Oh no I have to fight smarter and more cautiously instead of just tanking hits like a faggot!
I couldn't play Dark Souls on the PC due to how terrible and shitty the PC port was. Hopefully they'll correct those issues this time around.
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;42252908]I couldn't play Dark Souls on the PC due to how terrible and shitty the PC port was. Hopefully they'll correct those issues this time around.[/QUOTE]
DSFix, plug and play controller, sorted.
[QUOTE=lintz;42252926]DSFix, plug and play controller, sorted.[/QUOTE]
Never worked for me.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42249571]explain?[/QUOTE]
It's Unstable Equilibrium at it's worst. Better players have more health and therefore become even less likely to die, and the less skilled players that have more need for that health will not have it and would be much more likely to die than previously. It means that good players will have an easy time as the difficulty will be (likely) lowered to account for this, so terrible players will do even worse and better players will find the game less challenging because they never died in the first place.
[QUOTE=bravehat;42252607]I completely disagree, it adds a premium to skill in the game, you get better and you suffer less, thus making life easier, it's just a more tangible way to push you into getting better.[/QUOTE]
So tell me if I'm understanding this right. More skilled players need to have an easier time because they're more skilled and obviously shouldn't be challenged and less skilled players need a harder time simply because they're lesser skilled peasants.
It's kind of like how when you died in Demon's Souls that you'd get pitted against enemies that were stronger than before but if you did really well you'd be pitted against enemies that are even easier than before. The system made the game easier for the players who needed challenge the most, and more frustrating for players who were doing poorly to begin with.
[QUOTE=Reshy;42253330]It's Unstable Equilibrium at it's worst. Better players have more health and therefore become even less likely to die, and the less skilled players that have more need for that health will not have it and would be much more likely to die than previously. It means that good players will have an easy time as the difficulty will be (likely) lowered to account for this, so terrible players will do even worse and better players will find the game less challenging because they never died in the first place.
So tell me if I'm understanding this right. More skilled players need to have an easier time because they're more skilled and obviously shouldn't be challenged and less skilled players need a harder time simply because they're lesser skilled peasants.[/QUOTE]
The change punishes people who think they can swing wildly and kill everything and stroll through the game, when those people learn the enemies move set and exploit their flaws then they'll excel and be able to regain max HP.
They are thus rewarded for learning and becoming better at the game.
Seriously, how is this so difficult for people to follow?
And at the start of Dark Souls 2 everyone will be getting fisted by the mobs because they're completely new, shit, folk who have sank hundreds of hours into Dark Souls might actually have more difficulty trying to get used to the new combat where as folk who have never played might pick it up faster because they don't have "bad" habits that they need to unlearn.
Then after a few hours of play it'll separate out, folk who have learned the enemies and combat system will start to excel, the folk who haven't learnt how Dark Souls works will be falling behind because of their inability to learn.
Dark Souls will not be a game that holds your hand, it's on the player to learn the system and they're punished for not doing that.
[QUOTE=bravehat;42253430]The change punishes people who think they can swing wildly and kill everything and stroll through the game, when those people learn the enemies move set and exploit their flaws then they'll excel and be able to regain max HP.
They are thus rewarded for learning and becoming better at the game.
Seriously, how is this so difficult for people to follow?
And at the start of Dark Souls 2 everyone will be getting fisted by the mobs because they're completely new, shit, folk who have sank hundreds of hours into Dark Souls might actually have more difficulty trying to get used to the new combat where as folk who have never played might pick it up faster because they don't have "bad" habits that they need to unlearn.
Then after a few hours of play it'll separate out, folk who have learned the enemies and combat system will start to excel, the folk who haven't learnt how Dark Souls works will be falling behind because of their inability to learn.
Dark Souls will not be a game that holds your hand, it's on the player to learn the system and they're punished for not doing that.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, I know I'll be trying to parry just before the attack hits even though the new parry wind up time is much longer. :v:
Unless you throw around your humanity once you've died once it'll be fine, bare in mind it may take several deaths to get close to 50%.
Always relevant:
[t]http://img.pr0gramm.com/2012/09/1348634189830.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=bravehat;42253430]The change punishes people who think they can swing wildly and kill everything and stroll through the game, when those people learn the enemies move set and exploit their flaws then they'll excel and be able to regain max HP.
They are thus rewarded for learning and becoming better at the game.
Seriously, how is this so difficult for people to follow?
And at the start of Dark Souls 2 everyone will be getting fisted by the mobs because they're completely new, shit, folk who have sank hundreds of hours into Dark Souls might actually have more difficulty trying to get used to the new combat where as folk who have never played might pick it up faster because they don't have "bad" habits that they need to unlearn.
Then after a few hours of play it'll separate out, folk who have learned the enemies and combat system will start to excel, the folk who haven't learnt how Dark Souls works will be falling behind because of their inability to learn.
Dark Souls will not be a game that holds your hand, it's on the player to learn the system and they're punished for not doing that.[/QUOTE]
They're already punished by losing their progress, why do they need to be punished further?
Why do players who are already well off need even less challenge while players who are already doing poorly need to do even more poorly? Answer me that.
There are plenty of challenging games out there, but the really good ones are difficult without being punishing. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU"]You ever watch the Extra Credits videos that talk about difficulty?[/URL] Punishment only increases the incentive to quit, after all if you're already behind the curve why keep playing? Challenging game play doesn't rely on punishing the player to make the experience seem more difficult than it is, it is more difficult without lazy tricks.
[QUOTE=Reshy;42253737]They're already punished by losing their progress, why do they need to be punished further?
Why do players who are already well off need even less challenge while players who are already doing poorly need to do even more poorly? Answer me that.
There are plenty of challenging games out there, but the really good ones are difficult without being punishing. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU"]You ever watch the Extra Credits videos that talk about difficulty?[/URL] Punishment only increases the incentive to quit, after all if you're already behind the curve why keep playing? Challenging game play doesn't rely on punishing the player to make the experience seem more difficult than it is, it is more difficult without lazy tricks.[/QUOTE]
Maybe some people like punishing games, being constantly beaten down until you're able to actually handle the problem with ease because you relaxed and took a different approach to the problem?
If you're not okay with that style of gameplay then you probably shouldn't be playing Dark Souls.
You keep asking why players who do well should experience less challenge, in this case that's kind of a moot point, reducing their max health for succeeding literally punishes them for being good they'll experience greater difficulties as they advance through the game because the game gets harder, then they'll get killed over and over and lose max hp until they're able to fight and stay human against the stronger, faster, smarter mobs.
I honestly can't see why anyone doesn't like this change, it ups the stakes, that's all.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;42249819]Really though! This is exactly what Dark Souls II needs.
After beating Demon's Souls I just blew right through Dark Souls expecting the same challenge and was incredibly disappointed.
I don't know if it was because I was already used to a very similar game or if it was genuinely easier or a combination of both.
It's still probably one of my favorite games but it could be so much harder and it looks like that's what they're doing with this.
So excite[/QUOTE]
You probably found Dark Souls easy because you played Demon's Souls first. I played Dark Souls first and found Demon's Souls incredibly easy once I got used to the differences.
Death in Dark Souls really meant nothing unless you were planning to have a summon to help in a boss fight (none of which you need a summon for with enough effort and ensuring your gear is up to date) and you ran out of humanity. You'd just run by all the mobs, which would stop chasing you after a certain point, pick up your souls/hard humanity, carry on as you were.
I just hope they finally learn how difficulty curves work.
[QUOTE=elowin;42253845]I just hope they finally learn how difficulty curves work.[/QUOTE]
The difficulty in Dark Souls was fine, the only thing that could be problematic was the Bed of Chaos.
[QUOTE=Reshy;42253737]They're already punished by losing their progress, why do they need to be punished further?
Why do players who are already well off need even less challenge while players who are already doing poorly need to do even more poorly? Answer me that.
There are plenty of challenging games out there, but the really good ones are difficult without being punishing. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toVNkuCELpU"]You ever watch the Extra Credits videos that talk about difficulty?[/URL] Punishment only increases the incentive to quit, after all if you're already behind the curve why keep playing? Challenging game play doesn't rely on punishing the player to make the experience seem more difficult than it is, it is more difficult without lazy tricks.[/QUOTE]
Losing a bit of health, which you can recover easily, is not too much of a punishment. If you want an example of an overly punishing game you need to look at Demon's Souls. When you die your max HP is halved, you lose your souls, and the game gets harder. Compared to that Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are forgiving.
[QUOTE=bravehat;42253856]The difficulty in Dark Souls was fine, the only thing that could be problematic was the Bed of Chaos.[/QUOTE]
Bed of Chaos wasn't remotely difficult, it was just cheap and broken. The hardest boss in the game is 4 kings, by far.
[editline]20th September 2013[/editline]
Seriously, past O&S the game becomes a joke besides that one boss.
[editline]20th September 2013[/editline]
Assuming you don't use the cheap stone armour but then there's literally no difficult boss past the midpoint of the game.
[QUOTE=Lukeo;42253808]Death in Dark Souls really meant nothing unless you were planning to have a summon to help in a boss fight (none of which you need a summon for with enough effort and ensuring your gear is up to date) and you ran out of humanity. You'd just run by all the mobs, which would stop chasing you after a certain point, pick up your souls/hard humanity, carry on as you were.[/QUOTE]
Death in Dark Souls was a slight inconvenience.
[QUOTE=bravehat;42253856]The difficulty in Dark Souls was fine, the only thing that could be problematic was the Bed of Chaos.[/QUOTE]
no
Dark Souls doesn't [b]have[/b] a difficulty curve. It litterally doesn't. Pretty much the hardest part of the game is the Ornstein and Smough boss battle, which is around the middle of the game, after it, the difficulty actually [b]drops[/b], culminating in the final boss being a complete and utter joke. Atleast in my experience.
And I honestly found Bed of Chaos to be ridiculously easy, since your progress carries over from dying. Super easy to just brute force it once you realize that.
[editline]20th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=BlkDucky;42253889]Bed of Chaos wasn't remotely difficult, it was just cheap and broken. The hardest boss in the game is 4 kings, by far.
[/QUOTE]
I actually have a bit of a story regarding Four Kings.
See, I introduced one of my friends to Dark Souls back about half ago, thing is, he sucked at it.
After managing to beat the first few bosses, he simply handed the controller to me at almost every boss after that.
The only bosses he actually beat himself were, the Asylum Demon, Taurus Demon, Moonlight Butterfly, Sif, and The Four Kings.
He died a shitton of times to every single one of these, with the one of exception of Four Kings, which he beat in a single try.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42253881]Losing a bit of health, which you can recover easily, is not too much of a punishment. If you want an example of an overly punishing game you need to look at Demon's Souls. When you die your max HP is halved, you lose your souls, and the game gets harder. Compared to that Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are forgiving.[/QUOTE]
Honestly seems to me like the only people moaning about this are the ones who either never played Demons Souls, played Demons Souls after Dark Souls and thought it was too difficult, or can't deal with death in a game having actual consequences that force you to use your fucking brain.
In Demons Souls with half your max HP available you had to fight more intelligently and cautiously. I'm baffled as to why this mentality is now considered a bad thing. "What do you mean I can't run around like a jackass eating hits and chugging potions anymore! ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY!". These people sound like fuckin DSP, except not quite as bad.
we don't even know if there's additional mechanics tied to your hp
in demon's souls you did more damage in soul form for example
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;42254092]we don't even know if there's additional mechanics tied to your hp
in demon's souls you did more damage in soul form for example[/QUOTE]
that was only if you had white character tendency, and wasn't by much
[editline]20th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;42254015]Honestly seems to me like the only people moaning about this are the ones who either never played Demons Souls, played Demons Souls after Dark Souls and thought it was too difficult, or can't deal with death in a game having actual consequences that force you to use your fucking brain.
In Demons Souls with half your max HP available you had to fight more intelligently and cautiously. I'm baffled as to why this mentality is now considered a bad thing. "What do you mean I can't run around like a jackass eating hits and chugging potions anymore! ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY!". These people sound like fuckin DSP, except not quite as bad.[/QUOTE]
Honestly the whole Soul Form/Human Form thing in Demon's Souls was really shit.
You might as well have just halved people's hit points.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;42253881]Losing a bit of health, which you can recover easily, is not too much of a punishment. If you want an example of an overly punishing game you need to look at Demon's Souls. When you die your max HP is halved, you lose your souls, and the game gets harder. Compared to that Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are forgiving.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Benzine;42249218]It's been stated that the Effigies are going to be similar to Demons Souls' Stone of Ephemeral Eyes, which were certainly rare and finite, and is one of the only ways to become human, the other is to kill a boss with a host that summons you.[/QUOTE]
So no, not easily regained.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;42254015]Honestly seems to me like the only people moaning about this are the ones who either never played Demons Souls, played Demons Souls after Dark Souls and thought it was too difficult, [I]or can't deal with death in a game having actual consequences that force you to use your fucking brain.[/I]
In Demons Souls with half your max HP available you had to fight more intelligently and cautiously. I'm baffled as to why this mentality is now considered a bad thing. "What do you mean I can't run around like a jackass eating hits and chugging potions anymore! ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY!". T[B]hese people sound like fuckin DSP, except not quite as bad.[/B][/QUOTE]
So people who disagree with you are just stupid right? Can't deal with a differing opinion without resorting to "You're just too stupid to understand"?
Honestly it occurs to me that most of the people who say the decision is fine are the same players who breezed through Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and want a harder game. Not understanding that this has [B]no and I mean NO[/B] effect on good players. It only affects players who are already doing poorly. You guys treat dying like it was a conscious choice when it's obvious it isn't. Players will adapt to get better and eventually get past it, that's a given. So why does the challenge need to get more difficult? It can be compared to those old space shooters where you collected power-ups to make yourself more powerful, but when you died you went back to your crappy starting gun. It's not quite the same thing but it has similarities, if you couldn't beat it at your probably not going to do any better next time unless it's a Trial and Error game.
I like difficult games don't get me wrong, but I don't like being punished for playing it. I would enjoy Super Meat Boy much less if I had to restart the entire chapter after ten deaths. It'd be frustrating, but not difficult. I don't understand why the people in this thread seem to have such a hard on for getting frustrated while playing a game. Is it because they know they're already good and therefore would enjoy laughing at other players who end up dying a lot? I'm trying to understand the fascination with frustrating game play and I just can't see it. Games like Hotline Miami, Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, Binding of Isaac, etc. I enjoy because even though I may die I'm not disadvantaged for having done so. But from what I'm hearing about this new system it would be possible to end up in a situation where you have no way of becoming human and you've died so much that a stiff breeze tears you in half while being expected to go into one of the hardest fights of the game for the tenth time.
^
Hardly anybody breezed through Dark Souls, most of us got our ass handed to us by the first black knight and the gargoyles.
I'm horrible at Demon and Dark Souls and I don't care about this new health system.
as a friend who played the beta said about the change, "adapt or don't buy"
[editline]20th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lukeo;42254526]^
Hardly anybody breezed through Dark Souls, most of us got our ass handed to us by the first black knight and the gargoyles.[/QUOTE]
maneaters
I think the best part will be invading hollowed people of those who aren't following game development and assume you can't be invaded as a hollow like in DS1
The tears will be delicious
I will welcome their hate messages with open arms.
[QUOTE=X-Neon;42251627]The force to get better is simply wanting to beat game. It doesn't need this health system to compound it. Either way, it's a terrible way to get people to improve at something. It's common knowledge that when you teach someone something, you don't want to throw them in at the deep end, but rather ease them in to it. People do not learn best performing very difficult tasks.[/QUOTE]
Actually, we learn the best in situations that demand it right away.
Everyone learns things better differently, its common knowledge.
As for the difficulty, i could be disgruntled by the new things but I'll beat the game just to say I did it and it will feel more satisfying in the end.
Dark Souls wasn't punishing. It was hard but it wasn't punishing. Punishing players who have already lost is pretty shitty game design and only serves to make the game less enjoyable. Of course more hardcore players will relish in the challenge and say anyone who can't deal with it need to "get good" but these are the same people who said the frame drops in the game were an intentional and well thought out challenge.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Dark Souls, but "punishing" isn't the right away to do things.
[QUOTE=Shibbey;42255413]Dark Souls wasn't punishing. It was hard but it wasn't punishing. Punishing players who have already lost is pretty shitty game design and only serves to make the game less enjoyable. Of course more hardcore players will relish in the challenge and say anyone who can't deal with it need to "get good" but these are the same people who said the frame drops in the game were an intentional and well thought out challenge.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Dark Souls, but "punishing" isn't the right away to do things.[/QUOTE]
I believe if you cant handle being punished for being bad then you shouldn't be playing the game, or you should be actively trying to learn the game to beat it.
I don't believe frame drops were intentional. Why is it that I never hear anyone bitching about how hard Demon Souls was, that game was WAY tougher than anything this is trying to push
[QUOTE=Reshy;42254473]
[B]Honestly it occurs to me that most of the people who say the decision is fine are the same players who breezed through Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and want a harder game.[/B] Not understanding that this has [B]no and I mean NO[/B] effect on good players. It only affects players who are already doing poorly. You guys treat dying like it was a conscious choice when it's obvious it isn't. Players will adapt to get better and eventually get past it, that's a given. So why does the challenge need to get more difficult? It can be compared to those old space shooters where you collected power-ups to make yourself more powerful, but when you died you went back to your crappy starting gun. It's not quite the same thing but it has similarities, if you couldn't beat it at your probably not going to do any better next time unless it's a Trial and Error game.
I like difficult games don't get me wrong, but I don't like being punished for playing it. I would enjoy Super Meat Boy much less if I had to restart the entire chapter after ten deaths. It'd be frustrating, but not difficult. I don't understand why the people in this thread seem to have such a hard on for getting frustrated while playing a game. Is it because they know they're already good and therefore would enjoy laughing at other players who end up dying a lot? I'm trying to understand the fascination with frustrating game play and I just can't see it. Games like Hotline Miami, Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, Binding of Isaac, etc. I enjoy because even though I may die I'm not disadvantaged for having done so. But from what I'm hearing about this new system it would be possible to end up in a situation where you have no way of becoming human and you've died so much that a stiff breeze tears you in half while being expected to go into one of the hardest fights of the game for the tenth time.[/QUOTE]
I'd love to say I breeze through the games but I didn't. They kicked my fucking ass and I love them for it. In fact I'm still a bit rubbish at the games but I get better each time I play.
When I first got to O&S I thought was the most bullshit boss ever and I was so frustrated and pissed off I quit the game for months. Then I came back and put my big boy pants on and kicked their fucking asses and now it only takes me a couple tries at worst to beat them instead of 500.
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