Paris ban on Muslim street prayers comes into effect - Polidicks

Also Lankist, I don't live in the US, many of us don't live in the US, the thread is about a law outside of the US. So "Yeah well I don't care about that part of your argument because it doesn't apply to the US" doesn't really work.

In France you can be as hateful as you want as long as you keep it for yourself. Simply because we live in society and in society you're not supposed to say "hey, kill these guys over there". As an example the previous leader of the National Front (who has given lead to his daughter since then) had been arrested and served jail for having clearly denied the existence of nazi gas chambers during ww2. Later on, he said they did existed, but they were details. He's also the indirect responsible of a downright brutal murder thanks to all the xenophobic bullshit he spits on democracy like a snake spits venom. He also wrote a book about how ww2 is a bunch of lies. Did I mention he was part of the Vichy government back in the german occupation of France in the 40s ? What an asshole. Recently, he also said that one guy who massacred a lot of people in that one country in the north of Europe did all of that because ethnicities were mixed and had to be separated.

[QUOTE=acds;32325199]Also Lankist, I don't live in the US, many of us don't live in the US, the thread is about a law outside of the US. So "Yeah well I don't care about that part of your argument because it doesn't apply to the US" doesn't really work.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Lankist;32325186]So who are you going to bring to the stand? If I say 'I hate white people,' do you think it's FAIR that in a trial you can pick ANY white person you want and call him the victim? What if that white person hates Mexicans? You can't call entire races, nationalities or religions victims of an individual crime. That is a miscarriage of justice, it gives you far too much leeway to railroad the trial. You can call literally ANYONE you want and call them a victim. You can manipulate the jury, you can cherry-pick the witnesses, you can convict anyone of anything. That is not justice. That is one of the primary reasons why, aside from the Constitutional reasons, we do not punish hate-speech against vague groups. Anyone can be convicted of that crime, whether they even committed it or not.[/QUOTE] This right here is not specific to the US. I am pointing out the flaws in YOUR logic, not Germany's logic. I'm not taking your word as representative of your system of justice, I am pointing out how the bullshit you say does not work.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325256]In France you can be as hateful as you want as long as you keep it for yourself. Simply because we live in society and in society you're not supposed to say "hey, kill these guys over there".[/QUOTE] But what kind of a society do you live in if you can't be vocal about your feelings, even if they're wrong or disliked by the majority. People should have the right to express their beliefs as long as they aren't harassing people.

[QUOTE=Ond kaja;32324973]If the protestors actually said "death to Americans" then that is hate speech, and should be punishable. If they were just burning flags to express their hate towards America itself (i.e. the government), then that falls under the bounds of free speech.[/QUOTE] The funniest thing is I don't think I could translate 'Death to America' to Arabic. I once watched a documentary where they were saying "La! La! Israel!" (No, No, Israel) and the subtitles said 'Death to America' for some reason. No idea where the origins of that so called 'phrase' came from but I've never heard it.

[QUOTE=Conspiracy;32325291]The funniest thing is I don't think I could translate 'Death to America' to Arabic. I once watched a documentary where they were saying "La! La! Israel!" (No, No, Israel) and the subtitles said 'Death to America' for some reason. No idea where the origins of that so called 'phrase' came from but I've never heard it.[/QUOTE] Was that on Fox News by any chance?

I hope Christian prayers will be banned also. Only fair.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32319718][h2]Stop judging the law like you knew the French government and society[/h2] [/QUOTE] Facepunch seems to have a problem with this, everyone seems to think they know everything about every government and society.

[QUOTE=Alex_DeLarge;32325312]I hope Christian prayers will be banned also. Only fair.[/QUOTE] Probably not. ITT people don't realize Hate Speech laws are only enforced upon the minority opinions.

[QUOTE=Lankist;32325261]This right here is not specific to the US. I am pointing out the flaws in YOUR logic, not Germany's logic. I'm not taking your word as representative of your system of justice, I am pointing out how the bullshit you say does not work.[/QUOTE] That goes for [B]a lot[/B] of laws. And yes, it's not accurate, and it can be manipulated. Does that mean we should just not give a fuck about it and let people incite hate? Nothing is perfect, but we can't just let everything slide because making it illegal would have some flaws that could be exploited. An analogy, you don't remove flash from a web browser because it causes bugs, you fix the bugs. [editline]16th September 2011[/editline] Eh fuck it, I'm off to bed, 'cause this could keep going till tomorrow morning.

[QUOTE=Alex_DeLarge;32325312]I hope Christian prayers will be banned also. Only fair.[/QUOTE] They won't because they are not praying in the middle of the street. Should they do that though, they couldn't anymore. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;32325277]But what kind of a society do you live in if you can't be vocal about your feelings, even if they're wrong or disliked by the majority. People should have the right to express their beliefs as long as they aren't harassing people.[/QUOTE] I think taking one of the days in the calendar previously dedicated to Jeanne D'arc and turning it into a giant xenophobic manifestation that goes on and on every year organized and funded by the National Front and once led to the death of one person is enough. The guy who died was the member of an African ethnicity the leader of the National Front was targeting. He got beaten up and thrown unconscious in the Seine, where he drowned.

[QUOTE=acds;32325367]That goes for [B]a lot[/B] of laws.[/QUOTE] Uh no it doesn't. We don't have many crimes that are tried with millions of people as victims. Most of those are war crimes, which civilian justice does not handle. In the cases of fraud, such as the Madoff case, the crime is treated extremely carefully, far MORE carefully than you suggest. No, you DON'T have to give a fuck if somebody hates somebody else. It isn't your goddamn business. Nobody appointed you as the arbiter of good taste. [editline]16th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325399]They won't because they are not praying in the middle of the street. Should they do that though, they couldn't anymore.[/QUOTE] So does the law specifically state MUSLIMS can't pray in the street, or at very least is specific enough to incriminate only Muslims? Or does it say "Nobody can conduct themselves in any manner of prayer in the street?" You're acting like an expert so I'm presuming you have read the text of the legislation in question.

You do realize that if you let someone talk shit for long enough he will end up acting shit as well, right ?

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325458]You do realize that if you let someone talk shit for long enough he will end up acting shit as well, right ?[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but no truly just system punishes people on the pretense that they MIGHT commit a crime. Nor does a just system create a crime under the pretense that anyone who commits the new crime will inevitably commit a greater crime. This isn't Minority Report. You levy charges only when there are charges to be levied.

Muhammad Al-Khaled is sad, now he cannot visit his Infidel friend in France.

[QUOTE=Lankist;32325486]I'm sorry but no truly just system punishes people on the pretense that they MIGHT commit a crime. Nor does a just system create a crime under the pretense that anyone who commits the new crime will inevitably commit a greater crime. This isn't Minority Report. You levy charges only when there are charges to be levied.[/QUOTE] Better safe than sorry. If someone goes out in the street and says all jews must be killed, he will be arrested and sued for heinous speech, because you can't tell if he's going to actually kill jews or not. We had enough experience with Mussolini, Hitler and Petain to know this is not a good idea to let people say shit like that. And yes, even the internet gets the same treatment. Facebook is now obligated to remove all french heinous/racist/xenophobic groups and give the personal informations of anyone who subscribed, most blogs proceed the same way, etc.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325590]Better safe than sorry.[/QUOTE] The words of tyrants. [editline]16th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=RichyZ;32325535]i thought if you said "death to ted in accounting" you'd be fine but if you said "ill kill ted in accounting" you're fucked[/QUOTE] No that's a death threat. You aren't necessarily inciting violence against him, though you might depending on context. Incitement is using words to get people to commit violent crimes on your behest. Threatening to commit violent crime on your own behalf is a different crime all together.

Yeah, no.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325590]Better safe than sorry. If someone goes out in the street and says all jews must be killed, he will be arrested and sued for heinous speech, because you can't tell if he's going to actually kill jews or not. We had enough experience with Mussolini, Hitler and Petain to know this is not a good idea to let people say shit like that. And yes, even the internet gets the same treatment. Facebook is now obligated to remove all french heinous/racist/xenophobic groups and give the personal informations of anyone who subscribed, most blogs proceed the same way, etc.[/QUOTE] It must be great living in a country where you can only say what the government says you can say.

Also stop saying you're in a country with perfect freedom of speech, you've got the patriot act that keeps track of your emails and conversations and other joyful things like that

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325643]Yeah, no.[/QUOTE] Yeah, yeah. "Better safe than sorry" justifies a LOT of things. We should lock up all muslims in concentration camps. Better safe than sorry! [editline]16th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325653]Also stop saying you're in a country with perfect freedom of speech, you've got the patriot act that keeps track of your emails and conversations and other joyful things like that[/QUOTE] USAPATRIOT has nothing to do with free speech. Government having the ability to spy on you is different from government having the ability to stop you from speaking. Regardless of the ethical implications of surveillance, USAPATRIOT grants no means of violating the First Amendment.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32325651]It must be great living in a country where you can only say what the government says you can say.[/QUOTE] You can say whatever you want, except if you wish for the death of people. Still means you can say the government does jack shit, that left is better than right, that the president is incompetent, etc. So far the fact of actually doing things against people who say they are going to do terrible things only avoided big troubles and saved lives.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325677]You can say whatever you want, except if you wish for the death of people. Still means you can say the government does jack shit, that left is better than right, that the president is incompetent, etc.[/QUOTE] And they can ignore the fuck out of you. [editline]16th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325677]You can say whatever you want, except if you wish for the death of people. Still means you can say the government does jack shit, that left is better than right, that the president is incompetent, etc. So far the fact of actually doing things against people who say they are going to do terrible things only avoided big troubles and saved lives.[/QUOTE] You could save a bunch of lives by deporting all minorities, I'm sure.

Pretty much like the united states. Both are democracies.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325714]Pretty much like the united states. Both are democracies.[/QUOTE] First of all, the US is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic that uses democratic means to achieve only part of its government's appointments. Second, we do not practice in direct democracy. There is a difference between a democratic government and a government in which elections are held. The idea that the US is a democracy is a myth. The only proper democratic proceedings we hold are for representatives. The Public is not versed in the intricacies of legislation or constitutional rights and powers, it is not permitted to interact directly with law.

Demos = people Kratos = power Democracy = power to the people People voting for people so they can vote for other people = democracy.

The US is a representative democracy, which is a form of... democracy!

[QUOTE=Lankist;32325741]First of all, the US is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic that uses democratic means to achieve only part of its government's appointments. Second, we do not practice in direct democracy. There is a difference between a democratic government and a government in which elections are held. The idea that the US is a democracy is a myth. The only proper democratic proceedings we hold are for representatives.[/QUOTE] The US is a democracy, the US just uses representative democracy rather than direct democracy. Hell even North Korea is technically a democracy since they still hold elections, you can just vote for one party however.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32325764]Demos = people Kratos = power Democracy = power to the people People voting for people so they can vote for other people = democracy.[/QUOTE] Sorry but you don't know what democracy is.

[QUOTE=Ond kaja;32325790]The US is a representative democracy, which is a form of... democracy![/QUOTE] No, representative democracy only comprises the House, the Senate (only since recent years) and the President of the federal government. All other positions are appointed. We are a Republic, not a strict democracy. The majority of government positions are appointments made with the approval of representatives. The means at which we combat corruption, especially in the house, is holding frequent elections to replace the representatives.