200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605306]
Ehh... Are you saying that gender isn't mainly decided by genitals? No I wouldn't stop being a man if I lost my genitals, but I'd still use the mens bathroom because I was born a man. Look, I get why she wants to use the bathroom but she's not a girl yet.
Also you guys keep going on about the restroom, it's also the gym locker room.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we are saying that gender isn't mainly decided by the genitals. The genitals in fact, have no impact on what the gender is. If you need a brief crash course (heuehu) then maybe you ought to watch this, because it seems like you don't really understand transgenderism, and gender.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI[/media]
[QUOTE=V12US;48605307][video=youtube;KKWk2Ec9eRQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKWk2Ec9eRQ[/video][/QUOTE]
Great. Nowhere in that video did I see "A dong flopping in her skirt".
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605315]Yes, we are saying that gender isn't mainly decided by the genitals. The genitals in fact, have no impact on what the gender is. If you need a brief crash course (heuehu) then maybe you ought to watch this, because it seems like you don't really understand transgenderism, and gender.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI[/media][/QUOTE]
So are you saying that girls shouldn't be allowed to feel uncomfortable when there's someone with a different sex in their locker room?
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605256]Oh shit yeah, I read that wrong, sorry.
Then again, I still don't get why you guys think she should be allowed to use the girls restroom. I mean, you're probably guys and you don't even know why these girls feel uncomfortable.
The school provided a gender neutral restroom, and for as long as she's still a dude wearing makeup and long hair, she should use that one. It's the GIRLS bathroom, they should be able to decide that a dude isn't allowed in there.[/QUOTE]
okay to use the race comparison again, what if a black person wanted to use the white restrooms in a school/public place and they were told to use the race neutral restroom because using the white ones would make people uncomfortable, and then told that they weren't being discriminated against because they could still use an applicable restroom
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605115]Because if the world went off very simple judgement like 'what makes the majority comfortable', no minority group would have any rights at all, ever. [I]That's why we're [U]minorities[/U].[/I][/QUOTE]Again, you're allowed to exist with the consent of society because our society is built on the principle of human rights. In other societies you would be killed, so maybe you should stop saying "oh well tough shit 200 people's feelings don't count only my feelings count" because [i]it could be far, far worse for you.[/i]
This is literally the reason why people stay so entrenched in ignorant beliefs, "well fuck them they're dumb they should believe what I believe" doesn't exactly go over well with the right-leaning crowd who takes issue with the very concept of gender dysphoria. You're combining several concepts that piss these people off in the worst possible way, namely sexual deviancy and telling them what to believe and speaking from a self-imposed position of moral superiority that directly conflicts with their belief system.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605232]Well I'm sorry you'd feel uncomfortable, but if you were in that situation I'd just tell you to get over it.[/QUOTE]This goes both ways, and since the needs of the many do often outweigh the needs of the few I'm going to flatly admit that I'd tell Perry to just get over it, there was a reasonable compromise to make things easier. (that I'm sure was reluctantly given in the first place)
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605326]So are you saying that girls shouldn't be allowed to feel uncomfortable when there's someone with a different sex in their locker room?[/QUOTE]
No you're missing the point. We're not arguing that at all.
We're [I]telling[/I] you that the (comparably)infinitesimally small amount of discomfort they have a minute chance of feeling is no reason at all to justify disallowing trans people from using the bathroom of their identified gender.
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605326]So are you saying that girls shouldn't be allowed to feel uncomfortable when there's someone with a different sex in their locker room?[/QUOTE]
No I'm not saying that, because I'm not really one that believes in thought crimes. They're perfectly allowed to feel uncomfortable. It's just a completely irrational gut emotion without any argumentative basis that doesn't deserve acknowledgement by the school rules.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605333]Again, you're allowed to exist with the consent of society because our society is built on the principle of human rights. In other societies you would be killed, so maybe you should stop saying "oh well tough shit 200 people's feelings don't count only my feelings count" because [I]it could be far, far worse for you.[/I][/QUOTE]
lmao what argument is this? "Be lucky you don't live in somalia you ungrateful trans person, at least we don't kill you!!!!"
[quote]
This is literally the reason why people stay so entrenched in ignorant beliefs, "well fuck them they're dumb they should believe what I believe" doesn't exactly go over well with the right-leaning crowd who takes issue with the very concept of gender dysphoria.[/quote]
No where have we insinuated that at all. Good work with that comprehension.
[quote]
You're combining several concepts that piss these people off in the worst possible way, namely sexual deviancy and telling them what to believe and speaking from a self-imposed position of moral superiority that directly conflicts with their belief system.[/quote]
Holy shit trans people are sexual deviants now? Holy shit is this the 50's?
[quote]
This goes both ways, and since the needs of the many do often outweigh the needs of the few I'm going to flatly admit that I'd tell Perry to just get over it, there was a reasonable compromise to make things easier. (that I'm sure was reluctantly given in the first place)[/QUOTE]
If the majority was always right then minorities would be confined to ghettos and poor people would be arrest off of the streets.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605333]Again, you're allowed to exist with the consent of society because our society is built on the principle of human rights. In other societies you would be killed, so maybe you should stop saying "oh well tough shit 200 people's feelings don't count only my feelings count" because [i]it could be far, far worse for you.[/i]
This is literally the reason why people stay so entrenched in ignorant beliefs, "well fuck them they're dumb they should believe what I believe" doesn't exactly go over well with the right-leaning crowd who takes issue with the very concept of gender dysphoria. You're combining several concepts that piss these people off in the worst possible way, namely sexual deviancy and telling them what to believe and speaking from a self-imposed position of moral superiority that directly conflicts with their belief system.
This goes both ways, and since the needs of the many do often outweigh the needs of the few I'm going to flatly admit that I'd tell Perry to just get over it, there was a reasonable compromise to make things easier. (that I'm sure was reluctantly given in the first place)[/QUOTE]
I'm [I]allowed[/I] to exist, am I? How fucking kind of you. I should appreciate what I have! I only have to worry about being homeless, and not being able to get a job, and being refused service by any business because of my transgenderism, and indeed being [I]beaten to death if I don't get raped first.[/I] But you're right, it's just fucking peachy because it's better than some other shithole.
Also, sorry Mr. Spock, but the needs of the many thing doesn't really hold up. Suppose we're in a cafeteria, and there are 201 hungry people. 200 of them are well fed, but they're hungry at the moment. The remaining 1 is starving to death and desperately needs food. But because 200 are the majority, I guess he's got to wait in the back of the line?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605335]No you're missing the point. We're not arguing that at all.
We're [I]telling[/I] you that the (comparably)infinitesimally small amount of discomfort they have a minute chance of feeling is no reason at all to justify disallowing trans people from using the bathroom of their identified gender.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605336]No I'm not saying that, because I'm not really one that believes in thought crimes. They're perfectly allowed to feel uncomfortable. It's just a completely irrational gut emotion without any argumentative basis that doesn't deserve acknowledgement by the school rules.[/QUOTE]
It's quite funny that you guys are so quick to dismiss what the majority thinks as just a small feeling of discomfort or irrational gut emotion while saying that Perry's "discomfort" using a gender neutral bathroom is so important it should be acknowledged by the school rules. How is what she feels so much more important than what other girls feel?
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605355]It's quite funny that you guys are so quick to dismiss what the majority thinks as just a small feeling of discomfort or irrational gut emotion while saying that Perry's "discomfort" using a gender neutral bathroom is so important it should be acknowledged by the school rules. How is what she feels so much more important than what other girls feel?[/QUOTE]
It's more important because living as one's gender is very often completely essential to a transgendered person's life. It's more important because it causes me extreme depression to live as a male, to the point where it's not an option, because living as a male makes me suicidally depressed. And I'm not a rare example, I'd wager most other transgendered people feel that way. That's a little more important than some people being uncomfortable with my dick existing outside of their view.
So what you're saying is small discomfort for many is more important than heavy depression/suicidal feelings for one?
Human rights don't exist conditionally, they're inalienable. People aren't [I]allowed[/I] to exist in a society because everyone consents to it, their rights are heeded because they're human beings. In this case it's a very clear-cut example of one person being denied the same right that everyone else has. Regardless of what your "[I]personal beliefs[/I]" are here - which is quite frankly almost always an excuse in this case to be a bigot - that still stands.
[quote]It's quite funny that you guys are so quick to dismiss what the majority thinks as just a small feeling of discomfort or irrational gut emotion while saying that Perry's "discomfort" using a gender neutral bathroom is so important it should be acknowledged by the school rules. How is what she feels so much more important than what other girls feel?[/quote]
There's a huge fucking difference! How can you not see this? This person is feeling what they're feeling alone, and in the case of a trans person that's frequently shame to enough of a degree that vast numbers of them attempt suicide!
Why the fuck does an uninformed, largely reactionary majority command more trust here?
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605367]It's more important because living as one's gender is very often completely essential to a transgendered person's life. It's more important because it causes me extreme depression to live as a male, to the point where it's not an option, because living as a male makes me suicidally depressed. And I'm not a rare example, I'd wager most other transgendered people feel that way. That's a little more important than some people being uncomfortable with my dick existing outside of their view.
So what you're saying is small discomfort for many is more important than heavy depression/suicidal feelings for one?[/QUOTE]
Using a gender neutral bathroom (if available) will you make suicidally depressed?
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605367]It's more important because living as one's gender is very often completely essential to a transgendered person's life. It's more important because it causes me extreme depression to live as a male, to the point where it's not an option, because living as a male makes me suicidally depressed. And I'm not a rare example, I'd wager most other transgendered people feel that way. That's a little more important than some people being uncomfortable with my dick existing outside of their view.[/QUOTE]
To add onto this. Middle school and up was so bad for me that I tried to commit suicide three times. It was so bad they had to send me to a school for people with [I]moderate to severe emotional disturbance[/I].
And guess the fuck what? The people there (Mostly bipolar gangbangers) where more tolerant then the people at the normal schools. Which goes to show how utterly petty this "discomfort" actually is.
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605377]Using a gender neutral bathroom (if available) will you make suicidally depressed?[/QUOTE]
A gender neutral bathroom is not acceptable, no. Tolerance is not the same as acceptance. Were blacks given an equally good water fountain as the whites, they'd still be rightfully pissed off about it.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605335]infinitesimally small amount of discomfort[/QUOTE]
Something that cannot be quantified is so small that it cannot be measured.
It makes no sense, and yet it does.
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605377]Using a gender neutral bathroom (if available) will you make suicidally depressed?[/QUOTE]
Making us use gender neutral bathrooms is basically saying
"You're not actually female, you're something inbetween"
[quote]Using a gender neutral bathroom (if available) will you make suicidally depressed?[/quote]
If no one else is using it, it's still stigmatizing. It only either makes sense to go with all gender neutral bathrooms, or not. Besides, the choice for the MtF trans student then is still "Male or Neutral" bathrooms/lockerrooms.
[QUOTE=V12US;48605381]Something that cannot be quantified is so small that it cannot be measured.
It makes no sense, and yet it does.[/QUOTE]
If we've reached the point where you have to argue semantics then you've basically conceded the point.
Not to mention guys bathrooms have stalls too. I can just use that. This isn't about the kind of toilet I use, it's about who I am. I'm a girl. Using any other bathroom than the girl's one says otherwise.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605350]lmao what argument is this? "Be lucky you don't live in somalia you ungrateful trans person, at least we don't kill you!!!!"[/QUOTE]When people stop acting like this is comparable to genocide I'll stop pointing this out.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605350]No where have we insinuated that at all. Good work with that comprehension.[/QUOTE]It's been quoted multiple times in several posts. Scroll up.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605350]Holy shit trans people are sexual deviants now? Holy shit is this the 50's?[/QUOTE][quote]de·vi·ant (dē′vē-ənt)
adj.
Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.
n.
One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.[/quote]
Gender dysphoria is a [i]mental disorder[/i] which is why people transition, it's a treatment for a condition.
For somebody who cannot understand such unbelievably simple concepts you're certainly full of yourself.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605350]If the majority was always right then minorities would be confined to ghettos and poor people would be arrest off of the streets.[/QUOTE]Refer to the beginning of my post about what our society is founded on.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605353]I'm [I]allowed[/I] to exist, am I? How fucking kind of you.[/QUOTE]Yes you are. The world isn't fair, we're a handful of laws and tax codes above savage brutes.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605353]I should appreciate what I have! I only have to worry about being homeless, and not being able to get a job, and being refused service by any business because of my transgenderism, and indeed being [I]beaten to death if I don't get raped first.[/I] But you're right, it's just fucking peachy because it's better than some other shithole.[/QUOTE]This is what I was talking about. The chances of you getting killed in the United States for being transgender is unbelievably small compared to the majority of the world, especially in extremely religious countries.
You were fortunate enough to have been born in the United States. Congratulations. I really don't see how you have any right to act like you're dodging ISIS anti-trans hit squads every time you go out for a stroll.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605353]Also, sorry Mr. Spock, but the needs of the many thing doesn't really hold up. Suppose we're in a cafeteria, and there are 201 hungry people. 200 of them are well fed, but they're hungry at the moment. The remaining 1 is starving to death and desperately needs food. But because 200 are the majority, I guess he's got to wait in the back of the line?[/QUOTE]Do note I said "often."
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605372]Human rights don't exist conditionally, they're inalienable. People aren't [I]allowed[/I] to exist in a society because everyone consents to it, their rights are heeded because they're human beings.[/QUOTE]Rights are only good if they're recognized, tell that "oh they're inalienable!" shit to Boko Haram.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605391]When people stop acting like this is comparable to genocide I'll stop pointing this out.
[/QUOTE]
No one is saying it's comparable to genocide.
[quote]
Gender dysphoria is a [I]mental disorder[/I] which is why people transition, it's a treatment for a condition.
For somebody who cannot understand such unbelievably simple concepts you're certainly [B]full of yourself.[/B]
[/quote]
Says the person explaining gender dysphoria in a thread with trans people in it.
[quote]You were fortunate enough to have been born in the United States. Congratulations. I really don't see how you have any right to act like you're dodging ISIS anti-trans hit squads every time you go out for a stroll.
[/quote]
You've built quite the strawman there. So someone who's so fortunate to be born in the USA has no right to complain about anything so long as someone has it worse somewhere else?
[quote]
Rights are only good if they're recognized, tell that "oh they're inalienable!" shit to Boko Haram.[/quote]
I mean, no... they're there so we can come to some agreement on what's deplorable and wrong in a cross-cultural context, and as a guideline to build our laws and agreements upon. I don't know why you think the fact that someone violates human rights then makes those rights meaningless to uphold.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605391]When people stop acting like this is comparable to genocide I'll stop pointing this out.
It's been quoted multiple times in several posts. Scroll up.
Gender dysphoria is a [i]mental disorder[/i] which is why people transition, it's a treatment for a condition.
For somebody who cannot understand such unbelievably simple concepts you're certainly full of yourself.
Refer to the beginning of my post about what our society is founded on.
Yes you are. The world isn't fair, we're a handful of laws and tax codes above savage brutes.
This is what I was talking about. The chances of you getting killed in the United States for being transgender is unbelievably small compared to the majority of the world, especially in extremely religious countries.
You were fortunate enough to have been born in the United States. Congratulations. I really don't see how you have any right to act like you're dodging ISIS anti-trans hit squads every time you go out for a stroll.
Do note I said "often."[/QUOTE]
There's so much wrong with all of this I don't even know where to begin
First of all, we're not a 'handful of laws and tax codes above savage brutes'. That's fucking stupid. I suppose you're only a few laws away from being a murderer and a rapist?
And no, I'm not 'allowed' to exist. I'm not about to be here on someone's good fucking graces. I'm here whether you like it it or not. I didn't ask you if I could exist.
I'm not aware of any 'let the transgendered people not get slaughtered on sight we're now allowing them to exist' bill that got passed in America. Secondly, you can wheel out the 'it's worse in other places' shit on any issue you can name. It invalidates nothing, and doesn't mean that I should accept anything. Otherwise, I guess nobody in America should be allowed to complain about anything ever. As long as you're not the single worst country, you have nothing to complain about, I guess.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605384]If we've reached the point where you have to argue semantics then you've basically conceded the point.[/QUOTE]
I argue for the sake of interesting discussions. I couldn't care less about the outcome as I'm not invested in it, nor will it make any difference for the people actually involved. This isn't really an argument anyway, just different contexts and opinions clashing together until everyone walks away claiming they 'won'. Whatever makes you feel better as you continue your daily life, I guess. I just enjoy watching stuff like fanatics slipping down a sliding scale of hyperbole.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605379]A gender neutral bathroom is not acceptable, no. Tolerance is not the same as acceptance. Were blacks given an equally good water fountain as the whites, they'd still be rightfully pissed off about it.[/QUOTE]
Wait, I fail to see how a bathroom useable by both genders is the same as a water fountain only usable by one race. In fact isn't having two separate bathrooms closer to the "separate but equal" policy?
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605391]When people stop acting like this is comparable to genocide I'll stop pointing this out.[/QUOTE]
I'd love for you to quote where literally anyone said that.
[quote]
It's been quoted multiple times in several posts. Scroll up.[/quote]
I've perused the entire thread and not once have I said such a thing. Good work there
[quote]
Gender dysphoria is a [I]mental disorder[/I] which is why people transition, it's a treatment for a condition.[/quote]
Cool I guess? This bares literally no relevance to the argument unless you're trying to use the term mental disorder as some way to take away credence from our arguments.
[quote]
For somebody who cannot understand such unbelievably simple concepts you're certainly full of yourself.[/quote]
No you're the one who cannot apparently understand simple concepts.
How the fuck is being trans sexually deviant? Transgenderism is not being "sexually deviant" Unless you've manage to misconstrue the meaning of sexual deviancy (Which is a synonym for paraphilia)
which I'm sure you have considering the definition of sexual deviancy is
" Sexual excitement to the point of erection and/or orgasm, when the object of that excitement is considered abnormal in the context of the learned societal norms (paraphilia).".
So unless you're insinuating we achieve sexual gratification from being women then you're argument has no substance.
[quote]
Refer to the beginning of my post about what our society is founded on.[/quote]
. Are you seriously arguing that not being mildly discomforted is a human right? Or that discrimination by the majority is a human right?
[quote]
This is what I was talking about. The chances of you getting killed in the United States for being transgender is unbelievably small compared to the majority of the world, especially in extremely religious countries.[/quote]
Yeah man that 28% increased likelihood of experiencing violence compared to that of gender normative people is unbelievably small right?
Get over yourself.
[quote]
You were fortunate enough to have been born in the United States. Congratulations. I really don't see how you have any right to act like you're dodging ISIS anti-trans hit squads every time you go out for a stroll.[/quote]
So the substance of your argument is that we should be grateful we don't live in a shithole. Jesus christ
[quote]
Do note I said "often."[/quote]
Then where the hell do you draw this arbitrary line the sand?
[QUOTE=Anderan;48605428]Wait, I fail to see how a bathroom useable by both genders is the same as a water fountain only usable by one race.[/QUOTE]
[quote]If no one else is using it, it's still stigmatizing. It only either makes sense to go with all gender neutral bathrooms, or not. Besides, the choice for the MtF trans student then is still "Male or Neutral" bathrooms/lockerrooms.
[/quote]
It basically becomes "the trans bathroom"
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605442]It basically becomes "the trans bathroom"[/QUOTE]
Then get rid of the single sex bathrooms.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605407]No one is saying it's comparable to genocide.[/QUOTE]saying =/= acting
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605407]Says the person explaining gender dysphoria in a thread with trans people in it.[/QUOTE]Yes, I had to explain what gender dysphoria is because apparently Kyle didn't know that it was a deviance from the baseline model of your standard human unit.
You're also not-so-subtly implying I'm cis and hetero too, great going.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605407]I mean, no... they're there so we can come to some agreement on what's deplorable and wrong in a cross-cultural context, and as a guideline to build our laws and agreements upon. I don't know why you think the fact that someone violates human rights then makes those rights meaningless to uphold.[/QUOTE]I never said that without universal recognition rights are invalid, I don't understand how you inferred this from my pretty clear language. I did say that rights are certainly invalid in certain context, as is the case in Nigeria. Hell, I'd say most of Europe violates a basic human right by not allowing people to freely arm themselves and defend their life and property with lethal force if necessary. Europe's cultural differences doesn't invalidate the 2nd Amendment any more than North Korea's totalitarian dictatorship invalidates the 1st Amendment.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605413]It invalidates nothing, and doesn't mean that I should accept anything. Otherwise, I guess nobody in America should be allowed to complain about anything ever. As long as you're not the single worst country, you have nothing to complain about, I guess.[/QUOTE]Accepting anything? No, of course not, but I seem to have singled you out specifically for a behavioral trend that's pissed me off and I'm sorry for not informing you of that.
You can get angry and speak out against any injustice, that should be something you do automatically, but it should be proportional. When people get outraged over minor inconveniences we usually label these people as mentally unstable [i]because they often are.[/i] Likewise treating this as if it were the most awful thing to happen is stupid and it makes people take you less seriously.
[QUOTE=Anderan;48605428]Wait, I fail to see how a bathroom useable by both genders is the same as a water fountain only usable by one race.[/QUOTE]
I used that analogy because I find it similar to 'separate but equal' thinking. So, I'm in a bathroom different from everyone else but it counts right? Same to me as 'well we gave you an equally good water fountain so even though you're still separated and we aren't acknowledging you're as being as good as we are it still counts, right?
Maybe it's not the best analogy, but I think it works. Hard to explain.
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