Hilary Clinton: "Don't let anyone tell you businesses create jobs."
74 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Brt5470;46331339]I know what she's saying, but she's going about it a bad way. Businesses are the jobs for the most part, but they don't have jobs unless something needs to be done.
Like in the case of Kansas, removing all taxes for some business doesn't proportionally create jobs if the business already has enough people.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that Neoclassical economics treats labor like any other material; that having more money means people will spend more on jobs because the production a worker can churn out on an "extra" job would be more than what it costs to pay said worker.
The problem with that idea is that there aren't any "extra" jobs. No company hires and more [I]or[/I] less than it needs. It isn't like there are just free slots sitting around that a company hasn't filled; like they just leave garbage around because "we didn't have the money for janitors". Every sensible company will fill as many positions as needed, no more, no less, which is why the ideas that tax breaks will create jobs or minimum wage will raise unemployment are just... wrong, for the most part. At least that is what I gathered from researching this stuff.
Businesses do create jobs, but they won't make "extra" jobs, and (hopefully) that is what Hillary meant.
She has a bad history of knowing what she wants to say, but she says it in a really fucking dumb way.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46331986]In this fictional world of yours, we never invented transistors right? What about in the real world where automation is a thing and labor can be cut to tiny percentages?
[editline]25th October 2014[/editline]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU[/media][/QUOTE]
Oh yeah? Who built those machines? Who will take care of them? Who will work at the power companies that power them? Who will continue to build and design better versions of them?
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332396]Oh yeah? Who built those machines? Who will take care of them? Who will work at the power companies that power them? Who will continue to build and design better versions of them?[/QUOTE]
machines can design machines
[QUOTE=Juniez;46332408]machines can design machines[/QUOTE]
This isn't Terminator, I would hardly call what we have today true self-replicating machines.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332396]Oh yeah? Who built those machines? Who will take care of them? Who will work at the power companies that power them? Who will continue to build and design better versions of them?[/QUOTE]
In order, people who don't lose their jobs to those machines, less people than the group that was replaced, the same amount of people as before the machines came, and the same people as the first group.
[QUOTE=Juniez;46332408]machines can design machines[/QUOTE]
Not as well as humans can. IIRC, AMD tried to optimize their CPU silicon by letting some machine lay oit the transistors. While the final product was "clean", it was easily beaten by Intel, who let actual engineers design their chips.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46331328]Demand. And businesses don't create demand.[/QUOTE]
How do you even get this craz-
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46331496]but if you ask me "does business create jobs?" I would resoundingly say "no. consumers create jobs."[/QUOTE]
actually that makes sense nevermind
the more people buy the more people need to get hired
[QUOTE=Juniez;46332408]machines can design machines[/QUOTE]
Make machines? Yes.
Design machines, let alone as well as humans do? Heck no.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;46331391]So Apple didn't create demand for the iPhone? Something has to be created in order for there to be a demand.[/QUOTE]
There can be demand for a product that doesn't yet exist. Companies are there to find the unexploited niches and fill them in with products.
Businesses do not create jobs...
At least not directly. Job creation is a side effect of a businesses goal- which is to make money.
This is nitpicking and mostly irrelevant due to one simple fact. Most jobs are created because a business is trying to make money.
Aside from that, I have a problem with Hilary Clinton talking about jobs and businesses when she helped craft wall marts policies towards their employees. Actions speak louder then ramblings...
It seems quite a few people in this thread need to take a Business Class at their local community college.
[QUOTE=Baron von Hax;46331391]So Apple didn't create demand for the iPhone?[/QUOTE]
Not entirely. Consumer popularity is a big part of it.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332396]Oh yeah? Who built those machines? Who will take care of them? Who will work at the power companies that power them? Who will continue to build and design better versions of them?[/QUOTE]
Think about this, if they needed the same amount of people as without automation, then why would anyone automate?
[QUOTE=DuCT;46332439]Not as well as humans can. IIRC, AMD tried to optimize their CPU silicon by letting some machine lay oit the transistors. While the final product was "clean", it was easily beaten by Intel, who let actual engineers design their chips.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Manibogi;46332458]Make machines? Yes.
Design machines, let alone as well as humans do? Heck no.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332436]This isn't Terminator, I would hardly call what we have today true self-replicating machines.[/QUOTE]
well i meant in the futuristic context of the quoted video and also the fact that learning machines are being explored in the present - by the time artificial intelligence becomes feature-rich enough to reliably replace the common desk job, they'd probably be stable enough to be trusted with certain aspects of mechanical engineering
[QUOTE=Xain777;46332582]Think about this, if they needed the same amount of people as without automation, then why would anyone automate?[/QUOTE]Make it easier for the employees?
My expectations for the next election turning out well for this country are marching towards a very tall cliff with pointy rocks and acid pits at the bottom.
[QUOTE=Xain777;46332582]Think about this, if they needed the same amount of people as without automation, then why would anyone automate?[/QUOTE]
It's not the same amount of people, yeah, compared to pre-automation manufactures the amount of actual workers is tiny, but it's still pretty big. Productions have also grew quite a bit.
I still don't see any way that machines will run us out of human labor positions. There are some things a human just does better - I've seen a few floor scrubbing robots and humans still do the job faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly. That's just one example.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46333175]I still don't see any way that machines will run us out of human labor positions. There are some things a human just does better - I've seen a few floor scrubbing robots and humans still do the job faster, more efficiently, and more thoroughly. That's just one example.[/QUOTE]
For now, but they get better every year unlike humans. When decent management AI comes around, eventually machines will be able to fix there own networks and handle tasks without humans. Its inevitable really.
A post scarcity economy is really scary when I think about it, because people won't be able to let go of there greed which is something they can hold over everyone else.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332396]Oh yeah? Who built those machines? Who will take care of them? Who will work at the power companies that power them? Who will continue to build and design better versions of them?[/QUOTE]
Less than the jobs lost by replacing those people
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;46331616]Warren 2016.[/QUOTE]
-New candidate from out of nowhere
-Says everything the voters like to hear
-Has little experience in politics
-Has questionable past
-Is ethnic minority
Man, this seems awfully familiar.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46333416]Less than the jobs lost by replacing those people[/QUOTE]
Do you honestly think that a majority of businesses are going to delegate their tasks to machines though? At most we're talking about certain manufacturers of consumer goods, there are still plenty of other jobs that humans are better suited to do, both blue and white collar.
[QUOTE=Saxon;46333196]For now, but they get better every year unlike humans. When decent management AI comes around, eventually machines will be able to fix there own networks and handle tasks without humans. Its inevitable really.
A post scarcity economy is really scary when I think about it, because people won't be able to let go of there greed which is something they can hold over everyone else.[/QUOTE]
Has anybody read "A brave new world"?
I bring it up, because, when the first main character confronts the "Director" or "Overseer" of the world in his office, he his told that humanity had progressed a lot and eventually, discovered how to make machines produce everything.
But they disabled them and reverted the advance because a lot of fuck ups happened regarding social behaviour.
Think about it, maybe there will be a enforced ban on such machines on the future.
So, that was a really dumb thing for Hillary to say.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46331328]Demand. And businesses don't create demand.[/QUOTE]
Businesses create jobs to fill a demand.
And sometimes if it's an impressive product/service, the business's product creates the demand for it. Take the iPhone, for example.
All of you better vote in the primaries.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46336197]Has anybody read "A brave new world"?
I bring it up, because, when the first main character confronts the "Director" or "Overseer" of the world in his office, he his told that humanity had progressed a lot and eventually, discovered how to make machines produce everything.
But they disabled them and reverted the advance because a lot of fuck ups happened regarding social behaviour.
Think about it, maybe there will be a enforced ban on such machines on the future.[/QUOTE]
That would work if we had a unified world government, but even if the U.S bans them and other countries they're just gonna find the most insignificant speck on the map to host their machines.
Its so far away in the future its hard to speculate what would happen. But typically fighting automation is a losing battle.
We're coming up on a crossroads I think, where we can have a utopia like Star Trek or a shitty civilization like Blade Runner.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46336197]Has anybody read "A brave new world"?
I bring it up, because, when the first main character confronts the "Director" or "Overseer" of the world in his office, he his told that humanity had progressed a lot and eventually, discovered how to make machines produce everything.
But they disabled them and reverted the advance because a lot of fuck ups happened regarding social behaviour.
Think about it, maybe there will be a enforced ban on such machines on the future.[/QUOTE]
It's a really interesting moral question to think about. Most people's jobs are the result of inefficiency. Do we value efficiency, profit, and cheap consumer goods more than we value good paying jobs? Are we willing to enforce inefficiency in the interest of keeping people employed?
I think we've seen that the "Future of Leisure" prophesied in the 1950s has turned out to be bullshit. Automation didn't give everyone 20 hour workweeks at the same income, it gave half the employees a 40 hour workweek and pink slips to the other half. We're probably heading into a future where there will simply never be enough jobs to keep everyone employed. So, we can enforce inefficiency to keep people employed, massively expand the welfare state to cover people the job market excludes, or just let the jobless starve.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332396]Oh yeah? Who built those machines? Who will take care of them? Who will work at the power companies that power them? Who will continue to build and design better versions of them?[/QUOTE]
Engineers and technicians and programmers.
I'm not sure 7 billion people can fit into that group.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;46332436]This isn't Terminator, I would hardly call what we have today true self-replicating machines.[/QUOTE]
Okay. Well we'll see where that leaves us in 50 years. Just because they can't today doesn't mean they can't tomorrow.
[editline]26th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Manibogi;46332458]Make machines? Yes.
Design machines, let alone as well as humans do? Heck no.[/QUOTE]
Goes to show what you know about engineering.
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