Notch: “If someone copies your game a trillion times, you won’t have a single lost sale” - Polidicks

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;35047037]Maybe companies should stop making overpriced, overhyped, buggy shit. The amount of shit releases has been so high recently that consumers need to have a way to protect themselves and try before they buy. Companies should just drop the DRM that does nothing but punish consumers. Make games with actual innovation and replay value, or that are appropriately priced. Make games more easily accessible without having to jump through hoops (I will never buy an Origin game)[/QUOTE] Then don't buy them. That would show those companies those games aren't worth playing. Surely there's no reason for you to pirate a game with no replay value or innovation. Maybe those games just aren't for you? You're right, a way to 'try before you buy' would be great. Why don't you advocate that fact? Companies would much rather spend millions on an effective deterrent to piracy than what they have now. The problem is that they really are in uncharted territory. How can they protect their product? They haven't answered it yet, so they are going with the whatever technologies they can come up with. They aren't going to halt production until a true anti-piracy solution can be found, there wouldn't be any games to play, and no money would be made, That's why you end up with some of the most buggiest and ineffeciant DRM bullshit on the planet, it's all they can do right now. Oh, and you lost me on the origin thing. I do believe that Origin requires the same amount of hoops as STEAM, which I know you use from the icon under your Avatar.

[QUOTE=SilentOpp;35047000]Just because there's a difference between the composition of a physical and digital product, does [U]not[/U] erase the fact that it is still a product. There are countries where you can get away with human rights abuses, murder, slavery, theft all kinds of things on a small scale. Everything from breach of contracts(which surprise, may not hurt anyone), to denial of human life. Just because you can't be prosecuted doesn't make it right. And what rewards are you honestly suggesting? Pirates are crafty, they do anything to get the full experience on their pirated copy. They obtain DLC, bypass online multiplayer protection, mess with pretty much every benefit that has ever been given. Even STEAM can't offer a real 'benefit' over the pirated copy, not worth the pricetag as a whole(which, by what you are saying, I should be paying for the 'benefits', not the game itself).[/QUOTE] For most people, it's not worth the effort to pirate a steam exclusive game when there is a risk of your ACTUAL steam account being confiscated. No, you should pay for the game, but paying for it should give you a reward. People have done this properly. And what are YOU suggesting? I'm not suggesting anything other than "stop fucking with me as a paying customer" and "stop fucking with me in general". Oh, so, you're going to take that argument? Really? You were implying that if it was legal, it would be horribly out of control and a giant threat to the system, my reply had nothing to do with whether it was right or wrong or what laws said about it, just what effect the laws had and what it really means. Yes, there's a difference in the compositions of them, way to not understand my argument. It's a product. Yes. It had various levels of effort put into it's creation and it should still be payed for. I'm not debating that piracy is right or wrong or that it is a negative influence, it is. But what I'm asking is, what's enough to stop it? Can you stop it? Will stopping it hamper someone who isn't pirating? Or is it better to go with a rewards program and find a way(you know, INVENT something, that's what innovation is about) to reward people for buying it and not for stealing it. Sure, not easy but so what.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35046981]Perhaps, but maybe more sales could be had at a lower price point? Yes, let them set their own sales terms, I don't see people saying not, just saying that DRM will drive away sales, which is proven to happen. Most companies have not changed their minds on price points and still believe a higher one will result in more sales and more profit. Many companies have proven that this not always the case. Yes more money is spent on these things than ever, but the [b]reigning[/b] cost in almost all mainstream entertainment is [u]advertising[/u].[/quote] yes okay, so they spent money advertising it, that doesn't make it any less wrong to pirate, if anything more so [quote]Don't make analogies.[/QUOTE] Oh I apologize, I forgot we have to by default treat piracy as "not theft".

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;35047124]yes okay, so they spent money advertising it, that doesn't make it any less wrong to pirate, if anything more so Oh I apologize, I forgot we have to by default treat piracy as "not theft".[/QUOTE] Well you seem to be talking like they need to pass the buck onto us, when they don't and there are other methods. How the hell does it make it "More so"? How does that affect that at ALL? You really don't seem to be getting my point which is "costs can be recouped elsewhere". That should not be hard to get out of that statement. It should not be hard to note that advertising campaigns are far too large and far too expensive these days. But nah, i'm mildly "defending" piracy so I'm a bad guy It isn't clear cut theft no matter how much you want to make it that way. It's much murkier than that. Also, why advertise in such a manner when pouring that money INTO the game or product will make it sell better anyways?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35047110]For most people, it's not worth the effort to pirate a steam exclusive game when there is a risk of your ACTUAL steam account being confiscated. No, you should pay for the game, but paying for it should give you a reward. People have done this properly. And what are YOU suggesting? I'm not suggesting anything other than "stop fucking with me as a paying customer" and "stop fucking with me in general". Oh, so, you're going to take that argument? Really? You were implying that if it was legal, it would be horribly out of control and a giant threat to the system, my reply had nothing to do with whether it was right or wrong or what laws said about it, just what effect the laws had and what it really means. Yes, there's a difference in the compositions of them, way to not understand my argument. It's a product. Yes. It had various levels of effort put into it's creation and it should still be payed for. I'm not debating that piracy is right or wrong or that it is a negative influence, it is. But what I'm asking is, what's enough to stop it? Can you stop it? Will stopping it hamper someone who isn't pirating? Or is it better to go with a rewards program and find a way(you know, INVENT something, that's what innovation is about) to reward people for buying it and not for stealing it. Sure, not easy but so what.[/QUOTE] You act like Piracy is the result of DRM, when in reality, the opposite is true. Do not blame software companies for doing what they can to protect their programs, blame pirates. There's no reason to justify their actions. it is, in the most basic form, theft. Notch obviously feels that this is okay. Obviously, saying that the composition of the product doesn't affect the analogy was the point I was trying to get across. If you could answer your own questions, we could stop piracy. I'm not saying I have the answers. I am saying Notch is completely wrong. I am saying that piracy is wrong, and that it can't be justified. Telling companies to create 'benefits' isn't right either. They want you to pay for the game they made, not create a game, let it out in the wild, and then create 'benefits' that you will be paying for. That's a little ridiculous. it isn't easy, why do you expect game companies to have the answer? We have tons of problems in the world, telling people to 'shut up and innovate' isn't the fast track solution for those either, that's why we do the best we can, with what we can.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35047147]Well you seem to be talking like they need to pass the buck onto us, when they don't and there are other methods. How the hell does it make it "More so"? How does that affect that at ALL? You really don't seem to be getting my point which is "costs can be recouped elsewhere". That should not be hard to get out of that statement. It should not be hard to note that advertising campaigns are far too large and far too expensive these days. But nah, i'm mildly "defending" piracy so I'm a bad guy It isn't clear cut theft no matter how much you want to make it that way. It's much murkier than that. Also, why advertise in such a manner when pouring that money INTO the game or product will make it sell better anyways?[/QUOTE] I can say the companies are acting unwisely without condoning piracy in any way. I'll only condone piracy when it something that no attempt is being made to sell anymore (like a PS1 game or something). I believe that the more a company has spent on a game (wisely or not) the more they depend on your sales to make the cut.

[QUOTE=SilentOpp;35047194]You act like Piracy is the result of DRM, when in reality, the opposite is true. Do not blame software companies for doing what they can to protect their programs, blame pirates. There's no reason to justify their actions. it is, in the most basic form, theft. Notch obviously feels that this is okay. Obviously, saying that the composition of the product doesn't affect the analogy was the point I was trying to get across. If you could answer your own questions, we could stop piracy. I'm not saying I have the answers. I am saying Notch is completely wrong. I am saying that piracy is wrong, and that it can't be justified. Telling companies to create 'benefits' isn't right either. They want you to pay for the game they made, not create a game, let it out in the wild, and then create 'benefits' that you will be paying for. That's a little ridiculous. it isn't easy, why do you expect game companies to have the answer? We have tons of problems in the world, telling people to 'shut up and innovate' isn't the fast track solution for those either, that's why we do the best we can, with what we can.[/QUOTE] So that's fucking the customer up the ass? Okay. Note taken. And you didn't get the point I was trying to get across. You're not going to stop piracy unless you destroy ordinary customers on the way.

Honestly like Gabe said, F2P is the future. That would kill piracy off almost completely.

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;35047231]I can say the companies are acting unwisely without condoning piracy in any way. I'll only condone piracy when it something that no attempt is being made to sell anymore (like a PS1 game or something). I believe that the more a company has spent on a game (wisely or not) the more they depend on your sales to make the cut.[/QUOTE] If they've done something badly, they deserve to fail. That's how it works in a business world.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35047280]If they've done something badly, they deserve to fail. That's how it works in a business world.[/QUOTE] Okay, so let them, but through pirating their goods I [editline]8th March 2012[/editline] believe you are stealing.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35047252]So that's fucking the customer up the ass? Okay. Note taken. And you didn't get the point I was trying to get across. You're not going to stop piracy unless you destroy ordinary customers on the way.[/QUOTE] That isnt true. When you go after the pirates instead of focusing on the game's protection, you do damage that doesnt affect the consumer. Thats a whole different topic altogether..

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;35047288]Okay, so let them, but through pirating their goods I [editline]8th March 2012[/editline] believe you are stealing.[/QUOTE] Never said I pirated or supported piracy.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;35047361]Never said I pirated or supported piracy.[/QUOTE] I meant to direct that not at you specifically, but to anyone who does pirate, I don't know if you do or don't. I'm sorry.

[QUOTE=SilentOpp;35047320]That isnt true. When you go after the pirates instead of focusing on the game's protection, you do damage that doesnt affect the consumer. Thats a whole different topic altogether..[/QUOTE] How? The few, very few methods of DRM I know of that have worked to this day are Crysis Warheads "Chicken gun" and the games that emulated that DRM method really. Every other method of DRM I've encountered I've found intrusive and to be in my way more often than helping me. Knowing people who pirated games I'd bought play them with less hassle makes me less appreciative of being dicked around.

[QUOTE=SilentOpp;35047194]You act like Piracy is the result of DRM, when in reality, the opposite is true. Do not blame software companies for doing what they can to protect their programs, blame pirates. There's no reason to justify their actions. it is, in the most basic form, theft. Notch obviously feels that this is okay. Obviously, saying that the composition of the product doesn't affect the analogy was the point I was trying to get across. If you could answer your own questions, we could stop piracy. I'm not saying I have the answers. I am saying Notch is completely wrong. I am saying that piracy is wrong, and that it can't be justified. Telling companies to create 'benefits' isn't right either. They want you to pay for the game they made, not create a game, let it out in the wild, and then create 'benefits' that you will be paying for. That's a little ridiculous. it isn't easy, why do you expect game companies to have the answer? We have tons of problems in the world, telling people to 'shut up and innovate' isn't the fast track solution for those either, that's why we do the best we can, with what we can.[/QUOTE] Still, DRM causes even more piracy than there was before, because it is so much simpler to just run pirated game than going through the tedious and ridiculous DRM procedure every launch. And that protection still gets cracked in less than a day most of times. Developers obviously took step in a wrong direction(DRM makes life harder for legal customers, not pirates), and that indeed was inteded as a measure against pirates. But hey, they could come up with something better than that DRM that we have now. It's completely their fault that they lost sales due to piracy, as they created slow, inefficient and complete opposite of easy-to-use concept of protection. Developers brought that on themselves. The actual piracy increase was caused as a reaction to that kind of protection. Your point is invalid. You can not stop piracy by force, filtering, trial courts or complete internet lockdown. People will still find a way to share the information, by radio or by interchanging HDDs. And aside with that, creating benefits for legal customers is a proven strategy. It is cheap, it does work, and it works better than any other way suggested. So you're saying that Notch and everyone are completely wrong? What does lead you to a such conclusion? You must be having more efficient plan on how to stop piracy... Oh, wait, you're not. So all your point of view is NOT based on some good method that could resolve the conflict. You don't have the solution, and this makes you simply another man who likes to argue but has nothing better to suggest. Arguing with you won't lead to anything productive. 2 Everyone else in thread: I'm pretty sure that Notch does not even need a PR. Community does that for him, and that proves that his product was successful as fuck, so he has all the rights to talk about piracy in any way he feels like. He simply does not need to lie about his point of view. I agree with opinion that most, I repeat, MOST pirates will either try the product out and then buy it/stop playing it. The amount of actual lost sales is relatively small compared to the game sales, as most of people who pirated game(for a long-term use, not just for trying out) wouldn't be able to buy it anyway. That can not be counted as a lost sale because the developer wouldn't get money either way.

Or before buying a game you could look at reviews of people like totalbiscuit or other's in order to see if the game is worthy, you dont have to pirate the game in order to take a look you neither need to buy it there is a reason we have review videos etc.

[QUOTE=Strikebango;35048155]Or before buying a game you could look at reviews of people like totalbiscuit or other's in order to see if the game is worthy, you dont have to pirate the game in order to take a look you neither need to buy it there is a reason we have review videos etc.[/QUOTE] Because the reviewer have the completely same mindset and preferences as me :downs: Bring back decent demo's and shareware versions, and not the 5 minutes bullshit they were reduced to before they were practically killed.

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;35047288]Okay, so let them, but through pirating their goods I [editline]8th March 2012[/editline] believe you are stealing.[/QUOTE] It's no more stealing than loaning a game to someone is stealing. I think it's fairly silly to believe that companies don't lose money from piracy, since they almost definitely do, however something shouldn't be illegal just because a company loses money from it. Second hand sales lose companies money, should they also be made illegal? Should fixing something so you don't have to buy a new one be illegal because the company wont make money out of selling you a new copy?

When I pirate, it's only to check whether or not the game is something for me, it's not to complete everything there is to the game, to move on to the next. I saved myself from buying some stupid games, and I bought Starcraft 2 after playing it pirated for a few hours.

I went on my Xbox today, and the first like, 5 top downloads for indie titles are all Minecraft clones :v:

Okay, so what if you're a tax accountant. Someone comes in, you do their taxes, and you send a bill. They never pay you. What's wrong? I mean, nothing was stolen.

Rather than putting in laws that totally violate people's right to privacy, they should update their archaic business methods to work with the internet rather than fighting it. Look at Steam/Valve, they have somewhat fairly priced goods, offer a brilliant service, have regular sales and Valve put very very affordable prices on their games (£25 for Orange box) They are rolling in it and one of the most successful and fastest growing companies I have ever seen. I do not see why someone would want to pay more than it would cost for a cinema ticket for a DVD of a film, and in some cases more than it would for some snacks + a ticket, and they are making a 1000% profit on it. What this comes down to is greed, consumers are getting smarter and even the average joe knows how to use a torrent client now, yet the big companies arent willing to update their practices and entice customers with better offers. They would rather have people throw in jail and fined massively so they can keep selling their overpriced products. Also on the point of 'if its such a bad product then dont download it anyway', I dont think that is so much the idea, its the fact that they are attempting to sell products at way way way more than what people would consider them worth.

I pirated minecraft at first out of curiosity. I then went on to buy it for myself and my brother, and I've also bought Cobalt (which I wouldn't have heard about through pirating Minecraft in the first place).

[QUOTE=SilentOpp;35047194]You act like Piracy is the result of DRM, when in reality, the opposite is true. Do not blame software companies for doing what they can to protect their programs, blame pirates. There's no reason to justify their actions. it is, in the most basic form, theft. Notch obviously feels that this is okay. Obviously, saying that the composition of the product doesn't affect the analogy was the point I was trying to get across. If you could answer your own questions, we could stop piracy. I'm not saying I have the answers. I am saying Notch is completely wrong. I am saying that piracy is wrong, and that it can't be justified. Telling companies to create 'benefits' isn't right either. They want you to pay for the game they made, not create a game, let it out in the wild, and then create 'benefits' that you will be paying for. That's a little ridiculous. it isn't easy, why do you expect game companies to have the answer? We have tons of problems in the world, telling people to 'shut up and innovate' isn't the fast track solution for those either, that's why we do the best we can, with what we can.[/QUOTE] Piracy isn't the result of DRM but the increase of piracy is. Your claim might have been correct a couple of years ago. Piracy started off as a bad thing however I believe it is turning into something good. DRM is bad because piracy is unstoppable, companies are forced to innovate if they want more customers, and they should. In an attempt to justify piracy I would say that it is showing companies to adapt to the ever evolving digital age. If I want to buy a game, why should I go through the trouble of travel to buy or order and wait when I can easily download something with a couple of clicks and also skip DRM completely. They should innovate and they should figure out a way to work around the problem of piracy, they shouldn't put out limitations and force people to go through annoying procedures that will eventually lead people to pirating instead. Why should they have answers? Because it's their problem not ours. Steam is one of the greatest examples of figuring out a solution to prevent piracy, I have bought way more games on steam then I have ever pirated them.

Here, I'll solve everyone's problem right now. Give all games a demo for people to try out before they buy it. For the pirates, use an in game DRM that fucks with only the pirates. I believe Serious Sam 3 had an invincible pink scorpion stalking you or something like that? Seriously, how hard is it to do something like that?

[QUOTE=Solo Wing;35049895] I believe Serious Sam 3 had an invincible pink scorpion stalking you or something like that? Seriously, how hard is it to do something like that?[/QUOTE] That is a more non-invasive DRM, but they are always patched anyway.

You know you really have to redefine what exactly a pirate is. Everybody talks about people pirating to try and then buying but arguably they are no longer a pirate of that game. What i'm trying to say is that a pirate is someone who gets something for nothing, and by that definition, there really should be nobody except pirates trying to defend themselves. Pirates help nobody but themselves, it's a bizarre sense of self entitlement that shouldn't be encouraged. I kind of think that the "lost sales" blabla argument is flawed or at the least misguided. People who argue for no drm, demos/better accessibility for trying, and to stop fucking with the people who pay are using it to further their arguments whereas in my opinion those arguments fully stand up on their own, and being pro piracy in some way is actually contradictory to their goals. For example I am completely anti drm etc but I am also anti pirate. The two don't have to align. That's just how I feel now. My opinion is always changing..

[QUOTE=Philly c;35050085] I kind of think that the "lost sales" blabla argument is flawed or at the least misguided. People who argue for no drm, demos/better accessibility for trying, and to stop fucking with the people who pay are using it to further their arguments whereas in my opinion those arguments fully stand up on their own, and being pro piracy in some way is actually contradictory to their goals. For example I am completely anti drm etc but I am also anti pirate. The two don't have to align.[/QUOTE] The lost sales thing isn't so much a justification for piracy, its a counter argument because the big media companies are trying to get stuff like SOPA pushed through with the argument that pirates are directly costing them money and jobs. Also in many cases DRM does increase piracy. Just look at Ubisofts ridiculous invasive DRM that causes endless problems for the people that pay for the game, yet its patched by pirates on day one so its just the paying customers that get screwed over. My brother was going to buy Anno 2070 right up until the point he heard that the game would only allow a few activations and that pretty much any hardware change would trigger and activation

[quote]The dev has also mentioned that pirates can be converted into paying customers if treated appropriately.[/quote] It worked for Winamp. I used to pirate that every 6 or so months until one day I realised that they provide me with such a great program that I've used pretty much since I got my own first computer and that it doesn't even cost much for a licensed copy and that way I get all the proper features, updates and support. And as far as pirating games goes, I haven't done that in a long time due to Steam being so accessible. [editline]8th March 2012[/editline] As Gabe said, it's just a matter of providing a good service (or something like that).

[QUOTE=Cushie;35050153]Also in many cases DRM does increase piracy. Just look at Ubisofts ridiculous invasive DRM that causes endless problems for the people that pay for the game, yet its patched by pirates on day one so its just the paying customers that get screwed over. My brother was going to buy Anno 2070 right up until the point he heard that the game would only allow a few activations and that pretty much any hardware change would trigger and activation[/QUOTE] Not sure if this is targetted at me but you don't need to tell me this. DRM is bullshit, no doubt.