[QUOTE=JDK721;23269016][URL="http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense/941.pdf"]Defense Trial Exhibit 941[/URL] from the trial [URL="http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/"]United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A[/URL] states the following:
[release]Sheikh Mohammed said that the purpose of the attack on the Twin Towers was to "wake the American people up." Sheikh Mohammed said that if the target would have been strictly military or government, the American people would not focus on the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel against the Palestinian people and America's self-serving foreign policy that corrupts Arab governments and leads to further exploitation of the Arab/Muslim peoples.[/release][/QUOTE]
It's too bad that nobody realized this and it backfired.
Killing a bunch of innocent people isn't cool, but when the entire reason for it is lost in the hysteria saddens me.
It would have been nice is people would have been like "Hey, maybe we should stop butt fucking the middle east" instead of a savage rage and rape what was left of the entire region.
[editline]01:25AM[/editline]
I think bin Laden made the assumption that Americans were logical.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;23269168]It's too bad that nobody realized this and it backfired.
Killing a bunch of innocent people isn't cool, but when the entire reason for it is lost in the hysteria saddens me.
It would have been nice is people would have been like "Hey, maybe we should stop butt fucking the middle east" instead of a savage rage and rape what was left of the entire region.[/QUOTE]
On the bright side nobody's going to try that again now that it backfired so hard.
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269156]To be honest a liberal tea party sounds stupid I don't want even more big party groups who pretend like they're a rebel minority.[/QUOTE]
They don't think of themselves as a rebel minority, they're fighting to be a majority.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;23269203]They don't think of themselves as a rebel minority, they're fighting to be a majority.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and the best way to rile people up to take the white house is by encouraging this way of thinking that we are all being oppressed and we have to fight back instead of the politics as usual game. This is why you get idiots who take it to the next step and plan "armed revolutions". It's entirely too effective.
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269237]Yeah and the best way to rile people up to take the white house is by encouraging this way of thinking that we are all being oppressed and we have to fight back instead of the politics as usual game. This is why you get idiots who take it to the next step and plan "armed revolutions". It's entirely too effective.[/QUOTE]
lol what tea partiers are planning armed insurrections?
Also it is true that we weren't listened to very much early in Obama's term.
[QUOTE=StephenOrlov;23269162]You're taking away half of their money, that's how.
Taxes are too high everywhere. Even for the poor. But you shouldn't [I]make [/I]the rich pay for the poor.
Which is why I don't believe in income tax[/QUOTE]
the idea of progressive tax isn't "punishing the rich", it's who has the most capacity to provide for the state
you have to understand, there's no government unless the people sacrifice certain things, you can't have it both ways
-snip- didn't read your post correctly.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;23269251]lol what tea partiers are planning armed insurrections?[/QUOTE]
Nobody major and the majority of the tea party obviously doesn't support it but their are small time idiots claiming to be "militias" and shit.
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269259]the idea of progressive tax isn't "punishing the rich", it's who has the most capacity to provide for the state
you have to understand, there's no government unless the people sacrifice certain things, you can't have it both ways[/QUOTE]
And I understand that.<3
But everyone should sacrifice evenly. And on the level of fundumental rights, I don't think the government should take a certain percentage of my pay check (Income Tax)
It seems wrong.
Sales tax pretty much taxes everyone evenly. You can be rich and buy a shit load of stuff, and pay more taxes than someone who is also rich that is fiscal.
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269265]Nobody major and the majority of the tea party obviously doesn't support it but their are small time idiots claiming to be "militias" and shit.[/QUOTE]
Most militias are completely legitimate.
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;23269315]Most militias are completely legitimate.[/QUOTE]
Yeah they're armed and prepared I'm just saying I highly doubt they'll do shit.
[QUOTE=StephenOrlov;23269310]
But everyone should sacrifice evenly.[/QUOTE]
but one sum isn't the same sacrifice for all, 1000 dollars means a lot more to a minimum wage worker than a successful CEO.
put it too high, the minimum wage worker will suffer very badly, but put it too low and you'll have an ineffective government
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269361]but one sum isn't the same sacrifice for all, 1000 dollars means a lot more to a minimum wage worker than a successful CEO.
put it too high, the minimum wage worker will suffer very badly, but put it too low and you'll have an ineffective government[/QUOTE]
The government, I think, shouldn't have to take too many taxes because it shouldn't have to pay for a gigantic defense bill or government bailout failures. (See Cash for Clunkers) :3
I guess the idea of taxing each person for a % for what they're worth makes some sense..
But I can't really say I support an income tax. I don't know.
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269265]Nobody major and the majority of the tea party obviously doesn't support it but their are small time idiots claiming to be "militias" and shit.[/QUOTE]
It's more than just a few of them that are supporting it, and their leaders are too:
[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/13/oklahoma-tea-party-plans_n_535412.html[/url]
[url]http://www.alan.com/2010/03/25/alabama-militia-leader-continues-to-threaten-violence-against-democratic-offices/[/url]
[url]http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/local_tea_party_leader_who_suggested_shooting_hisp.php[/url]
There is a very real possibility of things getting violent especially around the election.
[QUOTE=StephenOrlov;23269393]
But I can't really say I support an income tax. I don't know.[/QUOTE]
without income tax other tax measures would have to take place, and the thing about income tax is that its effect on the economy is minimal compared to VAT, property tax, or fuel tax.
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269361]but one sum isn't the same sacrifice for all, 1000 dollars means a lot more to a minimum wage worker than a successful CEO.
put it too high, the minimum wage worker will suffer very badly, but put it too low and you'll have an ineffective government[/QUOTE]
The federal government should be able to operate on almost nothing. Especially if they only do constitutional things.
I'm not at all implying that states and local governments can do the same thing.
Most things that people bring up as government services are provided by the state and local governments like roads, police, firemen, etc.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;23269437]The federal government should be able to operate on almost nothing. Especially if they only do constitutional things.[/QUOTE]
the federal government grew out of need for it to grow
one example: before federal mint, money was useless as everyone printed their own to the point where gold was used as a medium instead, and gold was impractical to say the least
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269454]the federal government grew out of need for it to grow
one example: before federal mint, money was useless as everyone printed their own to the point where gold was used as a medium instead, and gold was impractical to say the least[/QUOTE]
What? The Constitution said only the federal government can coin money. And I said they should only do Constitutional things.
And I'm not sure what you're even trying to say.
Printing money isn't a huge expenditure.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;23269532]What? The Constitution said only the federal government can coin money. And I said they should only do Constitutional things.
And I'm not sure what you're even trying to say.
Printing money isn't a huge expenditure.[/QUOTE]
what i'm trying to say is that federal government should expand to serve the people regardless of what the constitution says
i will agree that the constitution's ideas were vital to the united states but we cannot let a piece of paper override progress
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269454]the federal government grew out of need for it to grow
one example: before federal mint, money was useless as everyone printed their own to the point where gold was used as a medium instead, and gold was impractical to say the least[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;23269532]What? The Constitution said only the federal government can coin money. And I said they should only do Constitutional things.
And I'm not sure what you're even trying to say.
Printing money isn't a huge expenditure.[/QUOTE]
pwned.
And that's what I'm getting at PvtCupcakee, that the federal government shouldn't have to run on what it is running on now.
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269646]what i'm trying to say is that federal government should expand to serve the people regardless of what the constitution says
i will agree that the constitution's ideas were vital to the united states but we cannot let a piece of paper override progress[/QUOTE]
Progress? When the government tries anything that isn't in the constitution, it knocks any progress the private sector is making! :3
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269646]what i'm trying to say is that federal government should expand to serve the people regardless of what the constitution says
i will agree that the constitution's ideas were vital to the united states but we cannot let a piece of paper override progress[/QUOTE]
Start ignoring the constitution and both sides will. It's important to have a foundation to prevent extremism.
[QUOTE=DamagePoint;23267761][url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/09/AR2010070903716.html?hpid=topnews[/url]
Oh dear. Although I think this is needed, the Tea Party already has a lot of support and money going into the November election. At least this will counter that some.[/QUOTE]
My reply:
[img]http://www.facepunch.com/image.php?u=134862&dateline=1278824263[/img]
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269678]Start ignoring the constitution and both sides will. It's important to have a foundation to prevent extremism.[/QUOTE]
but the constitution is slowly loosing its power
freedom of speech isn't guaranteed in the places where it has become important like the internet and the media yet the government oversees it
and we can't amend the constitution to guarantee us this
[editline]12:02AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=StephenOrlov;23269669]
Progress? When the government tries anything that isn't in the constitution, it knocks any progress the private sector is making! :3[/QUOTE]
now you're being naive
the only reason the federal government does anything is because the need for it arrives
if the private sector could do fine without federal help, we wouldn't have needed FDR to save it
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269722]but the constitution is slowly loosing its power
freedom of speech isn't guaranteed in the places where it has become important like the internet and the media yet the government oversees it
and we can't amend the constitution to guarantee us this[/QUOTE]
Exactly and that wouldn't be happening if it weren't for people deciding the constituion wasn't important.
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269785]Exactly and that wouldn't be happening if it weren't for people deciding the constituion wasn't important.[/QUOTE]
i just disagree with the idea that the constitution is some omnipotent force that must be abided at all times
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269785]Exactly and that wouldn't be happening if it weren't for people deciding the constituion wasn't important.[/QUOTE]
The constitution is sorely outdated. We were supposed to have constitutional conventions every 20 years but haven't had one since it was adopted.
The only thing really outdated is the second amendment because of the various advances in firearms. Everything else is pretty timeless.
[QUOTE=thisispain;23269809]i just disagree with the idea that the constitution is some omnipotent force that must be abided at all times[/QUOTE]
If any change is drastically needed it will be amended.
[QUOTE=Mexican;23269868]The only thing really outdated is the second amendment because of the various advances in firearms. Everything else is pretty timeless.
If any change is drastically needed it will be amended.[/QUOTE]
No there are many other things that need to be added. Such as the power of the government to provide a public health service and a right to privacy. There are things they didn't or couldn't think about 200 years ago that need to be incorporated into the constitution.
[QUOTE=DamagePoint;23269821]The constitution is sorely outdated. We were supposed to have constitutional conventions every 20 years but haven't had one since it was adopted.[/QUOTE]
In what aspects? All that needs to be changed will be amended.
Though the part where it says that treaties are above the law of the land is retarded.
[editline]12:15AM[/editline]
[quote=damagepoint;23269929]no there are many other things that need to be added. Such as the power of the government to provide a public health service and a right to privacy.[/quote]
public health is not a god given right.
Things to add doesn't really make it outdated though when you say outdated it makes me think the things in it no longer apply.
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