see!!! You have to replace everything" no, that's the rules of your scenario.[/QUOTE] My point was, it's practically impossible to make the EU take a step back and you are in the shitter if your country doesn't want certain laws passed by the EU. You tried to show me how I was wrong and failed. I didn't come up with these laws. [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;50598770]This is just rich[/QUOTE] Or you can leave and have your own sovereign government. Which you still can't to your head even though I've told you this 15 times now.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598813]Because you don't have to replace the ENTIRE Polish government to be able to even PROPOSE a law. "lol" It's extremely hard to even PROPOSE it. My point was, it's practically impossible to make the EU take a step back and you are in the shitter if your country doesn't want certain laws passed by the EU. You tried to show me how I was wrong and failed. I didn't come up with these laws. [/QUOTE] Yes because your proposed scenario makes it hard just like in every representative democracy.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598813]Because you don't have to replace the ENTIRE Polish government to be able to even PROPOSE a law. "lol" It's extremely hard to even PROPOSE it. My point was, it's practically impossible to make the EU take a step back and you are in the shitter if your country doesn't want certain laws passed by the EU. You tried to show me how I was wrong and failed. I didn't come up with these laws. [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] Or you can leave. Which you still can't to your head even though I've told you this 15 times now.[/QUOTE] no you propose a scenario in which the parliament and commission are replaced, and then replaced by an anti-army parliament and commission And then you go "Look!!! You have to replace both of them to get change!!!!" no, that was YOUR SCENARIO the fact that you're suggesting something that is a problem for every democracy really suggests you have literally no idea what your own argument is

It's actually even easier to propose changes for smaller countries with less weight since the comission has one member per state, not proportionally to the inhabitants of countries. Fucking lol

It gets even better "Under the Treaty of Lisbon, no legislative act is allowed in the field of the Common Foreign and Security Policy." That is up to council. And there we have: "Decisions require unanimity among member states in the Council of the European Union," Your scenario for an army doesn't even work

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;50598835]no you propose a scenario in which the parliament and commission are replaced, and then replaced by an anti-army parliament and commission And then you go "Look!!! You have to replace both of them to get change!!!!" no, that was YOUR SCENARIO[/QUOTE] What the fuck seriously? We have looked at 2 possibilities when member countries oppose an already passed EU law. When the opposing countries are a majority and when they are a tiny minority. And it turns out to make the EU take a step back you need to pretty much replace the entire EU government with eurosceptics to EVEN PROPOSE the change. And when you are a tiny minority you can pray to negotiate an exception or leave the EU. What are the other options? Close split of support and opposition? It's just pretty much the second option. There is no "SCENARIO" where making the EU to take a step back is realistic. That was my point all along.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50598882]It gets even better "Under the Treaty of Lisbon, no legislative act is allowed in the field of the Common Foreign and Security Policy." That is up to council. And there we have: "Decisions require unanimity among member states in the Council of the European Union," Your scenario for an army doesn't even work[/QUOTE] It gets better and better the more I read "Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU citizens are also able to request the Commission to legislate in an area via a petition carrying one million signatures, but this is not binding.[53]"

[QUOTE=Killuah;50598862]It's actually even easier to propose changes for smaller countries with less weight since the comission has one member per state, not proportionally to the inhabitants of countries. Fucking lol[/QUOTE] The size of the country was about negotiating an exception. Seriously I'm getting tired of you twisting everything around. [QUOTE=Killuah;50598882]It gets even better "Under the Treaty of Lisbon, no legislative act is allowed in the field of the Common Foreign and Security Policy." That is up to council. And there we have: "Decisions require unanimity among member states in the Council of the European Union," Your scenario for an army doesn't even work[/QUOTE] Like I told you [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598509]Replace it with "a law that 90% of Polish people oppose" if it distracts you from the main point.[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter what the hypothetical law is. Might as well be "law X" but you just can't stop yourself from convoluting things.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598931]The size of the country was about negotiating an exception. Seriously I'm getting tired of you twisting everything around. [/quote] Your point was that it's harder to even propose a change, it turns out that it's even EASIER to make a proposition for smaller countries that would be easily overruled in parliament. How is that twisting everything. The only one twisting around is you and your position when confronted with how the EU actually works. [quote] It doesn't matter what the hypothetical law is. Might as well be "law X" but you just can't stop yourself from convoluting things.[/QUOTE] Ah yes suddenly when your example doesn't even work "It doesn't matter what the hypothetical law is" Sure dude. Sure. [editline]26th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;50598418]Cloak Raider. Seriously answer the question. The EU passes a [B]law say about the army.[/B] Then the people who got voted into the parliament want said law reversed. Both commission and council wants the army to stay. How is it going to work? Step by step. Step 1. "vote of no confidence censure of the commission" And then?[/QUOTE]

I say we take Britain back with force and free Scottland and Ireland from their slavery