Saudi Arabia entering economic troubles as oil prices remain low. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49412816]what's more likely is the collapse of the country itself into the quarreling tribes that lived there a century ago[/QUOTE] Maybe. The UAE did a great job at uniting the gulf tribes (with the exceptions of Qatar and Bahrain) I don't see a balkanization of Arabia happening anytime soon, Saudi Arabia is pretty homogeneous in a lot of ways.

They have known for a couple decades that oil money will eventually run out, the arab states havent been sitting on their asses but they are still far from independent of the lucrative oil money I doubt they will collapse though, they just have to adjust budgets

It isn't always pretty when the chickens come home to roost.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49414271]Both are extremely dependent upon oil. Kuwait hasn't diversified their economy at all (it's gotten worse over time). Dubai had to get bailed out by its oil rich neighbours in 2008, and the vast bulk of government revenue and exports is composed of oil. The "diverse" aspects of their economies are superfluous at best, relying indirectly on oil and whatever capital they have in reserve. It's all either based on development and infrastructure growth (both of which have rapidly diminishing returns), or on providing services to population of losers who couldn't make it in the west and moved to Dubai to manage the kleptocratic economy. Dubai is still chronically dependent on oil (or what they have in reserves as a result of it) both directly and indirectly. The problem is that they can't. Most of these countries are little more than autocracies run by inbreds that siphon off public finances. Their native populations are indolent, prone to aggression, coddled by extensive state social services/subsidies that prevented the arab spring spreading there, without skills, often unemployed, and poorly educated. Nepotism and corruption are both commonplace and are not just accepted, but actively encouraged. Looking at tourism for instance, Dubai is built in one of the most inhospitable places on the planet (made worse by the encroach of global warming). It has to import virtually all food and desalinate all water at great expense, while the repressive social/political atmosphere and the haphazard way in which the city has been built works against it (it has no proper sanitation network and raw sewage is dumped into the sea). These countries largely survive on a mixture of luck, reserves, and goodwill, all of which are running out.[/QUOTE]You're making it sound like they're just full of lazy retards who don't know what they're doing and you're wrong, there's clearly something there if they're attracting foreign, Western investors to buy into what they have going on. So I don't know why you're claiming their increasingly diverse economy is "superfluous at best" given that they have foreign money going [I]in[/I] and not money going [I]out.[/I] Meanwhile Kuwait's had a hard time because it's really just a political entity that sprung up around oil wells, they don't really have [I]anything[/I] else to rely on. What exactly do you expect them to do when their only resource is oil? Most of their arable land was completely fucking eradicated when Iraqi troops set fire to the wells, so much so that they're currently the only country that's looking to rely mostly on hydroponically grown food and fishing. Aside from some political bullshit that has prevented economic reforms they're not at all a mismanaged country and certainly not a "kleptocratic economy" considering how much aid they willingly give to developing countries. You keep saying "these countries" when really, who the fuck are you talking about? Your points apply to maybe the UAE and to Saudi Arabia, so I'm not sure if you're including anyone else in there too.

[QUOTE=insane taco;49414123]Gas is 1.59 a gallon here in missouri[/QUOTE] Saw it for 1.46 today.

[QUOTE=insane taco;49414123]Gas is 1.59 a gallon here in missouri[/QUOTE] I'm jealous. $5.74/gallon here. Better than the $6.6 it was couple years back though

It's at $1.12/litre here in my area, though they're predicting it to keep falling (maybe back down to 99c like it was early this year)

And I was just talking to my Saudi roommate yesterday on how they're going to get fucked over soon by depending on oil :v: I thought what I heard about Saudi were myths,it was surprising to hear that a lot of it was true when he moved in

This is their own fault; they're the ones who deliberately flooded the market with their crude while trying to shut down the US's shale oil fracking industry, making the US dependent on Saudi crude oil, but they probably didn't expect that these prices would stay so low for so long. It won't be long until it starts affecting the rest of the Gulf Cooperation Council.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;49412905]you got it That's pretty much the tale. And Canada is also suffering it. Yay political power struggles![/QUOTE] I thought it was the other way around? South American countries -and Iran- are suffering much more than Saudi Arabia.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49415893]You're making it sound like they're just full of lazy retards who don't know what they're doing[/quote] That's because it is. saudi arabia is a religious tinderbox kept in careful balance through strategic spending and brutal repression by an unaccountable and corrupt government. virtually none of the economic or social reforms or policies put in place have led to the development of a coherent civil society, sustainable economy, or competent government. [quote]there's clearly something there if they're attracting foreign, Western investors to buy into what they have going on.[/quote] it's called oil money. investors pile into the high-risk high-yield markets all the time (just look at north korea). venezuelas economy shrank 10% this year and the country is falling apart but that hasn't stopped their bonds from performing well on the markets. the only thing attracting westerners at the moment is oil or subcontracting out some kind of service for the saudi state (like healthcare or sanitation). there are no skilled people in the country, no other natural resources, no agriculture, no manufacturing (either light or heavy, low skill or high skill), almost no tourism save for religious pilgrimages, and virtually the entire economy is run by the state and it is largely run by hundreds of inbred aristocrats who occupy sinecures or siphon off monies for themselves [quote]So I don't know why you're claiming their increasingly diverse economy is "superfluous at best" given that they have foreign money going [I]in[/I] and not money going [I]out.[/I][/quote] saudi arabia has been hemorrhaging money constantly and their economy hasn't diversified at all despite every single one of their economic policies since 1970 explicitly calling for diversification. the average saudi makes less money these days than they did in the 1980s, and what diversified economy exists depends on oil to subsidize it (cheap oil fuelling desalination for agriculture for instance). the OP story itself even showcases how fragile their method for earning foreign monies is. saudi arabia has a massive deficit and it is burning through all of its foreign currency reserves in rapid order. their stock markets are flagging, their currency peg is getting harder to maintain, and they are considering introducing taxes to recoup losses (the moment they do so will drive away half of the expats) [quote]You keep saying "these countries" when really, who the fuck are you talking about? Your points apply to maybe the UAE and to Saudi Arabia, so I'm not sure if you're including anyone else in there too.[/QUOTE] qatar was explicitly mentioned earlier, and it definitely does apply to the UAE. kuwait still suffers from similar problems (name me a single patent from kuwait lol), while virtually all of the other arab economies in the region are indirectly dependent on their neighbours to prop up their economy.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49416977]That's because it is. saudi arabia is a religious tinderbox kept in careful balance through strategic spending and brutal repression by an unaccountable and corrupt government. virtually none of the economic or social reforms or policies put in place have led to the development of a coherent civil society, sustainable economy, or competent government. [/QUOTE] Essentially all Middle-Eastern Nations are like this. They're designed to be as coup-proof as possible. The idea is that no-one in the nation should have enough power to challenge the monarch/dictator because no-one is willing to work together. They encourage tribal hatred and create competing government departments and then somewhat evenly distribute the power. The end result is a bloated and ineffectual country.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49416977]That's because it is. saudi arabia is[/QUOTE]not what I was talking about. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49416977]qatar was explicitly mentioned earlier, and it definitely does apply to the UAE. kuwait still suffers from similar problems (name me a single patent from kuwait lol), while virtually all of the other arab economies in the region are indirectly [B]dependent on their neighbours to prop up their economy.[/B][/QUOTE]Huh? Source on this because Iraq and Syria were both economic rivals with Saudi Arabia for decades, they would have both benefited from Saudi Arabia imploding. Yemen is basically pigeonholed into being a Saudi satellite state and Qatar is teetering on that as well, they both would benefit from Saudi Arabia's collapse; as would Jordan, Egypt, and fucking definitely Iran who is in direct competition with the rest of the countries in the region. I don't even know what you're talking about here, nothing you're saying applies to any of these smaller countries besides the UAE, and even then it's dubious because the type of despotism in the UAE is different than it is in Saudi Arabia. Hell, even little Kuwait currently has the highest valued currency in the world thanks to it's careful financial maneuvering. Since oil is literally all they have to work with they're doing phenomenally well given the rock bottom prices of oil currently, and yet they're still trying to improve their country and get back on track to diversify out of oil. [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] Also what the fuck do patents have to do with anything anyway? I'm not even sure why I'm linking this shit: [url]http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/kuwait-sees-fastest-growth-of-gcc-countries-in-obtaining-us-patents-1861852.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49417015]not what I was talking about. Huh? Source on this because Iraq and Syria were both economic rivals with Saudi Arabia for decades, they would have both benefited from Saudi Arabia imploding. Yemen is basically pigeonholed into being a Saudi satellite state and Qatar is teetering on that as well, they both would benefit from Saudi Arabia's collapse; as would Jordan, Egypt, and fucking definitely Iran who is in direct competition with the rest of the countries in the region. I don't even know what you're talking about here, nothing you're saying applies to any of these smaller countries besides the UAE, and even then it's dubious because the type of despotism in the UAE is different than it is in Saudi Arabia. Hell, even little Kuwait currently has the highest valued currency in the world thanks to it's careful financial maneuvering. Since oil is literally all they have to work with they're doing phenomenally well given the rock bottom prices of oil currently, and yet they're still trying to improve their country and get back on track to diversify out of oil.[/QUOTE] the point i'm trying to make is that their societies are not able to diversify their way out of oil. these were countries which sat next to the worlds biggest trading routes for the best part of thousands of years, yet until the 20th century their main industries were either piracy or subsistence i don't get what relevance the politics has here because we are talking about their dysfunctional economic and social systems to give an idea of typical exports for qatar (saudi arabia, the UAE, and kuwait are virtually identical) [img_thumb]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Qatar_Export_Treemap.png/800px-Qatar_Export_Treemap.png[/img_thumb] (this is known as maroon syndrome) this here largely represents where the governments of these countries get their monies from. they have failed to (and cannot) diversify because their governments are not capable of it. the way things are going, most of these countries will have gone bankrupt at least once in the next forty years [quote]Over 50 of the approximately 80 U.S. patents issued to Kuwaiti citizens in 2013 were filed by inventors who received support from SACGC. [/quote] lmao 80 patents. that's even less than north dakota had in 2013: [url]http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/cst_utl.htm[/url] it's a drop in the ocean, especially considering the vast amounts available to spend on education and the fact that much poorer (or recently impoverish) countries have comparable or superior levels of innovation

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417041]the point i'm trying to make is that their societies are not able to diversify their way out of oil.[/QUOTE]So they should just give up and collectively commit suicide? Okay. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417041]these were countries which sat next to the worlds biggest trading routes for the best part of thousands of years, yet until the 20th century their main industries were either piracy or subsistence[/QUOTE]Yes because they were next to the biggest trade routes in history and it was easy to raid them. Oh, and Baghdad and other cities like it were historical links along that route, so... no, their primary industry was [I]trade.[/I] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417041]i don't get what relevance the politics has here because we are talking about their dysfunctional economic and social systems[/QUOTE]It's relevant because you're arguing about their dysfunctional economic and social systems [I]when they actually do not have even remotely similar economic or social systems at all.[/I] You're basically saying, "it is the Middle East, so it is all shit," which is about as accurate and as insightful as saying the entire place would look way fucking better if it was all radioactive glass. You can't compare the Ba'athist governments with Saudi Arabia because they are fundamentally at their very core very different, and you're doing exactly that. Essentially you're saying all the brown people are stupid and dumb, I haven't heard you once mention Israel's economic issues... or don't those count? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417041]this here largely represents where the governments of these countries get their monies from. they have failed to (and cannot) diversify because their governments are not capable of it. the way things are going, most of these countries will have gone bankrupt at least once in the next forty years[/QUOTE]So they've failed? Completely? Huh, funny thing about that, [I]their economic plan extends into the 2030's so they're barely even started.[/I] Oil will [I]not[/I] go away in the next 40 years, but the goal of all GCC countries is to reduce their economic reliance on oil exports. (well, most, and this thread is about that big fat exception!) Some have gone further, some aren't really making much progress, but all in all they are putting in a real effort because alternative fuels are the future and their fossil fuels will soon be the past. When a country like Kuwait who has 10% of the known oil reserves is making serious efforts to reduce it's illiteracy, unemployment, and it's complete reliance on all that gooey black gold, then it should be a sign that [U]somebody[/U] in the region is waking the fuck up to reality. Saudi Arabia tried to wage a war with cheap shale oil and is losing, they did not prepare and they have not tried any of the things their smaller neighbors are trying right now, so stop fucking comparing them. [editline]29th December 2015[/editline] Oh, and about that price war? Rarely do you see the large guy who takes the gamble really feel the hurt like you're seeing here. All those little countries that you're asserting are run by crony despots? Yeah, they prepared for this sort of thing and have significant cash reserves on top of their other economic efforts. Saudi Arabia is the only one who's going to fall really fucking hard here, and while other countries like Qatar might get some serious economic troubles in the coming years it will not cripple them because they've already taken the first steps to bring their economy elsewhere.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49417122]So they should just give up and collectively commit suicide? Okay.[/quote] i don't see how that translates into telling millions of people to commit suicide, but the point i made is about their dysfunctional educational system, government, and civil society. none of their policies seek to remedy that and its why i think any attempts at economic diversification are doomed because they have nothing to support it once the oil money runs out [quote]Yes because they were next to the biggest trade routes in history and it was easy to raid them.[/quote] that's not an economy. [quote]It's relevant because you're arguing about their dysfunctional economic and social systems [I]when they actually do not have even remotely similar economic or social systems at all.[/I][/quote] could you detail these differences? saudi arabia, qatar, the UAE, and kuwait all have remarkably similar economies (and economic histories as well, given that until the 1960s many of them were desperately poor and irrelevant backwaters run by despotic postcolonial rulers) [quote]You can't compare the Ba'athist governments with Saudi Arabia because they are fundamentally at their very core very different[/quote] ba'athism has nothing to do with this, its irrelevant to the discussion here [quote]So they've failed? Completely? Huh, funny thing about that, [I]their economic plan extends into the 2030's so they're barely even started.[/I] Oil will [I]not[/I] go away in the next 40 years, but the goal of all GCC countries is to reduce their economic reliance on oil exports. Some have gone further, some aren't really making much progress, but all in all they are putting in a real effort because alternative fuels are the future and their fossil fuels will soon be the past.[/quote] to give an example, saudi arabia has been trying since 1970 to diversify their economy, increase native employment, and boost declining wages. the fact they haven't been able to make much appreciable improvement in those three areas for 45 years speaks more of failure than success the UAE has an economy that is more built around services, but it is still highly dependent on their oil rich neighbours to maintain these services. you're not getting the point that these lands are nearly inhospitable to human life and that people only move or work there because of the oil money (which will worsen as global warming kicks in). they are struggling to import enough food and desalinate enough water to maintain a growing population that is subsidized through a cheap and readily available energy source. most of their economic growth is built on the foundation of oil. the point is that once this model exhausts itself (which it is already in the process of doing so), it will contract in on itself. given their track record i have little hope for them unless the fundamental basis of their society changes [quote]Oh, and about that price war? Rarely do you see the large guy who takes the gamble really feel the hurt like you're seeing here. All those little countries that you're asserting are run by crony despots? Yeah, they prepared for this sort of thing and have significant cash reserves on top of their other economic efforts.[/quote] the only difference is that they will outlast saudi arabia by a few more years. they still suffer from the same basic problems i keep reiterating

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]i don't see how that translates into telling millions of people to commit suicide, but the point i made is about their dysfunctional educational system, government, and civil society. none of their policies seek to remedy that and its why i think any attempts at economic diversification are doomed because they have nothing to support it once the oil money runs out[/QUOTE]Here let me say it again but with kinder, simpler terms: so they should just give up and do nothing because you say it's futile? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]that's not an economy. [/QUOTE]Quote the full fucking thing next time, Baghdad was a link along that trade route and I pointed that out to counter your bullshit statement. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]could you detail these differences? saudi arabia, qatar, the UAE, and kuwait all have remarkably similar economies (and economic histories as well, given that until the 1960s many of them were desperately poor and irrelevant backwaters run by despotic postcolonial rulers)[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]ba'athism has nothing to do with this, its irrelevant to the discussion here[/QUOTE]So are we talking about just the Arabian peninsula here or what? You said "neighboring countries" and last time I checked Saudi Arabia bordered a major fucking Ba'athist country for decades up until we changed it's government. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]to give an example, saudi arabia has been trying since 1970 to diversify their economy, increase native employment, and boost declining wages. the fact they haven't been able to make much appreciable improvement in those three areas for 45 years speaks more of failure than success[/QUOTE]But I wasn't talking about Saudi Arabia? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]you're not getting the point that these lands are nearly inhospitable to human life and that people only move or work there because of the oil money (which will worsen as global warming kicks in). they are struggling to import enough food and desalinate enough water to maintain a growing population that is subsidized through a cheap and readily available energy source. most of their economic growth is built on the foundation of oil. the point is that once this model exhausts itself (which it is already in the process of doing so), it will contract in on itself.[/QUOTE]Haha, what? Aside from Kuwait and the UAE they don't import food they export it, and their water issues are not at all unique to the region and they're managing just fine. You wanted to talk about innovation? (I think you tried with that Kuwaiti patent comment) Yeah, the region's issues with water contribute to technological research that serve not just the Middle East but areas around the world and, quite possibly, lend something to processing water in space exploration applications. I mean this is completely unrelated to oil, which they have no short supply of by the way, and those efforts of development directly help the local economy and do provide jobs because you cannot import foreigners for literally everything, especially when you have an increasingly educated workforce that isn't so keen on leaving their home country and immigrating to a Western nation hostile to their religion and their skin color. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49417197]the only difference is that they will outlast saudi arabia by a few more years. they still suffer from the same basic problems i keep reiterating[/QUOTE]Do you have anything that supports this dubious assertion?

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49413311]Interesting. Is this model repeated in other oil rich states in the region?[/QUOTE] To an extent. I remember from people living in Kuwait that this was largely similar and other middle eastern petrol powers probably all apply to an extent.

[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;49413360]I saw gas at $1.85 a gallon yesterday. Still happy about that in the face of this news. Sorry Saudi Arabia but I'm not willing to spend $4 a gallon so you can sustain an outmoded government and economic model.[/QUOTE] Gasoline near my work is $1.67 :v:

[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;49413360]I saw gas at $1.85 a gallon yesterday. Still happy about that in the face of this news. Sorry Saudi Arabia but I'm not willing to spend $4 a gallon so you can sustain an outmoded government and economic model.[/QUOTE] Been stable at $1.62/gal where I live for a week and a half now. I'm loving it and so is my P71 Crown Vic.

[QUOTE=TestECull;49418265]Been stable at $1.62/gal where I live for a week and a half now. I'm loving it and so is my P71 Crown Vic.[/QUOTE] All my buddies give me shit for driving a prius, but bitch please. This mileage

[quote]You said "neighboring countries" and last time I checked Saudi Arabia bordered a major fucking Ba'athist country for decades up until we changed it's government.[/quote] you've obviously been excluding oman, jordan, and egypt, which is fair enough, but you don't need to complain about me excluding iraq because it's irrelevant to the discussion. i've been focusing on qatar, the UAE, kuwait, etc. these countries mentioned above are all badly-run, their only economic asset is oil (anybody else saying otherwise is a liar), and they have to import everything at high expense (including skilled workers). literally the only reason that anybody does business in these countries is because they provide massive and unsustainably high bonuses and incentives for companies and individuals to work there. [quote]But I wasn't talking about Saudi Arabia?[/quote] kuwait hasn't had a single major diversification project in the past quarter century. about 80% of the UAE state budget is oil. this is a general rule - most projects are state-sponsored flagship ones that don't really create much more wealth or the conditions for future wealth generation. even the ones that are finished get bogged down in a quagmire of bureaucracy and nepotism, with monies skimmed off through corruption and incompetence [quote]Haha, what? Aside from Kuwait and the UAE they don't import food they export it[/quote] [url]http://www.arabnews.com/news/558271[/url] saudis import 80% of their food lmao. i have no idea what you think the saudis export to make up for it because as far as i am aware they have little cropland and even less water to irrigate it with. [quote]and their water issues are not at all unique to the region and they're managing just fine[/quote] these places have no major water storage or reserves. they rely almost exclusively on desalination plants, which are extremely expensive and can only be economical at present because the arab states which operate them heavily subsidize them. there is no other water left now because all of the groundwater has already been sucked up, and rainfall is extremely poor. water management in these countries is largely unsustainable. nobody looks at dubai and thinks "sustainable" because they have golf-courses in the middle of the desert kept lush by sprinklers, and even a building with a fake ski slope in it lol. it's vulgar excess that does not reflect upon a genius ability to conserve and produce water, but rather on their ability to waste it so brazenly [quote]especially when you have an increasingly educated workforce that isn't so keen on leaving their home country and immigrating to a Western nation hostile to their religion and their skin color. Do you have anything that supports this dubious assertion?[/QUOTE] [url]http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/25/investing/oil-prices-saudi-arabia-cash-opec-middle-east/[/url] the imf thinks that the UAE, Qatar, and kuwait can last maybe 20-30 years with major deficits. of course, while that is quite a while, it also means they won't have much money to invest into the projects they want to do. i don't know what the hell you mean about educated workforce because the vast majority of these countries populations are idiot western expats or enslaved asians who are the ones doing the real work (the asians are at least) while the native population lives off the government. despite decades of sending their best and brightest to places like oxford and cambridge, the emirs sons who return are about as mentally deficient as their inbred parents are, as is common among the aristocracy.

[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49418280]All my buddies give me shit for driving a prius, but bitch please. This mileage[/QUOTE] This shit has been godly for my motorcycle. Like 20 bucks a month on gas. It kicks so much ass.

This Sobotnik / JumpingJack fistfight is interesting.

[QUOTE=Sprockethead;49419103]This Sobotnik / JumpingJack fistfight is interesting.[/QUOTE] Not really, serious case of TLDR going on here.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]you've obviously been excluding oman, jordan, and egypt, which is fair enough, but you don't need to complain about me excluding iraq because it's irrelevant to the discussion. i've been focusing on qatar, the UAE, kuwait, etc.[/QUOTE]I was going with what you were doing... I mean if you want to [I]really[/I] get technical your point becomes even less and less true the moment we start going past Jordan. I like how you mention Egypt and then say,[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]these countries mentioned above are all badly-run, their only economic asset is oil (anybody else saying otherwise is a liar),[/QUOTE]Which is really fucking odd considering Egypt has next to no oil and has historically exported food, fresh water, and manufactured goods for, oh, fucking the better part of a century now. [I]No[/I] I haven't been addressing every single country, and even if I did you would still be saying, "NO, THEY ARE [B]ALL[/B] SAUDI ARABIA." Yeah I could talk about how the Jordanian economy has been supremely stable and it's probably one of the most progressive countries in the region but you would dismiss that too. I suspect if I went after Israel (who suffers many of the same problems) you'd fucking hop on that to white knight that shit though, and the last time I mentioned Israel you were unsurprisingly mute. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]kuwait hasn't had a single major diversification project in the past quarter century. about 80% of the UAE state budget is oil. this is a general rule - most projects are state-sponsored flagship ones that don't really create much more wealth or the conditions for future wealth generation. even the ones that are finished get bogged down in a quagmire of bureaucracy and nepotism, with monies skimmed off through corruption and incompetence[/QUOTE]Huh, again, the actual reality of Kuwait is the exact opposite of what you're saying about these countries. I've said this several times, they're doing A-OK politically, economically, financially... I mean what the fuck is the bar here anyway? You keep raising it and raising it, and I'm getting tired of chasing it. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]saudis import 80% of their food lmao. i have no idea what you think the saudis export to make up for it because as far as i am aware they have little cropland and even less water to irrigate it with.[/QUOTE]Again, I wasn't talking about Saudi Arabia. We were talking about [I]little[/I] countries. Little ones. Saudi Arabia is the big one. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]these places have no major water storage or reserves. they rely almost exclusively on desalination plants,[/QUOTE]Yes. They are coastal desert countries. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]which are extremely expensive and can only be economical at present because the arab states which operate them heavily subsidize them.[/QUOTE]Ah, so "trade fresh water" is subsidizing, okay, I thought that was what an economy was. My bad. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]water management in these countries is largely unsustainable.[/QUOTE]... Okay [I]what?[/I] Really, what? By that logic water management in the United fucking States is unsustainable because California has the same issues. No, no that isn't how this works, Sobotnik. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]nobody looks at dubai and thinks "sustainable" because they have golf-courses in the middle of the desert kept lush by sprinklers, and even a building with a fake ski slope in it lol.[/QUOTE]No, because that's not efficient use of a difficult to obtain resource. That's actually [U]wasting[/U] a resource and no, something like that is not sustainable at all and it wouldn't be anywhere else. It's not even sustainable here and Minnesota's got no shortage of water considering we're the "Land of 10,000 Lakes." [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]it's vulgar excess that does not reflect upon a genius ability to conserve and produce water, but rather on their ability to waste it so brazenly[/QUOTE]"One city is famous for it's wastefulness and excess. Wasting water isn't smart when you're in a desert, so therefore everyone there is retarded." Fanfuckingtastic logic Sobotnik. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822][url]http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/25/investing/oil-prices-saudi-arabia-cash-opec-middle-east/[/url] the imf thinks that the UAE, Qatar, and kuwait can last maybe 20-30 years with major deficits. of course, while that is quite a while, it also means they won't have much money to invest into the projects they want to do.[/QUOTE]Huh, aside from the UAE I was talking exactly about how Kuwait and Qatar prepared for this shit and smartly put aside reserves so they could focus on the economic growth and changes that they had planned. Congratulations Sobotnik your evidence actually proved exactly what I was saying. Meanwhile the UAE (and I haven't actually disagreed with you on this point specifically) has it's friends in high places to help it out for a bit while they try to do all those fanciful things they wanted. Meanwhile countries like Yemen, Oman, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and to a certain extent Iran and Iraq are all much better off and [I]have an entirely different economic situation than Saudi Arabia.[/I] You keep insisting they're all the same and [U]clearly[/U] they are not, but that leads me to my next point here and why I'm sick of this shit: [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49418822]i don't know what the hell you mean about educated workforce because the vast majority of these countries populations are idiot western expats or enslaved asians who are the ones doing the real work (the asians are at least) while the native population lives off the government. despite decades of sending their best and brightest to places like oxford and cambridge, the emirs sons who return are about as mentally deficient as their inbred parents are, as is common among the aristocracy.[/QUOTE]I've been getting a real strong, "yeah well I encountered some pakis at uni and fuck those brown cunts," vibe from you for awhile now. Especially since you're just blithely lumping in [I]all the brown people[/I] together and as far away as fucking Egypt and completely ignoring cultural boundaries. I don't think you'll find a single fucking person in the Middle East out side of Saudi Arabia who won't admit that Saudis are lazy and obnoxious, [I]that's a cultural boundary you can't ignore.[/I] When they're importing workers from other, more poorer, countries in the Middle East how the fuck can you call [I]everyone[/I] in the region lazy? You're also using the behaviors of a few spoiled, rich motherfuckers to paint everyone else with the same brush. Oh and as for what I've been talking about? [url]http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2015/03/27/education-in-kuwait-reflects-advice-on-how-to-reform[/url] They're making a serious effort and have seen improvements. I guess though since they're not up to [I]your[/I] standards they're just inbred retards though. You're basically saying "all them sand niggers are just goat fucken ree tards" at this point and no, I don't feel like arguing the finer points of eugenics with you. [QUOTE=Cocacoladude;49419948]Not really, serious case of TLDR going on here.[/QUOTE]Don't worry, I'm done.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49420974]I mean if you want to [I]really[/I] get technical your point becomes even less and less true the moment we start going past Jordan.[/quote] nobody cares about those countries because they're irrelevant to the discussion and i haven't been talking about them. we've been discussing primarily Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait, as has been repeated multiple times throughout the thread. [quote]Again, I wasn't talking about Saudi Arabia. We were talking about [I]little[/I] countries. Little ones. Saudi Arabia is the big one. By that logic water management in the United fucking States is unsustainable because California has the same issues.[/quote] UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia import the vast majority of their food and rely on water desalination for the majority of their fresh water. there's mentioning that the way water management is being done in california isn't exactly very sustainable - it is a major agricultural producer relying on limited water stocks which are under stress due to the impact of climate change - growing demand for water won't help. as for these arab nations, they have virtually no water at all. the point that i keep reiterating is that water desalination is an expensive solution to the problem. a city like Dubai is a place where architects (most of them with poor taste and bad skills) and engineers (most of them western rejects) wage an unwinnable war against nature, using an erratic and depleting stock of capital owned by a group of incompetent aristocrats. these cities have virtually no water reserves, so if there was a problem it would be a matter of days before you had a serious humanitarian crisis on your hands due to the lack of water. [quote]"One city is famous for it's wastefulness and excess. Wasting water isn't smart when you're in a desert, so therefore everyone there is retarded." Huh, aside from the UAE I was talking exactly about how Kuwait and Qatar prepared for this shit and smartly put aside reserves so they could focus on the economic growth and changes that they had planned.[/quote] all of the countries mentioned multiple times prior in the thread have the same issues with water management. they have vast and grandiose vanity projects that waste massive amounts of money, with much of the monies allocated for the projects mysteriously vanishing into the bank accounts of emirs or the occasional expat. "preparing for this shit" by simply building up reserves isn't how you prepare for a transition to a post-carbon economy. it requires the kind of political and social change that is hard to implement - they find it easier to delay their problems to the future. i don't think you realise just how bad corruption is there, how much money is spent on placating the population, the fact that they have no taxes (so when the oil age ends they have no way of raising future revenue), and that virtually of the industries which moved there did so because of generous business conditions including low taxes and government support (in spite of the horrible red tape and bureacracy). these projects you talk about have been attempted for decades, but their economies aren't any more diverse, any less dependent on oil, or their populations richer as a result. they aren't preparing for the future so much as they are trying to delay it. [quote]They're making a serious effort and have seen improvements. I guess though since they're not up to [I]your[/I] standards they're just inbred retards though. You're basically saying "all them sand niggers are just goat fucken ree tards" at this point and no, I don't feel like arguing the finer points of eugenics with you.[/quote] if you're ignoring the serious problems that have been bubbling underneath these countries for decades by claiming the person pointing them out is a racist then i don't really know what to say, other than that oman is populated by largely the same racial stock, yet it somehow enjoys moderate success despite having less oil then their more fortunate neighbours. countries which are poor, with limited resources, populated by brown people can be very successful (just look at morroco or botswana).

Take this to PM's you turbospergs, holy smokes.

[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49421434]Take this to PM's you turbospergs, holy smokes.[/QUOTE] "Turbospergs" because they have more than a shallow, CNN understanding of the region and its issues and they're having one of the more interesting exchanges I've seen on FP in months.

SA doesn't really have much of a future in terms of progression beyond keeping the monarchy and the upper classes rich and powerful, whatever way you look at it.