Battle for Aleppo has ended in 'uncompromising military victory': UN
154 replies, posted
[QUOTE=IrishBandit;51545394]It's good that the fighting is over, but Assad is still a brutal dictator. There are no good guys here, only degrees of bad guy.[/QUOTE]
Assad is a necessary evil.
I'd like to ask any of the Syrians in here who staunchly support Assad how they feel about the fact that Assad kicked off the Syrian Civil War himself by responding to mostly peaceful protests by slaughtering those involved.
I recall watching on various sources as it happened and it seemed like it'd be really, really difficult to fake.
I'm not pretending that Assad being in charge isn't a better thing than ISIS taking the reins for almost everyone involved, but Assad doesn't deserve praise. It feels blatantly contrarian to state otherwise.
Good! Then people can finally start going home.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51546075]Good! Then people can finally start going home.[/QUOTE]
"Ok, I know the fighting has literally just stopped, and the damage to the infrastructure and all the houses hasn't even had a chance to begin to be repaired, and as the article says that "the war will still be far from over", but I would really like it if all these brown people would just leave"
[QUOTE=yff;51545844]It's nice that you're still trying to post your side of the story but you should really not expect a lot to happen from it. You should treat Facepunch as Salon lite version, especially this subsection where it's practically taboo to be anything tiny bit right from Gandhi himself, or disagree on things like Russia is evil etc.
You would be rained down with boxes in pretty much every of your post in previous iteration of this subsection. This is the section that strongly advocated for Gaddafi's removal while knowing the possible risks of him gone and surprise surprise, everyone is practically playing dumb and pretending Libya doesn't exist and the fact that it turned from one of the most prosperous nations of Africa into tribalistic/warlord divided shithole.
That being said, people should learn the lesson from Libya and NOT remove Assad blindly lest they want Syria to suffer the same fate as Libya, except it would be 10 times worse considering Libya intervention was relatively fast.[/QUOTE]
Lmao, Facepunch has always been fairly moderately Left-leaning, certainly more moderate than the conservative persecution complexes you get here. And let's cut it out with this revisionist history. Almost entirely everyone decided that Syria would be better off with Assad once it became clear the moderate rebels were becoming a minority. The only people with the black-and-white views were the Assad cheerleaders.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51545383]Most refugees won't want to go back
While most natives of whatever country they're in will want them to
While most governments of those countries will probably come up with half-assed measures in an attempt to make both sides happy[/QUOTE]
Send every last one of them back. Who gives a damn if they don't want to, they're refugees. By definition, they are seeking shelter from a war. Once that war is over, they're supposed to go back.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51546051]I'd like to ask any of the Syrians in here who staunchly support Assad how they feel about the fact that Assad kicked off the Syrian Civil War himself by responding to mostly peaceful protests by slaughtering those involved.
I recall watching on various sources as it happened and it seemed like it'd be really, really difficult to fake.
I'm not pretending that Assad being in charge isn't a better thing than ISIS taking the reins for almost everyone involved, but Assad doesn't deserve praise. It feels blatantly contrarian to state otherwise.[/QUOTE]
if you want to know how it started, basically protests started peaceful, back then many people outside Syria wanted people to protest the government, religious extremists started saying dumb shit to make people involved, government made some promises to protesters, telling them to stop and they'll get what they want, because people were using them for their benefits.
IIRC, some of my friends were cops, they were told to stand in protests and they gave them no guns, they protesters beat the crap shit out of them, and then it wasn'just peaceful protests anymore, it was all with guns.
The media war was at its highest back then, with arabic speaking channels like aljazeera and alarabiya telling lies all day long, and Syrian channels like addounia (back then) just taking clips of those channels and pointing out the lies.
Rebels started slowly taking control of some areas while the army did basically nothing, because any move will be used in the media against them, nothinh was done until the whole terrorist idea was known to the world.
How do I feel about supporting him?, well first of all the SAA is the only reason I or anyone I know is still alive, the government isn't the best, many mistakes were made, but I'd still take it over any other filthy arab government, and I'd take it everytime over the US government that's not only destroying your country, but many of our countries aswell.
This government gave me free health and education over the years, and a country in the top 3 safest places in the world before the shit started.
Do I like my government? No, but I know my country is in much better hands with him in charge, than any of the "moderate rebels" or the clowns you see in the media
[QUOTE=Ridge;51546157]Send every last one of them back. Who gives a damn if they don't want to, they're refugees. By definition, they are seeking shelter from a war. Once that war is over, they're supposed to go back.[/QUOTE]
this is horrible.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51546273]this is horrible.[/QUOTE]
You're horrible
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51545901]When 99% of the world's (i.e., not just the US) news agencies all report the same thing about the Syrian government and the Syrian government says otherwise, I throw my lot in with the majority.[/QUOTE]
like when hillary was gonna win the election, got it.
[editline]18th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51546051]I'd like to ask any of the Syrians in here who staunchly support Assad how they feel about the fact that Assad kicked off the Syrian Civil War himself by responding to mostly peaceful protests by slaughtering those involved.
I recall watching on various sources as it happened and it seemed like it'd be really, really difficult to fake.
I'm not pretending that Assad being in charge isn't a better thing than ISIS taking the reins for almost everyone involved, but Assad doesn't deserve praise. It feels blatantly contrarian to state otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Assad learned his lesson, he should be punished but then again its in the syrians best interest that he regains control, stability returns he and restarts some democracy up into that bitch.
[editline]18th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51546090]"Ok, I know the fighting has literally just stopped, and the damage to the infrastructure and all the houses hasn't even had a chance to begin to be repaired, and as the article says that "the war will still be far from over", but I would really like it if all these brown people would just leave"[/QUOTE]
Why are you putting such words into his mouth?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51546334]Why are you putting such words into his mouth?[/QUOTE]
Thanks for taking a joke as seriously as you could.
I've seen enough of Lord M's post to know what he thinks of refugees. Even though I do think that some refugees should return to Syria once the coast is clear, there is a pretty important point with that, once the coast is [I]actually[/I] clear, not when fighting stops in one city in the country. Lord M, on the other hand, jumps the gun and wants them out because he clearly has a problem with them.
[QUOTE=IrishBandit;51545394]It's good that the fighting is over, but Assad is still a brutal dictator. There are no good guys here, only degrees of bad guy.[/QUOTE]
Unless you want Syria to end up like Libya then hope that Assad will win.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51546334]Assad learned his lesson, he should be punished but then again its in the syrians best interest that he regains control, stability returns he and restarts some democracy up into that bitch.[/QUOTE]
Why the fuck would he do that?
He responded to a popular uprising that started civil with violence and came out on top, why would he do anything but keep doing what he was doing?
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51546090]"Ok, I know the fighting has literally just stopped, and the damage to the infrastructure and all the houses hasn't even had a chance to begin to be repaired, and as the article says that "the war will still be far from over", but I would really like it if all these brown people would just leave"[/QUOTE]
I don't remember specifying? Wouldn't it be good that those that have fled Aleppo and surrounding area can now go home? And now many who have fled other areas can restart anew in Aleppo and when their areas are liberated can go home there? And some refugees that fled to Europe can restart anew in those liberated areas. Wouldn't that be good?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51546334]Why are you putting such words into his mouth?[/QUOTE]
These kinda people always put words in mouth on those with differing views.
[QUOTE=Ridge;51546157]Send every last one of them back. Who gives a damn if they don't want to, they're refugees. By definition, they are seeking shelter from a war. Once that war is over, they're supposed to go back.[/QUOTE]
How can you be so ignorant of the very values your country fought for.
For fucks sake you have this chiseled into the statue of liberty.
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
What happened to you to make you so hateful of those trying to escape persecution and tyranny.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51546406]Why the fuck would he do that?
He responded to a popular uprising that started civil with violence and came out on top, why would he do anything but keep doing what he was doing?[/QUOTE]
Because he won't be able to. At a point where he 'wins' the civil war, it'll be something barely fitting the definition of a "country". No infrastructure for years to come. Overblown command structure with very ambitious military commanders but pretty much no actual army behind them, literally zero political capital to spare, absolutely no economy, no money, ruined social structure, scattered and displaced population.
Plus Assad will be severely indebted to his allies who wouldn't want to be dragged through all this shit again. Russia and Iran have some major interest in Syria becoming stable and staying loyal, another uprising will fuck it up with no ISIS needed. Iran now has its own representatives directly in Syrian command structure, they'll be very influential and powerful when the civil war ends. Russia will most likely end up with a lot of leverage over Assad as well. Even if Assad somehow completely goes retarded, he'll just get ousted.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51546379]This forum has always been first and foremost a contrarian platform.
People here often disregard the intricacies of real world conflicts for the sake of end-goal ideology. A common sentiment is the belief that "innocent lives" are above and beyond any and all argumentation in favor of anything that doesn't appear to fix the problem of innocent lives being wasted literally overnight. Even if that means those innocent lives will be far worse off in 5 years time than they would today, people will still overwhelmingly support knee-jerk solutions that aren't always rooted in fact, but rather as vehicles to just feel better about themselves. The problem isn't lying to oneself however, but rather omitting or disregarding alternatives.
For this reason I believe that this section of Facepunch is a concise demonstration of what happens when people really, really far away from the problems and conflicts they read about in the news, try and voice their opinions on the matter and often use it as a platform to test out their ideological motives and just how far they would - theoretically - be able to take them. It's almost an absurd detachment from reality, yet the argumentation is still somewhat lucid.
Staunch opposition to any and all forms of capital punishment, Russia's involvement in Ukraine and Syria, Israeli conflicts, the result of the US election, Syria itself - are all just playgrounds for their own brand of mental gymnastics and ideological debate. None of what you read on this forum should be taken as fact or even, genuinity, because I believe that it's all just a very elaborate facade to hide the actuality of it that, truly - nobody knows what they're talking about. It's all hypotheticals based on dry data. This is why "sources" here are always regarded as the great equalizers, used to utterly crush the opposing argument even if the sources use faulty extrapolation or methods or bias, or don't even out-right debunk the opposing argument to begin with, it doesn't matter. As long as it has pies and charts to suit your side of the argument, you win, no questions asked.
I think it's best to use Facepunch as a tool to challenge your views just for the sake of challenging them, rather than reaching any conclusions or worldly views or even changing your opinions on different matters. The argumentation is juice of this section of the forums. It's not by any stretch of the imagination, rooted in reality. As such, you should never take anything here seriously no matter how serious on the surface it may appear. It's all just smoke and mirrors.[/QUOTE]
I hope you weren't posting this in a library or something, because public masturbation is a pretty serious crime.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51546423]I don't remember specifying? Wouldn't it be good that those that have fled Aleppo and surrounding area can now go home? And now many who have fled other areas can restart anew in Aleppo and when their areas are liberated can go home there? And some refugees that fled to Europe can restart anew in those liberated areas. Wouldn't that be good?[/quote]
Yes, it would be good. Trouble is, it wouldn't be good right now. You'd be a fool to think that Aleppo is suddenly safe from conflict.
[quote]These kinda people always put words in mouth on those with differing views.[/QUOTE]
Here we see another attempt to discredit an ideology that the poster doesn't like because he has a problem with me specifically. "These kinda people", good grief.
[editline]18th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51546379]*wall of text*[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously expressing disbelief that people attempt to win arguments by using evidence to back up their point?
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51546448]
Are you seriously expressing disbelief that people attempt to win arguments by using evidence to back up their point?[/QUOTE]
No, the point is people have their heads super far deep into their asses. They're trying to apply the morals and ideals from their cozy asses and nearby surroundings to a whole world and demonize anyone who dares to say shit like that wouldn't work.
It's not even about ""liberal"" people actually trying to promote liberal values here. It's about false revolutionaries, quasi cosmopolitans, and hidden reactionaries whose purpose is just to make drama out of everything and always spin the story as if they were the victimized ones in order to manifest their elitist tendencies. They don't actually want to be equal with other people of differing opinion, on contrary, they want to rise above everyone else and show how others with differing opinion are inferior compared to them.
And most people here are being contrarians for the sake of being edgy contrarians, reminds me of sort of people South Park parodied who sniff their own farts.
Don't worry tho, this shit is not contained to this forum. It's p much all over the Internet and it's even leaking into real life. I find this sort of people much more obnoxious than the far-right oriented ones, even tho the far-right ones usually have mental maturity of a fifteen year old.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51546075]Good! Then people can finally start going home.[/QUOTE]
Unlikely.
The war still goes on there and in Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and parts of Africa. The country is rubble and probably won't be able to support itself (read feed itself) any many people are scared of Assad.
Best case scenario for Syria:
Us stops funding rebels.
Government win
Assad dissapears to Russia leaving someone more favourable incharge
Russia (syrian ally) and US (responsible for prolonging conflict by helping rebels) help rebuild the nation.
Then maybe the Syrian refugee crisis will stop and people can go home.
Hopefully Syria can be used as a learning experience - don't fund rebels and sew chaos. Sadly America - a country barely affected by the refugee crisis is playing one of the leading roles in dragging the conflict on.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51546554]Unlikely.
The war still goes on there and in Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and parts of Africa. The country is rubble and probably won't be able to support itself (read feed itself) any many people are scared of Assad.
Best case scenario for Syria:
Us stops funding rebels.
Government win
Assad dissapears to Russia leaving someone more favourable incharge
Russia (syrian ally) and US (responsible for prolonging conflict by helping rebels) help rebuild the nation.
Then maybe the Syrian refugee crisis will stop and people can go home.
Hopefully Syria can be used as a learning experience - don't fund rebels and sew chaos. Sadly America - a country barely affected by the refugee crisis is playing one of the leading roles in dragging the conflict on.[/QUOTE]
Yeah guess what same shit was going on in Yugoslavia yet people were sent back home from Germany after the war ended. Germany didn't care and sent literally everyone home, even those who learned German and adapted into their new environment extremely well.
If these people don't start going home after the war, it just shows what kind of double standard is happening when it comes to European refugees compared to non European (aka non white) ones.
It also shows that people were manipulating others on purpose like a dishonest pieces of trash, saying "it's only temporary" when this whole thing began even tho they were fully aware these people wont go back that easily.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51545901]When 99% of the world's (i.e., not just the US) news agencies all report the same thing about the Syrian government and the Syrian government says otherwise, I throw my lot in with the majority.[/QUOTE]
There have been cases of legitimate sources all citing the same thing which was wrong.
If suddenly 100 crazies start saying the same thing, that doesnt mean you are the crazy one.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51546777]The most of the vietnamese never went back. Guess why.[/QUOTE]
Are you implying only people against Assad fled Syria, and even then are you further implying that Assad would massacre them while the whole world is watching him?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51546334]like when hillary was gonna win the election, got it.
[/QUOTE]
Except she did win the election?
She may not have won all the electoral votes, but she most definitely won all the people's votes.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51546832]Except she did win the election?
She may not have won all the electoral votes, but she most definitely won all the people's votes.[/QUOTE]
too bad the election doesn't count the popular vote then, otherwise she would have won
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51546075]Good! Then people can finally start going home.[/QUOTE]
Try imagining yourself in their shoes for once.
Do you really think it's just like "Ok war done let's go home"?
Many will not have a home to come back to, or the infrastructure to support basic needs.
Imagine if Irish immigrants were told to go home from America as soon as we got independence.
Imagine if the people who fled Germany were told to just "go home" after the end of the Second World War.
Many will go home. We shouldn't force them. Especially since I believe that Syria will be at war in the next decade. I hope I'm wrong.
But if anything, the war in Syria has disillusioned me from any good the international community could do in a war, as well as the fact that all sides didn't have the good of the Syrian people at heart.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51546872]Those homes and that infrastructure won't build themselves.[/QUOTE]
Except not everyone can just up and build a house. It requires resources, expertise, and money, something refugees of war-torn regions tend not to have.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51546872]Those homes and that infrastructure won't build themselves.[/QUOTE]
True enough. Not that everyone is qualified for things like that (e.g. children)
In any case, when things settle the rebuilding will be pretty slow.
Just slapping everyone back home immediately will surely result in housing & sanitary issues.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51546885]Except not everyone can just up and build a house. It requires resources, expertise, and money, something refugees of war-torn regions tend not to have.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on, the Germans said a few years ago that those refugees are future doctors, engineers and astronauts. If they can't get a job in Germany, they might as well try to rebuild their own country if they are that qualified.
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