Paris ban on Muslim street prayers comes into effect - Polidicks

The difference with people telling Jews should die is that they are not evoking any political issues. They just say Jews should die, which is enough for them to get in trouble. For example the National Front basically took the whole xenophobia thing and turned it into a political issue (using immigration as a cover-up), and they're perfectly in their rights. To make it clear, you can't tell you want to kill a specific group without expecting problems, but you can perfectly make a new party and run for president with "kill the jews" as your main guideline.

In fact here was your post: [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32346738]Because fascists actually want to kill people and a lot of groups who went on the street claiming jews should die ended up throwing molotov cocktails at Synagogues and effectively killed jews.[/QUOTE] Watch how easily it can shift: [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32346738]Because Communists actually want to remove capitalists from society and a lot of groups who went on the street claiming the Romanovs should die ended up throwing molotov cocktails at imperial buildings and effectively killed the Tsar and his family.[/QUOTE]

The nazis also came to power by voting, though most of it was rigged by a conspiracy (burning the reichstag after Hitler was elected to get full powers, notably). You can expect an antisemitic to burn down synagogues, you can't expect a communisty party to suddenly burn buildings.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32347101]The difference with people telling Jews should die is that they are not evoking any political issues. They just say Jews should die, which is enough for them to get in trouble. For example the National Front basically took the whole xenophobia thing and turned it into a political issue (using immigration as a cover-up), and they're perfectly in their rights. To make it clear, you can't tell you want to kill a specific group without expecting problems, but you can perfectly make a new party and run for president with "kill the jews" as your main guideline.[/QUOTE] The "jews" are not a specific enough group to consider it a direct threat. [editline]17th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32347138]The nazis also came to power by voting, though most of it was rigged by a conspiracy (burning the reichstag after Hitler was elected to get full powers, notably)[/QUOTE] And the Bolsheviks came to power through popular revolution and by working together with other Left-leaning groups. Your point?

My point is you can't go against something forced such as a Revolution without using the force yourself but you can go against something democratic such as a Party running for elections without using the force yourself. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] Also the jews were once persecuted and killed in masses by the Nazis, as a matter of fact we know they're easy, precise targets.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32347173]My point is you can't go against something forced such as a Revolution without using the force yourself but you can go against something democratic such as a Party running for elections without using the force yourself.[/quote] Then surely they should have the freedom to speak their mind. But oh no, like you said "if they say it enough, they will do it". [QUOTE=Ganerumo;32347173]Also the jews were once persecuted and killed in masses by the Nazis, as an experience we know they're easy, precise targets.[/QUOTE] Oh really? How can it be distinct and precise when it makes no distinction between "Jewish people" and "followers of Judaism"?

The line is indeed blurry between what is Hate speech, conspiracy and just random talking, but once again, apart in specific cases, it's always clear whether or not the person is planning to take it on a new level or not. People who get arrested for claiming all Jews should die are often skin-heads with a swastika tatooed on their arm, not that one teen who thinks it's cool to hate Jews. People who claim Jews should die don't make a difference between "Jewish people" and "followers of Judaism", it's the same shit for them. They see a Synagogue, they burn it to the ground, they see a Jewish cemetery, they profane it (already happened, a lot)

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32347244]The line is indeed blurry between what is Hate speech, conspiracy and just random talking, but once again, apart in specific cases, it's always clear whether or not the person is planning to take it on a new level or not. People who get arrested for claiming all Jews should die are often skin-heads with a swastika tatooed on their arm, not that one teen who thinks it's cool to hate Jews.[/QUOTE] That's an incredibly naive thing to say. It is most certainly not always clear what the intent of saying something is.

There's a huge difference between the actual law and what's happening practically. There isn't any legal specification of what should and what shouldn't be said - that would indeed be Fascism. But if something is estimated too hating or too dangerous, it has to be stopped. It really depends on the cases and on a lot of factors and it's pretty much better like that. A specific list of what's good and what's bad in the case of random talking would be too much and would allow a lot of people to avoid the law. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafanx13;32347273]That's an incredibly naive thing to say. It is most certainly not always clear what the intent of saying something is.[/QUOTE] Well if it's not clear, you take him to a police station, some questions are asked, and he's being kept in sight. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] It's all based on the fact that you NEVER know what someone saying such things will do. Even if it's more likely a skin head will eventually beat up to death a Jew, he might as well not do it. From that point, it's better to keep on sight everyone who says such bullshit as "kill all jews" rather than letting them talk and give time and freedom of who's actually planning on doing it to put on practice his theories. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] It doesn't mean we are overly paranoid, nor we arrest everyone who say unusual things - if I'm using so much the Jew example, it's pretty much because it's not applying to a lot of other cases. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] Technically it's restraining freedom of speech, but it's widely acceptable regarding the fact it's saving more lives that if we let shit being said no matter what it is.

We must outlaw dangerous speech and thought. I do agree that speech can be harmful, but I disagree that we should take the step of outlawing it, as what is considered 'harmful' could be anything, from calling for murder to political parties or ideologies. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] Besides it's not like it works anyway.

[QUOTE=Contag;32351265]We must outlaw dangerous speech and thought. I do agree that speech can be harmful, but I disagree that we should take the step of outlawing it, as what is considered 'harmful' could be anything, from calling for murder to political parties or ideologies. [editline]18th September 2011[/editline] Besides it's not like it works anyway.[/QUOTE] you can just say "thought crime"

[QUOTE=Lankist;32351278]you can just say "thought crime"[/QUOTE] Well, if the technology was there, he would support it. I mean, if people have dangerous thoughts, wouldn't it be better, in his view, to incarcerate them to 'protect' 'everyone' (actually just air(fear) quote every noun in that sentence)

I'm talking the 1984 kind of thought crime. The kind where your kids are indoctrinated into spying on you

[QUOTE=Lankist;32351362]I'm talking the 1984 kind of thought crime. The kind where your kids are indoctrinated into spying on you[/QUOTE] That would be terrifying.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32347142]And the Bolsheviks came to power through popular revolution and by working together with other Left-leaning groups. Your point?[/QUOTE] They used hardnosed politics. They attended all of the meetings of the Petrograd Soviet. They built up influence and distributed propaganda out to people. The Russian Revolution was never a popular revolution, like all revolutions it collapsed from the top and the Bolsheviks merely managed to slither their way to the top. The reason there was no counter revolution is because the rest of the left wing were too lazy or unwilling to take control, and simply let the Bolsheviks take over Russia and order a mass pogrom against all Aristocrats and Bourgeois.

[QUOTE=Lankist;32351362]I'm talking the 1984 kind of thought crime. The kind where your kids are indoctrinated into spying on you[/QUOTE] Little late there me old mate. If I'm not mistaken, German kids reported their own parents sometimes for listening to enemy radio stations.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;32352681]Little late there me old mate. If I'm not mistaken, German kids reported their own parents sometimes for listening to enemy radio stations.[/QUOTE] 1984 is a novel

[QUOTE=Lankist;32352824]1984 is a novel[/QUOTE] German kids actually did report their own parents for listening into enemy radio station.

[QUOTE=Lankist;32352824]1984 is a novel[/QUOTE] I know FP does house some of the more primitive of us but I know what 1984 is. I was more talking about you anticipating 1984-esque spying indoctrination when the Germans beat you to it already. Come to think of it, I've never read 1984. Should probably try and get a hold of a copy.

You should clearly understand that the whole "arresting someone for saying he'll kill people" isn't done all the time nor in allt he cases. It's only when it starts developing into groups of people who have no political values and aren't endorsing Democracy that are much more likely to do bad shit than to just stay here and look bad. It's not at an individual level but more at a group level - usually, when such a group is created, the designated leader gets it and the rest get a warning. If you're alone you can say whatever the hell you want, if you want to talk to your friends about how Jews should disappear, it's your business. Start creating a Gang out of the idea and you're in deep shit.

Just for your information, this has been done because when it was prayer's time, there were so many muslims that all of them couldn't get inside the mosque, thus they were praying in the street but they were so many that the whole street ended up completely blocked during the prayer. While there's now a ban on street prayers to solve this problem, in counterpart the government is rearranging several military barracks inside Paris into "muslim praying centers".

This has been already said and the debate on the Prayer is pretty much over. Now it's all about making americans understand it's not fascist to arrest heinous group (hate inciting speech)

This action is quite surprising considering the french trait of willingly getting raped by anyone who opposes their agenda. Kudos Frenchmen.

you're the only one that mentioned fascists going on about how if we don't curb freedom of speech neo-nazi's and fascists will kill off the jews again or something.

[QUOTE=thisispain;32353301]you're the only one that mentioned fascists going on about how if we don't curb freedom of speech neo-nazi's and fascists will kill off the jews again or something.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure Lankist said this was a thing Fascists are doing.