Poroshenko wins Ukraine election, Tymoshenko a distant second say exit polls - Polidicks

Svoboda representative got 1.5%. So much for Russian's claims.

Should be a lot harder to sell the neo-Nazi coup narrative after this

[QUOTE=Swebonny;44909157]Svoboda representative got 1.5%. So much for Russian's claims.[/QUOTE] Because Ukrainian politics is encapsulated in a presidential election. Wow I expected more from a mod. Anyway, Svoboda has 38 seats in the Rada, [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Svoboda-2012.png]has received significant double digit numbers in West Ukraine/Galicia in the past[/url], [url=http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government]received significant cabinet positions including security chief with Andriy Parubiy because the rest of the 'moderate' anti-Yanukovich opposition likes them[/url] ([url=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/ng.htm]you'll also see Parubiy quoted by the west on military matters regarding the East, but his affiliations are never disclosed[/url]), [url=http://en.itar-tass.com/world/722460]their openly nazi cousins are also treated nicely by the interim government[/url], [url=http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/politics/article/greek-community-terrified-over-developments-in-ukraine]the Rada without the Regions and Communists is basically nationalist[/url], [url=http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-fee2-Communists-barred-from-Ukrainian-parliament#.U4KY3fldXEo]that Rada also occasionally excludes the Regions and Communist parties outright[/url] ([url=https://twitter.com/BSpringnote/status/463638673896919040]2[/url]). It also [url=http://en.itar-tass.com/world/727194]does nothing while far-right radical occupy and sack anti-Maidan opposition party offices even in Kiev[/url] and [url=http://www.novinite.com/articles/159823/Ukrainian+Candidate+for+Presidency+Brutally+Beaten]attack Party of regions[/url] and [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FW4xirM48]Communist party candidates[/url]. [url=http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/01/thousands-mourn-ukraine-protester-amid-unrest-2014126185654320641.html]Some Western Oblasts banned both parties outright during Maidan[/url]. [url=http://revolution-news.com/euromaidan-we-support-your-struggle-but-not-your-fascists-2nd-interview-with-a-ukrainian-anarchist/]Leftists were forced out of Maidan by nationalists[/url]. Also, curiously, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-dHVZTtTxQ#t=12]lots of nationalist flags started popping up in the Kiev city administration building when it was occupied. [/url] And of course, the scum killed 42 people less than a month ago and [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-two-dead-in-kharkiv-shootout-ahead-of-crimea-referendum-9194291.html]two other people in Kharkov months earlier[/url], which seems to be forgotten. Try educating yourself. [url=http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/24/the-brown-revolution-in-ukraine/]You can start here[/url] and [url=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war?CMP=fb_gu]here[/url]. [QUOTE=smurfy;44909768]Should be a lot harder to sell the neo-Nazi coup narrative after this[/QUOTE] Nobody claimed there was a nazi coup, on the contrary, an alliance of nationalists and liberals because of the former's alignment with western interests. Which frankly, unless you are hopelessly ignorant, is pretty easy to sell.

There are 450 seats in the Rada, 38 isn't that significant.

...you should probably go look at the numbers other parties have before you open your mouth, please. That's a 1/3 of the largest party's share, 1/2 of Tymoshenko's, and equal to other significant anti-Yanukovich parties like UDAR and anti-Maidan ones like the KPU. Also, what do you have to say about receiving 40% of the vote in some oblasts? The cabinet posts? The nationalist bills in the Rada that obviously couldn't be solely pushed by Svoboda? I always love it when I get more ratings than replies, especially good ones. I must be doing something right.

Not really. I might not be an expert, but you're RT personified. You were on Russia's side since day one.

I don't even read RT, and never have cited it. If you must know, I get most of my information from political forums and the debates within. Also, I'm a pole-american socialist, you can stop slandering me as a Russian nationalist, kthx.

[QUOTE=kimr120;44906007]I love that nickname, Chocolate king. It really fits.[/QUOTE] When did we start talking about Obama?

Which side is more legitimate?

I heard on the radio this guy is pro-west, so woo

[QUOTE=Conscript;44910156]I don't even read RT, and never have cited it. If you must know, I get most of my information from political forums and the debates within. Also, I'm a pole-american socialist, you can stop slandering me as a Russian nationalist, kthx.[/QUOTE] Surprising that you don't read RT, your viewpoints align with theirs completely, right down to the fascism argument and support for the separatists. Also I never said you were a Russian nationalist, just that you support them.

That's pretty much guilt by association, unless you believe the only people that could possibly believe such things are RT viewers. Also, the people in the east aren't 'Russian nationalists', that's a pretty vulgar way of describing it. They are Ukrainians that don't want to destroy east Slavic cultural ties and turn on Russia, do you think Lukashenko is a Russian nationalist?

Now there's a bit of a problem. Poroshenko's fortunes come largely from Roshen company. And if you remember, one Roshen's Russian factory was closed by authorities in March and its products were banned in Crimea. This means that Putin has heavy leverage on Poroshenko, who might well be intimidated to do as Putin tells him to regain his business and avoid further sanctions. In effect, Putin put knife on Poroshenko's wallet long time ago, which raises concerns that he will just turn to Yanukovich 2.0 over time. [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1378627/"]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1378627/[/URL] [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Conscript;44911050]They are Ukrainians that don't want to destroy east Slavic cultural ties and turn on Russia, do you think Lukashenko is a Russian nationalist?[/QUOTE] For someone who isn't pro-Russian, you have one impressive smear campaign going on against anyone who likewise isn't pro-Russian.

Lol, is that what you call evidenced claims? A smear campaign? I am not pro-russian, I am anti-fascist and anti-Banderist.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44911564]Lol, is that what you call evidenced claims? A smear campaign? I am not pro-russian, I am anti-fascist and anti-Banderist.[/QUOTE] You're anti-fascist yet you side with Russia. Nice world-view you got there. Seems awfully fragile.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44911564]Lol, is that what you call evidenced claims? A smear campaign? I am not pro-russian, I am anti-fascist and anti-Banderist.[/QUOTE] I never said you were pro-Russian. See, I can play semantics games as well. Evidence: What makes you not entirely credible is that many of your sources are heavily politically aligned, and on top of that you misrepresent the content of your links. This is easily verified by reading through your post on last page and checking how content of links match description. The kindest applicable descriptor would be "sensationalist". Smear campaign: Consistently discrediting interim government and blatantly exaggerating Ukrainian nationalist threat amounts to this. And when there's evidence of right wing influence receding, you immediately ignore it to keep demonizing Kiev. To what end? You also paint Ukraine making closer ties with EU as destroying slavic ties and making Russia this enemy. What goal does this ridiculously belligerent rhetoric drive other than continued submission of "slavs" to Kremlin? Apart from fear of losing stranglehold of Ukraine required for obsolete power bloc and buffer zone politics, there are no negative consequences for Russia of Ukraine cooperating with EU. Anti-fascist: This is funny as you perfectly subscribe to Kremlin's definitoin of fascism centered around anti-Russian sentiment. You focus your efforts on pro-Ukraine right wing radicals. Whenever anyone mentions the fascist farce that is eastern separatist movement, you say they're not very nice but so much better than Maidan. Since eastern separatists are more radical, violent and authoritaritarian than Kiev government, what else is there to conclude than that you are biased? Anti-Banderist: Isn't this ideology about resisting self-determination of Ukraine in favor of rule by Soviet Union / Russia? Just like Russian nationalists do. In summary, you are not pro-Russian, but by pure coincidence you share 100% of goals and attitudes with radical pro-Russians. With that, I'm kind of curious which internet forums you source your attitudes and information.

[QUOTE=Miskav;44911820]You're anti-fascist yet you side with Russia. Nice world-view you got there. Seems awfully fragile.[/QUOTE] But Russia isn't facist. You're just talking bullshit without thinking

[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;44912530]But Russia isn't facist. You're just talking bullshit without thinking[/QUOTE] Sort of incorrect. They don't self-identify as fascist, as they're still trading on the cachet of having beaten fascism in WWII, but their government is increasingly authoritarian (Remember the stuff about media censorship with the fuzzy definition of what could actually be censored, and blogs of a certain, small size being defined as mass media to get in on being censored, nevermind their treatment of anyone who isn't a straight, white russian) and expansionist. Some of this is similar to how things were under the Communists, but without the Communism, which means they're trending more towards a Fascist outlook. Which of course makes Putins claims of fascism in Ukraine back when hilariously ironic.

[QUOTE=Ignhelper;44908370]Maybe its just me, but I feel like she would had been the better candidate. After all, she did have a political background. But why was did she get so little votes? I thought she would be more popular than ever after being freed.[/QUOTE] I am sorry, but what? Poroshenko has a bigger political background then her. After he was a businessman he was: - Head of ministry of foreign affairs. - Head of ministry of internal affairs (aka the supreme king of the police). - Head of the budjet commitee. - Diplomat. - Some KGB-like force representive. And 5 or so other things I cant be arsed to remember. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] You guys should stop seeing Russia as a supreme evil.

[QUOTE=Vlevs;44911935]I never said you were pro-Russian. See, I can play semantics games as well. Evidence: What makes you not entirely credible is that many of your sources are heavily politically aligned, and on top of that you misrepresent the content of your links. This is easily verified by reading through your post on last page and checking how content of links match description. The kindest applicable descriptor would be "sensationalist". Smear campaign: Consistently discrediting interim government and blatantly exaggerating Ukrainian nationalist threat amounts to this. And when there's evidence of right wing influence receding, you immediately ignore it to keep demonizing Kiev. To what end? You also paint Ukraine making closer ties with EU as destroying slavic ties and making Russia this enemy. What goal does this ridiculously belligerent rhetoric drive other than continued submission of "slavs" to Kremlin? Apart from fear of losing stranglehold of Ukraine required for obsolete power bloc and buffer zone politics, there are no negative consequences for Russia of Ukraine cooperating with EU. Anti-fascist: This is funny as you perfectly subscribe to Kremlin's definitoin of fascism centered around anti-Russian sentiment. You focus your efforts on pro-Ukraine right wing radicals. Whenever anyone mentions the fascist farce that is eastern separatist movement, you say they're not very nice but so much better than Maidan. Since eastern separatists are more radical, violent and authoritaritarian than Kiev government, what else is there to conclude than that you are biased? Anti-Banderist: Isn't this ideology about resisting self-determination of Ukraine in favor of rule by Soviet Union / Russia? Just like Russian nationalists do. In summary, you are not pro-Russian, but by pure coincidence you share 100% of goals and attitudes with radical pro-Russians. With that, I'm kind of curious which internet forums you source your attitudes and information.[/QUOTE] This whole post can be boiled down to three points: 1. Guilt by association by sharing 'Kremlin views' 2. Everything I say is exaggerated 2. A (false) equivalency between Eastern separatists and Ukrainian nationalists. I appreciate the long post I guess, but there's really nothing for me to respond to, especially since you don't even try to prove anything just assert it (indeed, your whole post reads like a smear tbh). Otherwise, here you go: [url]http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/[/url]

[QUOTE=Conscript;44909987]Because Ukrainian politics is encapsulated in a presidential election. Wow I expected more from a mod. Anyway, Svoboda has 38 seats in the Rada[/QUOTE] Not for long. Poroshenko promised a parliamentary election as soon as possible because this parliament is shit

Oh really? I'm excited to see how it turns out. Especially if the Maidaners finally go through with what they want and ban the KPU. I'm curious, you're in Lviv, what do you see on the ground? Do you see examples of Russophobia, nationalism, etc.? [url=http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/04/25/ukrainian-artists-cage-russians-like-animals/]Anything like this?[/url]

[QUOTE=Conscript;44915255]Oh really? I'm excited to see how it turns out. Especially if the Maidaners finally go through with what they want and ban the KPU. [/QUOTE] The KPU is fucked anyway, I'll be surprised if anyone votes for them [QUOTE=Conscript;44915255]I'm curious, you're in Lviv, what do you see on the ground? Do you see examples of Russophobia, nationalism, etc.? [url=http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/04/25/ukrainian-artists-cage-russians-like-animals/]Anything like this?[/url][/QUOTE] I murdered 3 russian babies with my bare hands today

Also is it just me or does this guy seem like another oligarch? A billionaire in Eastern Europe, especially in a country like Ukraine, is never a good sign.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44915789]The KPU is fucked anyway, I'll be surprised if anyone votes for them I murdered 3 russian babies with my bare hands today[/QUOTE] Glad to know you think nationalism is a joke and approve banning of parties. Also, a surprising number of people vote KPU, they have a decent amount of Rada seats. Also, it looks like based on turnout (not even factoring in who the East voted for), [url=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/%D0%AF%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%86%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%85_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2014_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85.PNG]Poroshenko is president of half of Ukraine.[/url] Also, [url=http://www.electoralgeography.com/new/en/wp-content/gallery/ukraine2010/2010-ukraine-presidential-raions-turnout-english.PNG]compared to 4 years ago, even discounting Donbass, the difference is amazing[/url]. Kharkov is of particular interest, being as it's not separated from Ukraine, one of the most economically important Oblasts, and has been the scene of street battles between militias. All the more reason to divide the country and be done with it.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44915977]Glad to know you think nationalism is a joke and approve banning of parties. Also, a surprising number of people vote KPU, they have a decent amount of Rada seats. Also, it looks like based on turnout (not even factoring in who the East voted for), [url=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/%D0%AF%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%86%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%85_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2014_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85.PNG]Poroshenko is president of half of Ukraine.[/url] Also, [url=http://www.electoralgeography.com/new/en/wp-content/gallery/ukraine2010/2010-ukraine-presidential-raions-turnout-english.PNG]compared to 4 years ago, even discounting Donbass, the difference is amazing[/url]. Kharkov is of particular interest, being as it's not separated from Ukraine, one of the most economically important Oblasts, and has been the scene of street battles between militias. All the more reason to divide the country and be done with it.[/QUOTE] The nationalists ARE a joke. They barely have any support at all and won't make it into the next parliament. Just like the commies. Also, 50% turnout in the East isn't bad at all, so calm your tits And I don't support banning the communists. Because no one will vote for them anyway. Simonenko got only 1% on the election

[QUOTE=Conscript;44915977]Glad to know you think nationalism is a joke[/QUOTE] i think nationalism is a giant joke too

Please, I'm not stupid. Nationalism is institutionalized in Ukraine, which is why [url=http://www.istpravda.com.ua/short/2011/02/18/25493/]shit like this happens[/url] and [url=http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/politics/article/greek-community-terrified-over-developments-in-ukraine]the bills immediately proposed months ago after the coup speak volumes, as does the minority language law[/url] I have no idea why you keep saying they don't have support. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Svoboda-2012.png]They clearly do[/url], and so do their more moderate cousins in Tymoshenko's Fatherland. Also, you have yet to explain why the hell the interim government would award cabinet posts including National Security Chief to them, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidan_People's_Union]I guess a reward for having an important role in 'National Resistance' during Maidan and doing the majority of radical occupations of government buildings and attacks on police?[/url] [quote] Simonenko got only 1% on the election[/quote] Once again, Ukrainian politics is not encapsulated in a single presidential election, especially one the East had such a piss poor turnout on and probably concentrated their votes on the Regions party for being the only real practical option. [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_oblasts_kpu.png]Also, plenty of people vote for them, they have 32 seats in the Rada[/url]. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;44916120]i think nationalism is a giant joke too[/QUOTE] So you think nationalism is harmless?

[QUOTE=Conscript;44916170]Please, I'm not stupid. Nationalism is institutionalized in Ukraine, which is why [url=http://www.istpravda.com.ua/short/2011/02/18/25493/]shit like this happens[/url] and [url=http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/politics/article/greek-community-terrified-over-developments-in-ukraine]the bills immediately proposed months ago after the coup speak volumes, as does the minority language law[/url][/QUOTE] The son of a prominent nationalist and nazi collaborator says something dumb => nationalism is institutionalized in Ukraine. Riiiight [QUOTE=Conscript;44916170]I have no idea why you keep saying they don't have support. [/QUOTE] Because I live in what you like to call "Banderistan" and know what the fuck I'm taking about [QUOTE=Conscript;44916170]Also, you have yet to explain why the hell the interim government would award cabinet posts including National Security Chief to them, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidan_People's_Union]I guess a reward for having an important role in 'National Resistance' during Maidan and doing the majority of radical occupations of government buildings and attacks on police?[/url][/QUOTE] I didn't elect the interim government and I didn't support them, I do not speak for their dumb actions

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44916223]The son of a prominent nationalist and nazi collaborator says something dumb => nationalism is institutionalized in Ukraine. Riiiight[/quote] You should probably read that article again, it has to do with the state punishing Symonenko for claiming a well-loved Ukrainian UPA patriot was a Nazi collaborator, since official narrative differs. These historical battles are happening all the time in Ukraine, and it's because of nationalism. It's interesting how much the legacy of Barbarossa warps the politics of your country. [quote]Because I live in what you like to call "Banderistan" and know what the fuck I'm taking about[/quote] Cool, I have friends there too. I really don't give a shit about your little appeal here, as I'm the only one citing anything. [quote]I didn't elect the interim government and I didn't support them, I do not speak for their dumb actions[/QUOTE] You either support Maidan and answer for its consequences, such as the coup it produced (and Maidan's radical elements, who played a key role) or you oppose it. There is no in-between, you don't exist in a bubble and get to pick and choose who is 'nice'.