Greek Talks Collapse - EU Bailout "absurd" "unacceptable" Say Greek Government - Polidicks

[QUOTE=shutter_eye5;47156119]Isn't the main problem is that most greeks don't pay their taxes? Talk about backwards[/QUOTE] Sounds like Italy

[QUOTE=archangel125;47155584]The previous bailouts were the primary reason the Greek economy hasn't recovered yet. Damn good on them for rejecting this one.[/QUOTE] How so?

It's at times like these I'm glad I live in Canada. Worst case scenario we get annexed by the US but hey, cheap burgers!

[QUOTE=Sableye;47155994]Pretty sure in the 90s Germany's economy wasnt much better than Greece's, after all they had to rebuild half their now unified country, pay debts incurred and find work for the millions of unskilled laborers dumped onto their system. The fact that Germany is in such good shape today reflects what smart fiscal and social policies can do. Even in the US where republicans want to adopt German like fiscal policies they forget the social programs Germany undertook to help improve the workers who ultimately generate the taxes[/QUOTE] But Germany, unlike Greece, was given [B]very[/B] favourable terms. Per London Agreement, they had to pay only when they ran a trade surplus and the amount they had to pay couldn't go over 3% of the value of their exports. That doesn't mean that Kohl didn't do an astounding job of kickstarting the german economy, but there's a lot of hypocrisy running around in Europe. After all, the Greeks lied on the most important barrier to entry in the EZ, the deficit, but France and Germany routinely broke the 3% limit several times in the 2000s and nobody fined them because... well, they're France and Germany.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;47156533]How so?[/QUOTE] The conditions of the bailouts were for Greece to sell most of its public assets (privatize them) cut government spending, and open their borders to free trade from outside, meaning that they could no longer protect domestic industries. That's 'Austerity' for you. Economic superpowers use the country as a market, and almost all the profit they make leaves Greece. Infrastructure goes to shit. Welfare, healthcare, education, everything that was once subsidized by the government is now sold to the highest corporate bidder or completely axed. The government is forced to raise taxes to fill up their treasuries - Not to spend on their own people, but to pay off their international debt, and pay off the IMF. In a similar manner, IMF bailouts have ruined countries like Jamaica and Haiti, driving most local businesses bankrupt and leaving the majority of the population under the poverty line. The only ones who benefit are the ultra-rich, foreign megacorporations, and the economy goes down the shitter. [editline]17th February 2015[/editline] The IMF and its so-called 'bailouts' are merely a vehicle for economic superpowers to sell to new markets without protectionism or tariffs, and to keep conditions in a country at third-world levels so that foreign corporations can operate there cheaply. That's the ugly side of globalization. And these swindling assholes are an internationally respected organization. Pah.

[QUOTE=archangel125;47156552]The conditions of the bailouts were for Greece to sell most of its public assets (privatize them) cut government spending, and open their borders to free trade from outside, meaning that they could no longer protect domestic industries. That's 'Austerity' for you. Economic superpowers use the country as a market, and almost all the profit they make leaves Greece. Infrastructure goes to shit. Welfare, healthcare, education, everything that was once subsidized by the government is now sold to the highest corporate bidder or completely axed. The government is forced to raise taxes to fill up their treasuries - Not to spend on their own people, but to pay off their international debt, and pay off the IMF. In a similar manner, IMF bailouts have ruined countries like Jamaica and Haiti, driving most local businesses bankrupt and leaving the majority of the population under the poverty line. The only ones who benefit are the ultra-rich, foreign megacorporations, and the economy goes down the shitter. [editline]17th February 2015[/editline] The IMF and its so-called 'bailouts' are merely a vehicle for economic superpowers to sell to new markets without protectionism or tariffs, and to keep conditions in a country at third-world levels so that foreign corporations can operate there cheaply. That's the ugly side of globalization. And these swindling assholes are an internationally respected organization. Pah.[/QUOTE] I don't know too much about the history of the IMF (and it may be very dark), but wouldn't you agree that Greece brought much of this on themselves? They cut corporate tax in half through the 00's (granted, this can work if your citizens pay taxes - Denmark is at 25% or so) from 40% to 20%, tax evasion is rampant, and the retirement age is very low (61 years (or was it 63) compared to 69 in Denmark and many other European countries). In Denmark you can expect 10.5 years of retirement before death, in Greece you can expect almost 20. Spending cuts aren't nice, but Greece has lived beyond measures for too long. I don't know the solution to this, but it could've been prevented altogether with a bit of foresight.

[QUOTE=archangel125;47156552]In a similar manner, IMF bailouts have ruined countries like Jamaica and Haiti, driving most local businesses bankrupt and leaving the majority of the population under the poverty line.[/QUOTE] lmao blaming the IMF for Haiti

For everyone thinking that Greece doesn't deserve a bailout, every greek person shouldn't suffer because their government is stupid. However, I really don't think the government is in any position to make demands and turn down help like this. Beggars can't be choosers.

[QUOTE=maeZtro;47156943]For everyone thinking that Greece doesn't deserve a bailout, every greek person shouldn't suffer because their government is stupid. However, I really don't think the government is in any position to make demands and turn down help like this. Beggars can't be choosers.[/QUOTE] The bailout has strings attached. Read the rest of the thread.

[QUOTE=archangel125;47156955]The bailout has strings attached. Read the rest of the thread.[/QUOTE] I have and I still think Greece would be better of taking the deal. Of course IMF and EU is gonna want something out of this, they are trowing money at a country that just keeps fucking it self over with tax evasion and unreasonably low retirement age. That being said, it's not black and white and I get that this could damage Greece, but if they were to play their cards right I think they would have been able to gain from it.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;47153722]Great video on the subject by the way: [video=youtube;C8xAXJx9WJ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8[/video][/QUOTE] This is weird. They said Germany would bailout other countries if they would accept austerity measures [U]in order not to let this happen again[/U] but those implemented austerity measures would not prevent it from happening again and the only thing that could stop it is unified fiscal policy?

When will Greece sell their islands! I want to buy lemnos and stratis so I can create the Republic of altis and stratis from arma 3 They probably only want 50 quid for them anyway

The whole EU will make an unforgettable mistake if they left fall Greece. During all this time, they have been following the recommendations given to reduce the debt, but it only made it worse. Same with the rest of south Europe. If Greece falls, no one will pay the debt. The economic strategy must to be changed, before it's too late. The source of all this problem is the corruption. Fight it, and you will solved half the problem.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;47157150]This is weird. They said Germany would bailout other countries if they would accept austerity measures [U]in order not to let this happen again[/U] but those implemented austerity measures would not prevent it from happening again and the only thing that could stop it is unified fiscal policy?[/QUOTE] Austerity measures are a short term solution, unified fiscal policy is a long term one.

[QUOTE=maeZtro;47156988] they are trowing money at a country that just keeps fucking it self over with tax evasion and [b]unreasonably low retirement age.[/b][/QUOTE] A low retirement age would probably be less of a problem than it currently is if a large portion of the population weren't elderly. This is however the case. Old age is quite a demographic problem in Greece, and it won't likely get better soon.

[QUOTE=maeZtro;47156943]For everyone thinking that Greece doesn't deserve a bailout, every greek person shouldn't suffer because their government is stupid. However, I really don't think the government is in any position to make demands and turn down help like this. Beggars can't be choosers.[/QUOTE] The government changed a few weeks ago. So yes they are in that position, because they were elected for their anti-austersity // anti-memorandum program.

You want the money, you have to work for it. The way most people see it is that Greece wants the money, but doesn't want to do anything for it. It's like eating big at a fancy restaurant, forking the bill over to your neighbor who's been dining on a salad all evening, and then getting pissed when he mentions you have to do fitness to stay in shape in exchange for him paying the bill.

[QUOTE=i_speel_good;47157884]The government changed a few weeks ago. So yes they are in that position, because they were elected for their anti-austersity // anti-memorandum program.[/QUOTE] They have every right to go and demand things, and the Germans have every right to tell them to fuck off.

there sure are a lot of uninformed opinions in this thread. these talks aren't an argument between two children, the notion of germany telling greece to 'fuck off' is ridiculous. a greek collapse would go further than just greece, and you would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.