• Michigan cop shot 5 times tells off judge
    336 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799344]cool, provide some documentation to back up your claims.[/QUOTE] I will when you give me your social security number. I'm not going to give you a copy of a personal, private document just to satiate your fucking e-rage. You can believe me or you can choose not to. After demonstrating what would be an unreasonably deep understanding of the American legal system for a simple layman, most people tend to at very least accept I have had [I]some[/I] form of formal education on the subject. [editline]2nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=BusterBluth;35799350]The person Lankist was responding too suggested that 14 years in prison in comparison to the ending of a life is not a long term. Lankist responded by using the example of blowing up the gas station which didn't make any sense and I responding by saying that there is a difference in an accident and a purposeful action. I wasn't arguing anything to do with law.[/QUOTE] The example of blowing up the gas station was to highlight the absurdity of charging an individual based upon what might have happened. Once you open that gate, you can pile on an unreasonable amount of charges.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799376]I will when you give me your social security number. I'm not going to give you a copy of a personal, private document just to satiate your fucking e-rage. You can believe me or you can choose not to. After demonstrating an unreasonably deep understanding of the American legal system, most people tend to at very least accept I have had [I]some[/I] form of formal education on the subject.[/QUOTE] um, that's not how it works. if you claim that you have a legal background, and then not provide any documentation/proof, then your assertions hold no credence.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799319] You do realize that matching attempted murder charges to murder charges would make criminals say "you know what, fuck it, I'm going away for the same amount of time anyway, might as well get rid of the witness!" We charge attempted murder less than actual murder because no fucking murder took place, pal. Matching the sentences would encourage murder once a crime had already been committed and would completely devalue the crime of murder as it stands.[/QUOTE] That makes no sense. If you are trying to murder someone you are trying to murder them. You wouldn't say "you know what, fuck it, I'm going away for the same amount of time anyway, might as well get rid of the witness!" because you trying to kill them is the crime they are witnessing.
The dabate should not be over attempted = murder. It really shouldn't be debated at all.. attempted [I]should[/I] have a lesser sentence then full-blown murder. However, 14-25 years is not enough.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799410]um, that's not how it works. if you claim that you have a legal background, and then not provide any documentation/proof, then your assertions hold no credence.[/QUOTE] Post your birth certificate, then, if it's no biggie.
[QUOTE=areolop;35799435]The dabate should not be over attempted = murder. It really shouldn't be debated at all.. attempted [I]should[/I] have a lesser sentence then full-blown murder. However, 14-25 years is not enough.[/QUOTE] how many years is "enough"?
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;35799414]That makes no sense. If you are trying to murder someone you are trying to murder them. You wouldn't say "you know what, fuck it, I'm going away for the same amount of time anyway, might as well get rid of the witness!" because you trying to kill them is the crime they are witnessing.[/QUOTE] But if you already did enough to earn attempted murder charges (i.e. shooting (at) them), your crimes are solidified and there's absolutely no legal reason NOT to kill the victim.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799319]And you're completely qualified in terms of legal expertise to completely understand the ramifications of such a broad alteration to our judicial process. You do realize that matching attempted murder charges to murder charges would make criminals say "you know what, fuck it, I'm going away for the same amount of time anyway, might as well get rid of the witness!" We charge attempted murder less than actual murder because no fucking murder took place, pal. Matching the sentences would encourage murder once a crime had already been committed and would completely devalue the crime of murder as it stands.[/QUOTE] If someone was willing to hold a gun to a cops head and then shoot them 5 times I doubt they were thinking of jail and I doubt they would be too bothered about shooting a witness if they got round to it , I'm pretty sure they would have said 'fuck it' a long time before it comes to that too. In this case it was a split second act that was the difference between life and death for the officer, the criminal would have murdered him no question. And regardless of what qualifications you have the point is everyone here seems to think that the sentence is too short because there was nothing on the part of the criminal that made the difference between murder and attempted murder.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35799454]how many years is "enough".[/QUOTE] And upon what merits, too boot. [editline]2nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=RO;35799457]If someone was willing to hold a gun to a cops head and then shoot them 5 times I doubt they were thinking of jail and I doubt they would be too bothered about shooting a witness if they got round to it , I'm pretty sure they would have said 'fuck it' a long time before it comes to that too. In this case it was a split second act that was the difference between life and death for the officer, the criminal would have murdered him no question. And regardless of what qualifications you have the point is everyone here seems to think that the sentence is too short because there was nothing on the part of the criminal that made the difference between murder and attempted murder.[/QUOTE] Wild and irrelevant conjecture.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799319]And you're completely qualified in terms of legal expertise to completely understand the ramifications of such a broad alteration to our judicial process. You do realize that matching attempted murder charges to murder charges would make criminals say "you know what, fuck it, I'm going away for the same amount of time anyway, might as well get rid of the witness!" We charge attempted murder less than actual murder because no fucking murder took place, pal. Matching the sentences would encourage murder once a crime had already been committed and would completely devalue the crime of murder as it stands.[/QUOTE] I understand that reasoning for matching the punishment for rape (and other types of crimes) to murder, because then the punishment is the same anyway, but how does that work for attempted murder? They were [I]already[/I] trying to murder them, but failed. It's not like they went out with the intent of [I]almost[/I] killing somebody, they wanted to but failed. How would charging them the same if they were successful in their attempt or not drive up murder rates? I'm seriously curious, I want to know. Again, that works for matching the sentences [I]for different types of crimes[/I], but I don't see how it works [I]if you're already trying to do the crime in the first place.[/I] Would sentencing them more despite failure somehow lower the failure rate? I think I'm missing something here.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799436]Post your birth certificate, then, if it's no biggie.[/QUOTE] why do you continually go on irrelevant conclusion during debates. the topic of discussion is not my birth certificate, it's your credentials that you continually claim to have but refuse to provide.
[QUOTE=Last or First;35799477]I understand that reasoning for matching the punishment for rape (and other types of crimes) to murder, because then the punishment is the same anyway, but how does that work for attempted murder? They were [I]already[/I] trying to murder them, but failed. It's not like they went out with the intent of [I]almost[/I] killing somebody, they wanted to but failed. How would charging them the same if they were successful in their attempt or not drive up murder rates? I'm seriously curious, I want to know. Again, that works for matching the sentences [I]for different types of crimes[/I], but I don't see how it works [I]if you're already trying to do the crime in the first place.[/I] Would sentencing them more despite failure somehow lower the failure rate? I think I'm missing something here.[/QUOTE] It's about what DID happen, not what would have happened under different circumstances.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799455]But if you already did enough to earn attempted murder charges (i.e. shooting (at) them), your crimes are solidified and there's absolutely no legal reason NOT to kill the victim.[/QUOTE] There is no reason not to kill the victim because that is what you are trying to do. Im pretty sure most people don't shoot someone five times and then are like fuck this because they could get a couple more years. I'm not arguing that every attempted murder charge should be the same as murder, but in a case like this where the murder of the victim was attempted to the fullest the perpetrator should be charged to the fullest.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799480]why do you continually go on irrelevant conclusion during debates. the topic of discussion is not my birth certificate, it's your credentials that you continually claim to have but refuse to provide.[/QUOTE] I'm asking you if you are comfortable posting your birth certificate to prove you are an American/British/whatever citizen. The answer is quite clearly "no." That is why I do not hand out copies of my degrees to random passersby. I am under no obligation to give you a damn thing. You can either accept it or you can deny it, but it doesn't change the fact that the things I am saying are verifiably correct. [editline]2nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=BusterBluth;35799541]There is no reason not to kill the victim because that is what you are trying to do. Im pretty sure most people don't shoot someone five times and then are like fuck this because they could get a couple more years. I'm not arguing that every attempted murder charge should be the same as murder, but in a case like this where the murder of the victim was attempted to the fullest the perpetrator should be charged to the fullest.[/QUOTE] Uhm, attempted murder does not imply premeditation. What you're saying implies there is no such thing as attempted murder if the victim isn't dead.
Stop posting, your shitting the thread up
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799497]It's about what DID happen, not what would have happened under different circumstances.[/QUOTE] But they're the same threat. They failed because of other people's actions. They're the same person, trying to commit the same crime, but the only difference is outside forces. How does the individual action of a victim make the criminal any less of a threat? (Ignoring of course if the victim somehow crippled the criminal. I mean like if someone dodged a bullet, or if the moved enough so it hit their arm instead of their head.) I'm talking on a "should" scale here, not an "is" scale, just to clarify. (for legal retribution)
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799546]I'm asking you if you are comfortable posting your birth certificate to prove you are an American/British/whatever citizen. [/QUOTE] the difference is: I don't continually claim that I'm a _____ citizen. I don't use that claim to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority]pretend my opinion means any more than anyone else.[/url] I'd actually provide proof if I did either of these things.
second degree murder in Michigan is like 15 to life so someone explain to me how 14-25 years for an assault in which no one died is lenient.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799588]the difference is: I don't continually claim that I'm a _____ citizen. I don't use that claim to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authoritypretend my opinion means any more than anyone else.[/url] I'd actually provide proof if I did either of these things.[/QUOTE] Uhh, no. I'm not saying "i'm right deal w/ it" I am explaining in excruciating detail why the situation is what it is, in a manner which is easily verifiable to a layman. I am also actively engaging others in the discussion and addressing their points. Try harder.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799546] Uhm, attempted murder does not imply premeditation. What you're saying implies there is no such thing as attempted murder if the victim isn't dead.[/QUOTE] How does what I said imply premeditation?
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799480]why do you continually go on irrelevant conclusion during debates. the topic of discussion is not my birth certificate, it's your credentials that you continually claim to have but refuse to provide.[/QUOTE] oh stuff it Lankist has been talking about these things for years with a perfect track record. If he isn't working in the legal system then he should be. And Lankist, you know this is a losing cause, right? Everyone's trying to have their emotional hard on, not discuss how the legal system works. Even if you convinced them they were wrong on every account legally they'd still just say 'it's wrong and he should be punished more'.
[QUOTE=thisispain;35799213]yes and he was convicted for his intention.[/QUOTE] No, he was not, thats the problem. [editline]2nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Last or First;35799587]But they're the same threat. They failed because of other people's actions. They're the same person, trying to commit the same crime, but the only difference is outside forces. How does the individual action of a victim make the criminal any less of a threat? (Ignoring of course if the victim somehow crippled the criminal. I mean like if someone dodged a bullet, or if the moved enough so it hit their arm instead of their head.) I'm talking on a "should" scale here, not an "is" scale, just to clarify. (for legal retribution)[/QUOTE] You're never going to get through, every time they just say "but he didn't die". Apparently they can't seem to realize that's not the point at all.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;35799606]How does what I said imply premeditation?[/QUOTE] "There is no reason not to kill the victim because that is what you are trying to do." Attempted murder can fall into the realm of negligence, passion or compulsion. Your logic implies that attempted murder is a thing that cannot even exist if a criminal does not succeed. [editline]2nd May 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Jetblack357;35799622]No, he was not, thats the problem.[/QUOTE] Uhm, yes he was. Intention does not equate the exact same sentencing as a crime that actually happened. It simply doesn't. I don't know how many fucking times I need to explain it to you.
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799604]Uhh, no. I'm not saying "i'm right deal w/ it" I am explaining in excruciating detail why the situation is what it is, in a manner which is easily verifiable to a layman. I am also actively engaging others in the discussion and addressing their points. Try harder.[/QUOTE] [quote]ITT Facepunch thinks it knows more about the justice system than someone who is in the justice system.[/QUOTE] [quote]Do I need to mention what I do for a living again or do you think people will just catch on by this point?[/QUOTE] should I hold my breath for proof or are you just bowing out?
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;35799622]No, he was not, thats the problem. [/QUOTE] no i looked at the OP and it did say: two counts of assault with intent to commit murder. so yeah i mean the word intent is actually in that sentence.
It's not like spending more time in the slammer will somehow heal his injuries. Infact it literally has no benefit to the cop at all. Sounds like schadenfreude to me. Throwing your problems in a jail does no good for the cop, the shooter, anyone. In a society so eager to jail, we often overlook rehabilitation.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799663]should I hold my breath for proof or are you just bowing out?[/QUOTE] I refer back to my deal. You post your birth certificate and I post my degrees. That is unless you're lying about being a person.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799663]should I hold my breath for proof or are you just bowing out?[/QUOTE] you really don't know how fallacies work do you They're fallacies when they're his argument, not when they're statements he makes in between his argument. If I present a lecture on the proofs of General Relativity, and then say that people who don't believe me are fucking morons that doesn't negate my lecture or any of the proof I presented.
[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;35799663]should I hold my breath for proof or are you just bowing out?[/QUOTE] if you're trying to prove that "just cuz you got a degree it don't mean you smarter than me" i just wanna say that you're bad at that and doing the exact opposite thanks
[QUOTE=Lankist;35799640]"There is no reason not to kill the victim because that is what you are trying to do." Attempted murder can fall into the realm of negligence, passion or compulsion. Your logic implies that attempted murder is a thing that cannot even exist if a criminal does not succeed. [editline]2nd May 2012[/editline] Uhm, yes he was. Intention does not equate the exact same sentencing as a crime that actually happened. It simply doesn't. I don't know how many fucking times I need to explain it to you.[/QUOTE] I don't know how many times I need to explain it to you. An attempted murder is every bit as bad as murder short of the person dying. The person is still just as much a threat to others as they are without killing as they are with killing.
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