Bernie Sanders is the Most Electable Candidate in Either Party - Polidicks

[QUOTE=-nesto-;49239948]Sanders will be a lame duck at most. You can't base all of your plans and ideas on "Its fine, Wall Street and the 1% will pay for it all" when Wall Street has a large amount of politicians in their pockets. Good luck passing anything.[/QUOTE] Better a lame duck Sanders than a powerful shill Hillary or any of the Republicans for that matter.

if bernie doesn't win the democratic nomination then i'm voting trump and moving to canada to watch the country go up in flames

[QUOTE=cody8295;49243099]15 actually. Many economists agree with bernies ideas and say it could save us billions. Reinstating glass steagal and breaking up the too big to fail banks and adding a tax to wall street speculation along with higher taxes on the rich are my favorite positions of his. We have the ability to give every citizen health care and a higher education[/QUOTE] Let me explain why raising the minimum wage is a bad idea, considering I have an economics degree maybe I have some validity, but this is the internet so whatever. When you force companies (especially small businesses) to pay their employees that much more all you get is further unemployment because businesses can now not afford to either hire as many people, or work their employees as much (less hours, etc). The alternative is to raise prices of their good or service but that isn't really viable since customers as less willing to pay for something when you just hike the prices and will find what they want elsewhere (this is especially true for food services). [QUOTE=Duck M.;49243775] If you honest to god think that Trump is a better candidate than Bernie then you're beyond saving lol[/QUOTE] I didn't say I supported Trump, but Bernie is a worse candidate by far. But at least when he loses the nomination the resulting butthurt will be gold.

[QUOTE=wystan;49244833]Let me explain why raising the minimum wage is a bad idea, considering I have an economics degree maybe I have some validity, but this is the internet so whatever. When you force companies (especially small businesses) to pay their employees that much more all you get is further unemployment because businesses can now not afford to either hire as many people, or work their employees as much (less hours, etc). The alternative is to raise prices of their good or service but that isn't really viable since customers as less willing to pay for something when you just hike the prices and will find what they want elsewhere (this is especially true for food services). I didn't say I supported Trump, but Bernie is a worse candidate by far. But at least when he loses the nomination the resulting butthurt will be gold.[/QUOTE] Nobody on Facepunch is going to listen or care about your opinion, as much as I agree with you. Arguing against the left is really, really pointless on a website such as FP.

[QUOTE=wystan;49244833]Let me explain why raising the minimum wage is a bad idea, considering I have an economics degree maybe I have some validity, but this is the internet so whatever. When you force companies (especially small businesses) to pay their employees that much more all you get is further unemployment because businesses can now not afford to either hire as many people, or work their employees as much (less hours, etc). The alternative is to raise prices of their good or service but that isn't really viable since customers as less willing to pay for something when you just hike the prices and will find what they want elsewhere (this is especially true for food services). [/QUOTE] Economic theory is just that. Theory. The logic that supports that view is the same logic used by some economists to advocate absolute free market, no price control, no taxes and no regulation. Something more modern and less idealistic would be arguing that increase in minimum wage gives people more disposable income, which they spend, stimulating growth and the economy. Be prepared for a change in your field. Conventional supply and demand theories won't hold up with the changes coming in the next few decades. [editline]4th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;49244908]Nobody on Facepunch is going to listen or care about your opinion, as much as I agree with you. Arguing against the left is really, really pointless on a website such as FP.[/QUOTE] them pesky pinko green red commie lefties. always wrong about everything. just gotta stop being poor and stop leeching off the state... grumble grumble.. sweat of your brow... bootstraps... self regulating market... welfare state destroying my... grumble grumble... left sjw grumble grumble mexican socialists destroying the good honest american rail companies poor hard working john galt grumble grumble

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49244936]Economic theory is just that. Theory. The logic that supports that view is the same logic used by some economists to advocate absolute free market, no price control, no taxes and no regulation. Something more modern and less idealistic would be arguing that increase in minimum wage gives people more disposable income, which they spend, stimulating growth and the economy. Be prepared for a change in your field. Conventional supply and demand theories won't hold up with the changes coming in the next few decades.[/QUOTE] Gravity is also a theory, so it must be less valid right? I'm well aware that higher wages would lead you to think more money to spend and all that, but there is a price to pay for that, pun may or may not be intended. I'm know this is may be considered anecdotal but it is at least a real life example. I currently work part-time as a sushi chef and I get paid minimum, last week I asked my boss who is also the owner of the restaurant what would happen if he now had to pay all the employees 14 or 15 per hour. His response was that he'd need to fire about the third of the staff and the remaining would possibly now have to do multiple jobs (servers now bussing their tables now or bus boys also having to wash dishes), and obviously he can't raise sushi prices to compensate because a lot of people will be less inclined to buy a 20$ sushi roll. What I'm saying can be found in economic textbooks, not even high level ones, but higher wages means more unemployment.

[QUOTE=wystan;49244983]but higher wages means more unemployment.[/QUOTE] Keynes believed in people working to earn money then spending that money to stimulate the economy. In The Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren he predicted we would be working 15 hour weeks. Those 2 things together means he expected people to work 15 hour weeks and still earn enough to have a disposable income enough to fuel the economy. His argument for this is that as we get more automated we become more efficient and more productive, so he linked productivity to compensation for time. In simple terms productivity goes up, pay goes up, hours go down. All good so far? Around the 80s (thatcher might be idolised by right wingers but she was was pretty shitty) that connection between compensation and productivity ceased. So productivity went up and pay stayed the same, that money is no longer going to the consumers letting them consume more, bad for the economy. [t]http://www.foreconomicjustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ib330-productivity-vs-compensation.png[/t] The free market failed to self regulate and balance. Its time for the government to step in and force companies to steadily increase their compensation, once its balances they can step back and hope that we can get back on track to high productivity, high efficiency, high pay. Im left wing but I understand and appreciate the arguments put forward by right wingers. I don't like capitalism but I understand it is here to stay for the next century or so, if it is to stay we should do our best to make it the best kind of capitalism, the kind that brings the best quality of life for everyone involved, the one which is most efficient and the one which is most sustainable (less money to the consumer means less money going back into the system leading to de-stability). for these reasons I've tried to be objective in this argument and appealed to arguments and themes you might appreciate (Keynesian economics)

[QUOTE=wystan;49242963]Bernie Sanders is the worst option for president. His economic ideas lack any foresight everything he does is just "feel good" policies. Raising the minimum wage to 14$, are you kidding me? I would never tell someone who to vote for, but I will certainly advise anyone to not vote for this guy, literally anyone besides him is a better option.[/QUOTE] Have you seen literally everyone else besides him, Hillary is also going to raise the minimum wage, and everybody else is Donald Trump or Carson, the latter of which believes our tax code should be based on biblical tithing, and the former who pledges to eliminate the IRS and somehow still collect taxes The republicans are promising to their insane neocon base that they will radically alter our tax code, which most propose tax plans that aren't even revanue neutral, some propose plans that would require massive government cuts, and they all plan on ending every possible regulation they can. The republicans are bad for the economy, they want to kick the whole thing over because its Obama's economy right now. I can't see anyone on the right doing anything but nosediving the economy because of their hard core beliefs in absolute free market system

[QUOTE=bisousbisous;49244139]America want's someone who isn't afraid to say what needs to be said, someone who speaks their mind. Trump will win 2016.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if you're trolling, but assuming you aren't … what exactly does Trump say that needs to be said? Because I certainly don't think putting walls up or registering muslims is stuff that needs to be said out loud or even considered. Furthermore, this guy ran his own business into bankruptcy several times. That doesn't sound like somebody you want in charge of a capitalistic land of the free, right? Please tell me if and how you disagree because I'm legitimately confused by anyone wanting Trump as President just because he 'speaks his mind', 'cus Bernie does that, too, whether you agree with him or not.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49244936] them pesky pinko green red commie lefties. always wrong about everything. just gotta stop being poor and stop leeching off the state... grumble grumble.. sweat of your brow... bootstraps... self regulating market... welfare state destroying my... grumble grumble... left sjw grumble grumble mexican socialists destroying the good honest american rail companies poor hard working john galt grumble grumble[/QUOTE] Case in point, lmfao. Also if you really wanted to try you should have at least googled something related to Canada instead of assuming I'm some insane republican.

[QUOTE=Selek;49245046]I'm not sure if you're trolling, but assuming you aren't … what exactly does Trump say that needs to be said? Because I certainly don't think putting walls up or registering muslims is stuff that needs to be said out loud or even considered. Furthermore, this guy ran his own business into bankruptcy several times. That doesn't sound like somebody you want in charge of a capitalistic land of the free, right? Please tell me if and how you disagree because I'm legitimately confused by anyone wanting Trump as President just because he 'speaks his mind', 'cus Bernie does that, too, whether you agree with him or not.[/QUOTE] Im assuming he's parodying people. I hear exactly what he said all the time, the "trump is an honest politician" thing. People confuse lack of tact with complete honesty, so he appeals to these people, the ones with very little knowledge of politics but watch lots of TV.

Fuck the status quo, I want this guy to run America. Smarten up America.

-snip-

If we get a $15 minimum wage I better start fucking making $18-19/hr because two years of vocational to make $13 when the minimum wage is around 8.20 in NJ only for some schmuck to come in to raise it and suddenly those two years were all for nothing? Shit the median income for my trade is $23/hr for a licensed journeyman, and even then by current standards I'm not worth $15 yet.

Minimum wage is a shitty system anyways, this is what unions should be for and fix. Minimum wage is based on a system in which you are payed in a currency that's value is constantly in flux, meaning that it's non-constant in value. When you increase minimum wage, you upset the system depending on how drastic the increase, causing inflation/fluctuation to match the new wage. And when you increase minimum wage, you increase the number of people who are unemployable simply because employers can NOT pay people that much money to do some specific grunt work job and be competitive with larger organizations that can run on thinner margins. When you increase minimum wage you increase unemployment rates. You also fuck with people like poster above who currently make above minimum wage, and will then be making bottom-of-the-barrel income like everyone else even if they're doing a more experience/skill oriented job that should pay more than a burger flipper. It's a dumb fuck system that tries to solve a problem that should be left to workers unions.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49239182]I'm not happy with any of the Presidential prospects. Sigh.[/QUOTE] You just didn't pay attention to US history or you'd realize we very rarely get a president who can do foreign and domestic well. We always end up with a president who does well domestically and horribly in the foreign sphere or well in the foreign sphere and horribly in the domestic sphere. [editline]4th December 2015[/editline] Also, the same people who argue about unemployment ignore the fact that a living wage includes housing others like a significant other. So even if more people are unemployed, the increase in minimum wage means they can support more people. Also Unions won't do jackshit because so many companies(illegally) scare workers into not joining unions.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;49245065]Case in point, lmfao. Also if you really wanted to try you should have at least googled something related to Canada instead of assuming I'm some insane republican.[/QUOTE] The so called "Left" has not ruined this country.

[QUOTE=Swilly;49246092]Also, the same people who argue about unemployment ignore the fact that a living wage includes housing others like a significant other. So even if more people are unemployed, the increase in minimum wage means they can support more people. Also Unions won't do jackshit because so many companies(illegally) scare workers into not joining unions.[/QUOTE] Unemployment is Unemployment, When you make people unemployable by raising the amount burger flippers and other no skill entry level jobs make you increase inflation, Theoretically you could support more people, if the dollar's value was constant, but it's not. Currency is generally best thought of as a way of converting total work hours into goods, the more work hours it requires to obtain something, the more expensive that good. The more expensive it is to pay workers for those hours, the more expensive the good. If it takes a 10 hours to pick 1000 apples, 40 hours to transport them to the final location of sale on average, and 3 work hours to make those 1000 apples ready for sale, then per apple it takes approximately 3.18 work minutes of work effort per hour to get each apple available for customer consumption. Every time you increase how much it costs an employer to provide those work hours to get that good available for purchase, you increase how much that good costs. This is Inflation, Inflation is undesirable. Goods will ALWAYS adjust in price to account for how much workers are payed to provide that good, this is how pricing works, at least before mark-ups, which are what pay for wages and other expenses in the first place. When you increase minimum wage, you upset the economy, cause inflation (decrease the value of the currency/dollar), make people who made inbetween the old and new minimum wage unhappy, and make less workers employable. It's a shit system. If companies illegally scare workers into not joining unions then they should be brought into a class-action lawsuit. The fact that employers can do that is a sign that our system is fucked up because small businesses can't afford to stay in business anymore to compete with big businesses and force them to offer competitive wages. It's a LOT more complicated than "Higher wages = better for work force". Also since when the fuck was "Minimum" wage supposed to mean "Living" wage? Especially for multiple people on a single minimum wage? that's ridiculous and that kind of thinking is what's causing our unemployment crisis.

^ McDonald's is not an entry level job You have no career path there, they intend to work you until you slip up then they fire you, the same is with most retail jobs out there. They do not sustain the economy nor do they even break even, with places like Walmart acknowledging and encouraging their poorly paid workers to take out government welfare programs. Minimum wage is supposed to ensure that someone can live off of that wage at the average hours and not have to takeout government welfare programs.

I don't expect for someone working at McDonalds to be able to support themselves, a home, and a family. They should be able to afford an apartment for themselves, or live with room-mates to help support the costs to increase the available cash each room mate has available. McDonalds is not something that should be considered anything beyond "surviving" in terms of your career, it's the beginning, it lets you get on your feet until you can find something better or pay for your housing while you go to college (Payed for by family or loans/scholarships). The concept that someone working a shit job at McDonalds should be able to afford housing for a family, on that wage alone, is ludicrously off base, it's people who work at McDonalds and are TRYING to support a family off that alone that have to take money out of government welfare programs, because it's unreasonable for everyone working that job to be payed enough to do that.

[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;49244908]Nobody on Facepunch is going to listen or care about your opinion, as much as I agree with you. Arguing against the left is really, really pointless on a website such as FP.[/QUOTE] lmao 90% of SH is threads about how immigration is destroying europe and how pc sjws are ruining america

[QUOTE=soulharvester;49246342]I don't expect for someone working at McDonalds to be able to support themselves, a home, and a family. They should be able to afford an apartment for themselves, or live with room-mates to help support the costs to increase the available cash each room mate has available. McDonalds is not something that should be considered anything beyond "surviving" in terms of your career, it's the beginning, it lets you get on your feet until you can find something better or pay for your housing while you go to college (Payed for by family or loans/scholarships). The concept that someone working a shit job at McDonalds should be able to afford housing for a family, on that wage alone, is ludicrously off base, it's people who work at McDonalds and are TRYING to support a family off that alone that have to take money out of government welfare programs, because it's unreasonable for everyone working that job to be payed enough to do that.[/QUOTE] If you worked mcdonalds here, even full time, you won't be able to afford an apartment. You will be splitting a one bedroom. Some people get stuck doing lower level jobs because they lack the ability to make advancements, sometimes things just go wrong. Missing rent can lead to losing a roof over your head, and that can be a really hard issue to fix without a better income.

15 dollars an hour is simply too much, if I were an employer I would seriously consider either reducing hours, reducing amount of workers, or switching to more automated methods. I'll even agree to 10.10 or 12.12, but 15 dollars an hour is like punching small-medium size businesses in the face, this is particularly the case for[URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/"] restaurants[/URL]. This also gives larger companies the motive to produce [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/minimum-wage-offensive-could-speed-arrival-of-robot-powered-restaurants/2015/08/16/35f284ea-3f6f-11e5-8d45-d815146f81fa_story.html"]robot replacements[/URL] for more and more advanced jobs.

[QUOTE=Swilly;49246092] Also Unions won't do jackshit because so many companies(illegally) scare workers into not joining unions.[/QUOTE] Friend of mine works at Wal-Mart, he tells me that they have a team of lawyers ready to fly to any Wal-Mart at any given time in the event that anyone dare mutters the word "unionize".

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;49246399]lmao 90% of SH is threads about how immigration is destroying europe and how pc sjws are ruining america[/QUOTE] It's generally the people who are far onto one side of the political spectrum that think that facepunch is either far-right or far-left. Facepunch leans left (Well, from an american standpoint it leans left) but it's pretty centered for the most part.

[QUOTE=Incoming.;49246411]15 dollars an hour is simply too much, if I were an employer I would seriously consider either reducing hours, reducing amount of workers, or switching to more automated methods. I'll even agree to 10.10 or 12.12, but 15 dollars an hour is like punching small-medium size businesses in the face, this is particularly the case for[URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/"] restaurants[/URL]. This also gives larger companies the motive to produce [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/minimum-wage-offensive-could-speed-arrival-of-robot-powered-restaurants/2015/08/16/35f284ea-3f6f-11e5-8d45-d815146f81fa_story.html"]robot replacements[/URL] for more and more advanced jobs.[/QUOTE] I believe pretty strongly Bernie picked 15 as a way to bargain for a more reasonable number when he actually has to battle congress tooth and nail to get it up even to 10.00 nationally.

[QUOTE=soulharvester;49246438]It's generally the people who are far onto one side of the political spectrum that think that facepunch is either far-right or far-left. Facepunch leans left (Well, from an american standpoint it leans left) but it's pretty centered for the most part.[/QUOTE] The average leans left, but I see plenty of far extremes.

[QUOTE=Incoming.;49246411]15 dollars an hour is simply too much, if I were an employer I would seriously consider either reducing hours, reducing amount of workers, or switching to more automated methods. I'll even agree to 10.10 or 12.12, but 15 dollars an hour is like punching small-medium size businesses in the face, this is particularly the case for[URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/"] restaurants[/URL]. This also gives larger companies the motive to produce [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/minimum-wage-offensive-could-speed-arrival-of-robot-powered-restaurants/2015/08/16/35f284ea-3f6f-11e5-8d45-d815146f81fa_story.html"]robot replacements[/URL] for more and more advanced jobs.[/QUOTE] All jobs will be replaced with robots in time, what then? How do you determine the "value" of a human being? Better yet, WHY are you determining the "value" of a human being?

Hillary seems like Mitt Romney in the way that she keeps changing her opinion when the poll opinions change on things.

[QUOTE=Incoming.;49246411]15 dollars an hour is simply too much, if I were an employer I would seriously consider either reducing hours, reducing amount of workers, or switching to more automated methods. I'll even agree to 10.10 or 12.12, but 15 dollars an hour is like punching small-medium size businesses in the face, this is particularly the case for[URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/"] restaurants[/URL]. This also gives larger companies the motive to produce [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/minimum-wage-offensive-could-speed-arrival-of-robot-powered-restaurants/2015/08/16/35f284ea-3f6f-11e5-8d45-d815146f81fa_story.html"]robot replacements[/URL] for more and more advanced jobs.[/QUOTE] I argued this a while ago in a thread about automated cars and the effect on truckers. I do not understand why automation is viewed as a bad thing? Efficiency has never been a bad thing, nor has it every been a limitation. So why should we use efficiency as an artificial limit now? If you can wash and dry dishes and do so solely automated, then cut the dishwasher boys, they don't have value anymore. Same thing with public transport drivers in the near future. Eventually bankers, clerks, and almost everyone else whose job involves them providing information to a machine.