'Euthanize' autistic teen for being 'nuisance,' says anonymous letter - Polidicks

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;41899712]It would be. Executions wouldn't surpass the amount of money their demographics uses simply in special education money, not to mention all of their other costs and burdens on their family. I know it's wrong and I'm not saying it should be done, and I HAVE to say this with every single post otherwise someone will twist my words and make it sound like I'm ready to line them up for the gas chambers.[/QUOTE] IT would be cheaper to genetically engineer kids in the womb to stop it, and if that doesn't work, well, yeah Euthanizing a human being kind of takes a LOT of PLANNING and money, that, and add on controversy, and the fact that they'll say "Execution for being different", and the fact that the family will get an insane amount of horrible publicity oh and its expensive oh and funeral costs no, thats insane, unless its a physical handy cap with assisted suicide, it just doesn't work. At all.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;41899712]It would be. Executions wouldn't surpass the amount of money their demographic uses simply in special education money, not to mention all of their other costs and burdens on their family. I know it's wrong and I'm not saying it should be done, and I HAVE to say this with every single post otherwise someone will twist my words and make it sound like I'm ready to line them up for the gas chambers.[/QUOTE] Yeah it would cost less if you gassed them en mass and buried them in a mass grave.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;41899779]Dude, I'm not proposing we kill anyone older than like a year, and preferably not even that. There are abortions of perfectly normal children every day, this shouldn't be a stretch. I'm not saying we put an 18 year old to the electic chair because he's down syndrome or something. You're misunderstanding my point.[/QUOTE] I'm not misunderstanding it, you just aren't clarifying it now you're making yourself seem like you're trying to go deeper into "but its not like that" to not sound as bad, I believe you, but you seriously aren't helping us understand so in the end, I guess I am misunderstanding, but I can't help it, you calling them parasites REALLY isn't good.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41898705]Of course an autistic child is a nuisance, I don't really see why the woman is a terrible person for being pissed off, just because the kid is autistic doesn't take away the woman's ability/right/justification for being pissed.[/QUOTE] The kid can't do nothing about his autism, but being an asshole is a conscious choice.

[QUOTE=J!NX;41899791]I'm not misunderstanding it, you just aren't clarifying it now you're making yourself seem like you're trying to go deeper into "but its not like that" to not sound as bad, I believe you, but you seriously aren't helping us understand so in the end, I guess I am misunderstanding, but I can't help it[/QUOTE] An example would be something along the lines of [url=http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2547]increased prenatal screening[/url] is what I took to be his point. And before anyone jumps on me about "Down Syndrome != Autism", the point I'm trying to make is increased screening and risk assessment.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;41899849]That's because I've been focusing on trying people to admit that they do have a detrimental effect on their families and on society. If people want to paint me as some horrible neo-nazi that's fine, but I'd much rather we try and phase these crippling disorders out of the population with abortions whenever they can be detected before birth. That's what I'd like to see happen and that's what I've already tried to support in my previous posts but some people jump the gun. But please for the love of god no one turn this into an abortion debate. Here is my entire opinion: the woman is a cunt but she isn't 100% wrong. If a child with a disorder cannot help itself to the extent that my German Shepherd can, [B]then euthanasia should have been considered at birth[/B].[/QUOTE] thats where your wrong its impossible to know if treatment would have worked or not every situation is different. For example, some kids with down syndrome are well below anyone. Some even have HOMES and FAMILIES. [t]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/29/article-1223790-070133B6000005DC-861_964x662.jpg[/t] this is the art of an autistic man euthanasia would have made it so this amazing skill would have never been discovered.

[QUOTE]You should take him to nature trails or the park or something[/QUOTE] Well she has a point, that's reasonable, a bit rude though.... [QUOTE]Should donate his non-retarded body parts to science, kill him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE] what the [I]fuck[/I]

[QUOTE=J!NX;41899856]thats where your wrong its impossible to know if treatment would have worked or not every situation is different. For example, some kids with down syndrome are well below anyone. Some even have HOMES and FAMILIES. [t]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/29/article-1223790-070133B6000005DC-861_964x662.jpg[/t] this is the art of an autistic man euthanasia would have made it so this amazing skill would have never been discovered.[/QUOTE] What does this have to do with anything? He's suggesting people consider euthanasia during pregnancy to quell crippling disorders, no one is harmed in such an event, and in fact people are saved from the unfortunate situation of having to live with/be someone with a crippling disorder. No matter how "normal" you want to make their lives seem, it still isn't an okay thing. (by okay I mean, you know, it isn't a positive thing)

Elizabeth Moon's "The Speed of Dark" is actually a really good book which explores the speculative side of near future autism treatment. As a parent of an autistic child, she essentially suggests that, in the future, there will be advanced behavioral programs which identify autism spectrum disorders early on and give autistic individuals the proper teaching programs they need in order to process information at a more reasonable process. Her main character is basically an independent autistic individual who ends up [sp]going through experimental treatment that installs a chip into his brain that actively makes the connections that his neurological development failed to formulate[/sp]. It's a really interesting book and it explores how autism can be treated, and it's very clear that no one believes programs like infantile euthanasia and mercy killing are acceptable alternatives. Although the bigger also asks a bigger question - what makes an autistic individual "inferior" to other individuals? The main character is actually a much better person than most of the "normal" people in his life.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;41899894]That's why I listed it as my opinion. I wouldn't take that risk. That sevant is probably one in a million. They're not conscious in the womb anyways, they don't have personal connections and jobs and families. They will feel no pain.[/QUOTE] you just said "But please for the love of god no one turn this into an abortion debate." I was replying to "At birth" I agree with abortion but this is silly, and no, its not one in a million at all [QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41899891]What does this have to do with anything? He's suggesting people consider euthanasia during pregnancy to quell crippling disorders, no one is harmed in such an event, and in fact people are saved from the unfortunate situation of having to live with/be someone with a crippling disorder. No matter how "normal" you want to make their lives seem, it still isn't an okay thing. (by okay I mean, you know, it isn't a positive thing)[/QUOTE] and I was saying don't euthanize at birth because you don't know how it will go

[QUOTE=Reimu;41899897]Elizabeth Moon's "The Speed of Dark" is actually a really good book which explores the speculative side of near future autism treatment. As a parent of an autistic child, she essentially suggests that, in the future, there will be advanced behavioral programs which identify autism spectrum disorders early on and give autistic individuals the proper teaching programs they need in order to process information at a more reasonable process. Her main character is basically an independent autistic individual who ends up [sp]going through experimental treatment that installs a chip into his brain that actively makes the connections that his neurological development failed to formulate[/sp]. It's a really interesting book and it explores how autism can be treated, and it's very clear that no one believes programs like infantile euthanasia and mercy killing are acceptable alternatives. Although the bigger also asks a bigger question - what makes an autistic individual "inferior" to other individuals? The main character is actually a much better person than most of the "normal" people in his life.[/QUOTE] Nothing makes them "inferior" per se, but it is quite clear that being autistic is a bad thing because it's literally a failure of the human mind to do what it should naturally be doing.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDGvquzn2k[/media] more stuff [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBpLGE_Rl1w[/media]

[QUOTE=J!NX;41899902]you just said "But please for the love of god no one turn this into an abortion debate." I was replying to "At birth" I agree with abortion but this is silly, and no, its not one in a million at all and I was saying don't euthanize at birth because you don't know how it will go[/QUOTE] Don't know how..what will go? If we abort the baby, the baby is gone, if you're attempting to suggest that we could never be sure that the kid would get downs syndrome/autism, I don't see how that matters, because you're not even killing anything, you aren't taking away a consciousness, you're taking away a mass of cells that had pretty high risk. It would always be worth it, because there would be no families divided and strained due to a terrible ailment. Also I don't really think there is much of a chance of a false reading, this is pretty concise and legitimate science...

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41899911]Nothing makes them "inferior" per se, but it is quite clear that being autistic is a bad thing because it's literally a failure of the human mind to do what it should naturally be doing.[/QUOTE] Socially though "disabled" and "inferior" often walk hand-in-hand, and it acts as a buffer towards ignorant people who say things like "the only solution for prevention is euthanasia" and "autistic people will never be able to operate in society." It contributes to a climate where autism is seen as some sort of representation of inferiority within the individual, which isn't true. There's certainly a stigma regarding disabilities, and I think a lot of non-disabled people make stupid assumptions rooted in the idea that autistic individuals are automatically lesser people because they can't function the same way others can.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];41898525']I'm just curious what that "noise he makes" is.[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIATBs[/media]

[QUOTE=Reimu;41899930]Socially though "disabled" and "inferior" often walk hand-in-hand, and it acts as a buffer towards ignorant people who say things like "the only solution for prevention is euthanasia" and "autistic people will never be able to operate in society." It contributes to a climate where autism is seen as some sort of representation of inferiority within the individual, which isn't true. There's certainly a stigma regarding disabilities, and I think a lot of non-disabled people make stupid assumptions rooted in the idea that autistic individuals are automatically lacking in terms of human functioning.[/QUOTE] Inferior in what way? It is clear that mentally retarded people are inferior in most ways to able minded people, and same with autistic people. Of course there are cases where autistic people are pretty much normal, but the autism itself is still...bad, and is still easy to consider "inferior" in most contexts and usages of the word. I don't mean for what I'm saying to be offensive. [editline]19th August 2013[/editline] And it isn't usually that they don't just "function the same way", it's often that they function poorly in the critical elements and traits that society requires for furthering oneself. [editline]19th August 2013[/editline] In a society purely about friendships and relationships between individuals and social connects etc, sure, they don't have to be inferior, they're just different, but in a society almost all about jobs/work/education, then...it really changes up.

Autism typically isn't diagnosed until three or four years of age, and before then it's tricky to damn near impossible to know if a child is autistic or if they're even likely to be, so abortion isn't even within the realm of possibility, and it surely isn't within the realm of humaneness.

jesus this is like iago posting again

[QUOTE=PolarEventide;41899989]Autism typically isn't diagnosed until three or four years of age, and before then it's tricky to damn near impossible to know if a child is autistic or if they're even likely to be, so abortion isn't even within the realm of possibility, and it surely isn't within the realm of humaneness.[/QUOTE] How is an abortion inhumane? A fetus is not a person, stopping a fetus before it traps a consciousness that has to deal with the severe ailments of the body is the most humane option possible. There's nothing inhumane about aborting a fetus with a severe disorder, people often make the argument that suicide isn't selfish, and to force people to not commit suicide is even more selfish because a person shouldn't have to live with pain, then it stands to reason that allowing a human to be born with a severe disorder is extremely selfish.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41899891]What does this have to do with anything? He's suggesting people consider euthanasia during pregnancy to quell crippling disorders, no one is harmed in such an event, and in fact people are saved from the unfortunate situation of having to live with/be someone with a crippling disorder. No matter how "normal" you want to make their lives seem, it still isn't an okay thing. (by okay I mean, you know, it isn't a positive thing)[/QUOTE] i'll agree with you here. i think it's unfair to expect people to willingly give birth to a kid with mental or physical defects if it can be avoided [editline]20th August 2013[/editline] it's ratchet but i mean it's bad situation either way [editline]20th August 2013[/editline] i feel like this would be a pro-choice issue

Lambda I think you should stop before you get another month ban. We have no "standard" or "normal" baseline human mind. Autistic people are different, not inferior.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41900012]How is an abortion inhumane? A fetus is not a person, stopping a fetus before it traps a consciousness that has to deal with the severe ailments of the body is the most humane option possible. There's nothing inhumane about aborting a fetus with a severe disorder, people often make the argument that suicide isn't selfish, and to force people to not commit suicide is even more selfish because a person shouldn't have to live with pain, then it stands to reason that allowing a human to be born with a severe disorder is extremely selfish.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I worded what I was saying poorly. I meant that since autism cannot be diagnosed until three or four years of age or even later in some cases, abortion isn't possible, and euthanasia of a child at age of diagnosis would be inhumane.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;41900028]Lambda I think you should stop before you get another month ban. We have no "standard" or "normal" baseline human mind. Autistic people are different, not inferior.[/QUOTE] How do we have no standard human brain? That's like saying we have no standard human body, we certainly do, it's dictated by the genetics of our species.

As someone who lives next to an autistic guy; he is [I]incredibly[/I] annoying. I can understand this woman being driven to the point of writing this letter; everyone exaggerates their feeling when they're really mad. But no, people shouldn't be euthanised, unless they decide they want to.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41900048]How do we have no standard human brain? That's like saying we have no standard human body, we certainly do, it's dictated by the genetics of our species.[/QUOTE] Those genetics have millions of variations, as we are an evolving species.

[QUOTE=PolarEventide;41900036]Sorry, I worded what I was saying poorly. I meant that since autism cannot be diagnosed until three or four years of age or even later in some cases, abortion isn't possible, and euthanasia of a child at age of diagnosis would be inhumane.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, very much agree, it would be good if we could figure out how to find out whether a fetus was going to develop autism, I don't really see why we couldn't, if we could read their genes then we could read how their brain is going to be made, autism is likely genetic, because everything about our body is genetic. But that's a different topic, for a different thread.

If you look at the human brain within autistic individuals, most autistic individuals aren't functioning within a few critical areas - usually involving information processing. Or, as you pointed out, they aren't functioning with "critical" aspects that society focuses on. That's understandable - it's a disability. There's nothing wrong with admitting that an autistic or challenged person is disabled. The problem arises when that disability is seen as some sort of representation that the individual themselves is stupid, broadly incapable, or otherwise lesser of a human being because of their developmental disability. Because many people widely misunderstand autism's operation, they make assumptions about how autistic people operate or think. Struggles with information processing isn't an inherent sign of stupidity or inferiority. An inability to communicate in a fully-functioning manner doesn't mean an individual is lesser than others. We should understand that autistic people are disabled, but we still need to see them as human beings. Which consequently means that we can't treat them like cattle and push for euthanasia and abortions because it's "in their best interest." And autistic individuals could theoretically function on their own if the technology, research, and disability education one day finds a way to compensate for developmental challenges. There are many individuals with autistic spectrum disorders that can function relatively independently, too, depending on how severe their autism is. Especially individuals with disorders like Asperger's.

[QUOTE=PolarEventide;41900060]Those genetics have millions of variations, as we are an evolving species.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but that doesn't change that we have a standard mind and body. This is obvious, mutations happen, and when a mutation allows for the standards to be deviated from enough, it can be considered a disorder. Just because it's a disorder doesn't mean it's bad, but it can be, and in the case of autism, I'd say it is.

[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41900062]Ah yes, very much agree, it would be good if we could figure out how to find out whether a fetus was going to develop autism, I don't really see why we couldn't, if we could read their genes then we could read how their brain is going to be made, autism is likely genetic, because everything about our body is genetic. But that's a different topic, for a different thread.[/QUOTE] The complexity of autism leads experts to believe that there are probably several different possible causes for different disorders on the autism spectrum, and identifying all of those causes may never be possible. Autism is consistently becoming more and more common, however. In general, I believe that if there were a way to identify that a child would be born with a mental disorder then I suppose the parents have the right to choose to abort that child, but I think that sets a horrible precedent. Would it also be fair for parents to abort a child if there were a way to know from birth that that child would grow up to be gay?

[QUOTE=Reimu;41900072]If you look at the human brain within autistic individuals, most autistic individuals aren't functioning within a few critical areas - usually involving information processing. Or, as you pointed out, they aren't functioning with "critical" aspects that society focuses on. That's understandable - it's a disability. There's nothing wrong with admitting that an autistic or challenged person is disabled. The problem arises when that disability is seen as some sort of representation that the individual themselves is stupid, broadly incapable, or otherwise lesser of a human being because of their developmental disability. Because many people widely misunderstand autism's operation, they make assumptions about how autistic people operate or think. Struggles with information processing isn't an inherent sign of stupidity or inferiority. An inability to communicate in a fully-functioning manner doesn't mean an individual is lesser than others. We should understand that autistic people are disabled, but we still need to see them as human beings. Which consequently means that we can't treat them like cattle and push for euthanasia and abortions because it's "in their best interest." And autistic individuals could theoretically function on their own if the technology, research, and disability education one day finds a way to compensate for developmental challenges. There are many individuals with autistic spectrum disorders that can function relatively independently, too, depending on how severe their autism is. Especially individuals with disorders like Asperger's.[/QUOTE] Well, we can treat fetuses like anything we want because they aren't people. That's the critical thing here, and that's why murderous euthanasia is horrible, inefficient, and not even worth it. But to quell fetuses isn't hurting anyone, and like I said, I think it'd be good to save a consciousness from the pain of autism.