200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48605452]I used that analogy because I find it similar to 'separate but equal' thinking. So, I'm in a bathroom different from everyone else but it counts right? Same to me as 'well we gave you an equally good water fountain so even though you're still separated and we aren't acknowledging you're as being as good as we are it still counts, right?
Maybe it's not the best analogy, but I think it works. Hard to explain.[/QUOTE]
Then instead of saying "unisex bathrooms are unacceptable" propose moving all bathrooms to unisex. Like I said specific sex bathrooms are closer to "separate but equal" than unisex bathrooms.
[QUOTE=Anderan;48605464]Then instead of saying "unisex bathrooms are unacceptable" propose moving all bathrooms to unisex. Like I said specific sex bathrooms are closer to "separate but equal" than unisex bathrooms.[/QUOTE]
I actually think we really should just have a 'bathroom', though that's another debate in and of itself. But if we're going to have separate ones, it's important to me to be on the right side of it.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605448]
saying =/= acting
[/QUOTE]
Okay, I still don't see how anyone's acting like this is comparable to genocide.
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Yes, I had to explain what gender dysphoria is because apparently Kyle didn't know that it was a deviance from the baseline model of your standard human unit.
[/quote]
The problem that you said it was sexual deviance. It isn't sexual deviance in any sense other than the utterly semantic. You didn't [B]have[/B] to explain anything.
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You're also not-so-subtly implying I'm cis and hetero too, great going.
[/quote]
No, but honestly I have a hard time believing otherwise considering how hard you're working trying to convince trans people they're sexual deviants.
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I never said that without universal recognition rights are invalid, I don't understand how you inferred this from my pretty clear language. I did say that rights are certainly invalid in certain context, as is the case in Nigeria. Hell, I'd say most of Europe violates a basic human right by not allowing people to freely arm themselves and defend their life and property with lethal force if necessary. Europe's cultural differences doesn't invalidate the 2nd Amendment any more than North Korea's totalitarian dictatorship invalidates the 1st Amendment.
[/quote]
So what you're saying is that your whole thing about "but it's worse somewhere else!" is totally irrelevant? Great.
[quote]
You can get angry and speak out against any injustice, that should be something you do automatically, but it should be proportional. When people get outraged over minor inconveniences we usually label these people as mentally unstable [I]because they often are.[/I] Likewise treating this as if it were the most awful thing to happen is stupid and it makes people take you less seriously.[/quote]
You're heading right to hyperbole when there's been no one saying nor acting as if it's the most awful thing to happen. Surely if the point of the discussion was drawing comparisons between this and ISIS then maybe you'd have a point. The point is that for the transgender person this is way more than a minor inconvenience most of the time as a result of other people's ignorance and intolerance.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605448]saying =/= acting[/quote]
So you've managed to misconstrue everything we've said while putting words in our mouths.
[quote]
Yes, I had to explain what gender dysphoria is because apparently Kyle didn't know that it was a deviance from the baseline model of your standard human unit.[/quote]
Oh boy here we fucking go.
First off as I've already said my reading comprehension is in fact completely fine. Yours however appears to be lacking as you've managed to misconstrue the term sexual deviancy. You know
The term synonymous with paraphilia?
AKA the term that means
" Sexual excitement to the point of erection and/or orgasm, when the object of that excitement is considered abnormal in the context of the learned societal norms (paraphilia)."
So unless your implying I achieve sexual gratification from my dysphoria then you're the one who fucked up here.
Good work there.
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You're also not-so-subtly implying I'm cis and hetero too, great going.[/quote]
Literally no one implied it. Stop trying to purposely misinterpret people.
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I never said that without universal recognition rights are invalid, I don't understand how you inferred this from my pretty clear language. I did say that rights are certainly invalid in certain context, as is the case in Nigeria. Hell, I'd say most of Europe violates a basic human right by not allowing people to freely arm themselves and defend their life and property with lethal force if necessary. Europe's cultural differences doesn't invalidate the 2nd Amendment any more than North Korea's totalitarian dictatorship invalidates the 1st Amendment.[/quote]
Fucking what???? The only snippet I can gather from this here left field post you've made is that you somehow thing that the Amendments of the US constitution are/should be followed by the rest of the world?
[quote]
You can get angry and speak out against any injustice, that should be something you do automatically, but it should be proportional. When people get outraged over minor inconveniences we usually label these people as mentally unstable [i]because they often are.[/i] Likewise treating this as if it were the most awful thing to happen is stupid and it makes people take you less seriously.[/QUOTE]
Except it is in fact the other side of the debate thats treating this "like its the most awful thing ever".
Furthermore outrage against discrimination is most certainly not a sign of "the mentally unstable"
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605436]I'd love for you to quote where literally anyone said that.[/QUOTE]acting =/= saying
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605436]How the fuck is being trans sexually deviant?[/QUOTE]I'll take a page from your book and ask you to quote where I said gender dysphoria is sexual deviancy and not a plain deviance from something that is common.
Or you could be one of those people who think that everyone's secretly in the closet and it's really the cissies who are the odd ones out.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605436]. Are you seriously arguing that not being mildly discomforted is a human right? Or that discrimination by the majority is a human right?[/QUOTE]No.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605436]Yeah man that 28% increased likelihood of experiencing violence compared to that of gender normative people is unbelievably small right?[/QUOTE]Compared to the 100% in, say, Syria?
Yeah that's unbelievably small.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605436]So the substance of your argument is that we should be grateful we don't live in a shithole. Jesus christ[/QUOTE]Yeah I'd say that's something to be grateful for, I'm pretty thankful that I've had the privilege of growing up in the USA instead of Liberia.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605436]Then where the hell do you draw this arbitrary line the sand?[/QUOTE]I'd say it would be situational, like with most things.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605470]Okay, I still don't see how anyone's acting like this is comparable to genocide.[/QUOTE]I'll concede that this is a vague point that's ultimately stupid to argue, it's about my perspective and how the hell do I prove that?
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605470]The problem that you said it was sexual deviance. It isn't sexual deviance in any sense other than the utterly semantic. You didn't [B]have[/B] to explain anything.[/QUOTE]Oh, [i]my bad[/i] you seem to be absolutely fucking mistaken but I can fix this.
Here's the portion you're referring to:
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605333]This is literally the reason why people stay so entrenched in ignorant beliefs, "well fuck them they're dumb they should believe what I believe" doesn't exactly go over well with the [b]right-leaning crowd[/b] who [b]takes issue[/b] with the very concept of gender dysphoria. You're combining several concepts that piss these people off in the worst possible way, namely sexual deviancy and telling them what to believe and speaking from a self-imposed position of moral superiority that directly conflicts with their belief system.[/QUOTE]
I bolded the portions that are pertinent to the discussion, namely [i]who I was actually talking about and not my own personal beliefs.[/i]
Holy shit people, settle the fuck down.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605470]I have a hard time believing otherwise considering how hard you're working trying to convince trans people they're sexual deviants.[/QUOTE]I realized I just covered this but I'm going to respond to this specifically with this: your belief is not required for anything, but for argument's sake let's say I was calling trans people dirty dirty sexual perverts and deviants. Maybe I'm self-loathing?
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605470]So what you're saying is that your whole thing about "but it's worse somewhere else!" is totally irrelevant? Great.[/QUOTE]No. I'm not going to explain myself again, so just re-read it or something.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605470]You're heading right to hyperbole when there's been no one saying nor acting as if it's the most awful thing to happen. Surely if the point of the discussion was drawing comparisons between this and ISIS then maybe you'd have a point. The point is that for the transgender person this is way more than a minor inconvenience most of the time as a result of other people's ignorance and intolerance.[/QUOTE]Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but you do have to admit there is a propensity for Nancy Grace levels of overreaction in the LGBTQ spectrum, if you haven't experienced it then I pray you never do.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605479]Fucking what???? The only snippet I can gather from this here left field post you've made is that you somehow thing that the Amendments of the US constitution are/should be followed by the rest of the world?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Kyle902;48605479]Except it is in fact the other side of the debate thats treating this "like its the most awful thing ever".
Furthermore outrage against discrimination is most certainly not a sign of "the mentally unstable"[/quote]I'll use your own post to reply to you:
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605479]Literally no one implied it. Stop trying to purposely misinterpret people.[/QUOTE]Also, AtomicWaffle just said it was implied so...
You're right, you were referring to how the right-wing views trans people as sexual deviants. My mistake.
I'd still contest that appealing to the majority is foolish, as that's a fast-track to regressive and inhumane treatment of minority groups.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605505]
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but you do have to admit there is a propensity for Nancy Grace levels of overreaction in the LGBTQ spectrum, if you haven't experienced it then I pray you never do.[/QUOTE]
I go to an intensely liberal university and am confronted with it all the time. It has less to do with the average LGBTQ person and a particular kind of activist busybody within that population. It seems like that's the kind of person you seem to think you're arguing against here, but it really isn't. Those kinds of people are trying really, really hard to be special. Which is really the opposite of what most trans people are striving to be, which is to be seen as normal.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48605519]I go to an intensely liberal university and am confronted with it all the time. It has less to do with the average LGBTQ person and a particular kind of activist busybody within that population. It seems like that's the kind of person you seem to think you're arguing against here, but it really isn't. Those kinds of people are trying really, really hard to be special. Which is really the opposite of what most trans people are striving to be, which is to be seen as normal.[/QUOTE]Yeah, maybe I am seeing the posts here in a different light considering that this topic has caused a shitfest on an IRC channel I frequent and on another forum. I apologize for that, everything sort of got blurred together, likely why some of the posts I was trying to quote aren't even in the thread so I was a [i]little[/i] confused. Sorry about that.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
Also I'd like to point out that personal beliefs aside, I firmly believe that in this case appealing to the majority doesn't necessarily violate the rights of Perry and it's the more prudent option.
Why do gender-segregated bathrooms even exist anymore.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605505]acting =/= saying[/QUOTE]
Got it so you selectively interpret things so you can say inane bullshit.
[quote]
I'll take a page from your book and ask you to quote where I said gender dysphoria is sexual deviancy and not a plain deviance from something that is common.[/quote]
So we've reached the point where we selectively quote my posts and ignore the two comprehensive explanations as to why you've completely and utterly misused the term sexual deviancy. Got it.
As for quotes of you saying that 'namely sexual deviancy and telling them what to believe and speaking from a self-imposed position of moral superiority that directly conflicts with their belief system.'
[quote]
Or you could be one of those people who think that everyone's secretly in the closet and it's really the cissies who are the odd ones out.[/quote]
Here we see you selectively misinterpreting vague comments to make inane statements. Got it.
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No.[/quote]
Then praytell what did you hope to accomplish with that statement? It serves no function in any other respect.
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Compared to the 100% in, say, Syria?[/quote]
We don't live in Syria and I fucking doubt that syria has a "100%" rate of violent crime.
an increase in 28% is incredibly significant compared to the rest of the population of the US. "But its worse elsewhere!!" is not a valid argument.
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Yeah that's unbelievably small.[/quote]
28% is a very highly statistically significant amount. in the context of the US that means you're over 25% more likely to randomly get violently attacked then everyone else. [quote]
[quote]
Yeah I'd say that's something to be grateful for, I'm pretty thankful that I've had the privilege of growing up in the USA instead of Liberia.[/quote]
If the substance of your argument is "Well be greteful you don't live in liberia!!!" then your argument has no substance.
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I'd say it would be situational, like with most things.[/quote]
Man you'd be a fucking great politician with your "not actually answer" answers. Perhaps you'd like to give a reply to my statement that has actual substance to it.
[quote]
Oh, [I]my bad[/I] you seem to be absolutely fucking mistaken but at least you're handling it better than Kyle.[/quote]
I'm handling this just fine. I'm actually enjoying it. And you're one to talk about being "Absolutely fucking mistaken" Mr. "Sexual deviancy".
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Holy shit people, settle the fuck down.[/quote]
I'm just fine. Like I said I'm enjoying this.
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No. I'm not going to explain myself again, so just re-read it or something.[/quote]
You mean like i've repeatedly done regarding your misuse of terminology that you obviously have no understanding of? Don't expect of others what you do not expect of yourself.
[quote]
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but you do have to admit there is a propensity for Nancy Grace levels of overreaction in the LGBTQ spectrum, if you haven't experienced it then I pray you never do.[/quote]
I don't think "Nancy Grace levels of overreaction in the LGBTQ spectrum" is as endemic as you think. But of course you have your personal anecdotes that obviously trump us, right?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605544]I'm handling this just fine. I'm actually enjoying it. And you're one to talk about being "Absolutely fucking mistaken" Mr. "Sexual deviancy".[/QUOTE]I already demonstrated who I was talking about when I used the words "sexual" and "deviants" together in the same sentence: right-wing religious types.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605544]You mean like i've repeatedly done regarding your misuse of terminology that you obviously have no understanding of? Don't expect of others what you do not expect of yourself.[/QUOTE]And I'm going to respond to this because I can see the future so I'm going to nip it in the bud here. You're going to spend several posts pointing out how I supposedly called transgender people sexual deviants, and you're going to ignore everything I say contrary to it. I can quote myself and break down my post for you, but it won't matter. Why?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605544]I don't think "Nancy Grace levels of overreaction in the LGBTQ spectrum" is as endemic as you think. But of course you have your personal anecdotes that obviously trump us, right?[/QUOTE]Because you're my personal anecdote, baby. You're literally who I'm talking about.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
Actually, fuck it, I'm done for the night. I've got episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation waiting and they're not going to watch themselves.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48605568]I already demonstrated who I was talking about when I used the words "sexual" and "deviants" together in the same sentence: right-wing religious types.[/QUOTE]
Lets dissect this statement of yours.
[quote]You're combining several concepts that piss these people off in the worst possible way, namely sexual deviancy and telling them what to believe and speaking from a self-imposed position of moral superiority that directly conflicts with their belief system.[/quote]
In this statement you imply that its our sexual deviancy that "piss these people off", rather then saying its their perception of us as sexual deviants that "piss these people off". Given the wording of the statement how was I supposed to interpret it in any other way?
[quote]
And I'm going to respond to this because I can see the future so I'm going to nip it in the bud here. You're going to spend several posts pointing out how I supposedly called transgender people sexual deviants, and you're going to ignore everything I say contrary to it. I can quote myself and break down my post for you, but it won't matter. Why?[/quote]
Look at above statement
[quote]
Because you're my personal anecdote, baby. You're literally who I'm talking about.[/quote]
Even if I was using "Nancy Grace level of overreaction" I'd still be one person in millions. Far from endemic.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605382]Making us use gender neutral bathrooms is basically saying
"You're not actually female, you're something inbetween"[/QUOTE]
Which is the truth, whether you like it or not
I'll repeat what I said earlier; if your issue is that the person looks like 'a man', then why don't you offer to pay for her hormones or surgery? Then everybody's happy, right? Because apparently that's the only thing that matters to you; you [I]need[/I] that surgery so that you can replace the genitalia that nobody apart from you can see, or else you're not a woman yet!
So, uh... What about intersex people who identify as female but have a penis? Are they not allowed in either? Or can they go in any bathroom they want because they might have both sets? Do we need X-ray machines to check whether somebody's got a penis or vagina or whatever combination just so that we know where to send people?
idk how i feel about trans people using the resective locker rooms. as someone previously said, imagine going to school with someone for 12 year and then one day they want into the locker room on you changing and they say "oh its ok im a girl". a lot of people, progressively minded or not, would be uncomfortable with that.
perhaps seperate facilities? a 3rd locker room that anyone can use if they want?
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48605643]Do we need X-ray machines to check whether somebody's got a penis or vagina or whatever combination just so that we know where to send people?[/QUOTE]
You act like physicals aren't already a thing.
[QUOTE=Anderan;48605690]You act like physicals aren't already a thing.[/QUOTE]
Are they outside every school bathroom? I didn't realise security was that tight in the States.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48605693]Are they outside every school bathroom? I didn't realise security was that tight in the States.[/QUOTE]
I didn't realize physical sex changed so often it necessitates constant checking. Seriously your comment makes it sound like separating bathrooms by physical sex is something that makes labelling which bathroom someone goes into requires constant monitoring to prevent mistakes.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605382]Making us use gender neutral bathrooms is basically saying
"You're not actually female, you're something inbetween"[/QUOTE]
no offense, but that's kinda the case?
they haven't transitioned yet, thus they're not physically female.
where the hell did the idea that bathrooms are seperated by gender and not by sex come from, anyway
Why are people looking at other peoples junk in bathrooms anyways. Though if it's a shower situation where everyone is in the open I can understand some of the concern.
[QUOTE=elowin;48605836]no offense, but that's kinda the case?
they haven't transitioned yet, thus they're not physically female.
where the hell did the idea that bathrooms are seperated by gender and not by sex come from, anyway[/QUOTE]
They transitioned socially. Which should be enough to allow them to use the bathroom of their identified gender.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48605884]They transitioned socially. Which should be enough to allow them to use the bathroom of their identified gender.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=elowin;48605836]where the hell did the idea that bathrooms are seperated by gender and not by sex come from, anyway[/QUOTE]
Bathrooms are seperated by your sex, not your gender.
Really this more boils down to the west's massive prudence with anything involving genitals. Its not that they don't want someone in a bathroom because they are transgender, its because there is a penis involved.
Can people please stop referring to the [b]locker rooms[/b] as [b]bathrooms[/b] because they are entirely different thanks guys.
Can anyone transgender or in their support give me an explanation of what it is and why I should support it, beyond it being how someone else feels?
[QUOTE=TFA;48606196]Can anyone transgender or in their support give me an explanation of what it is and why I should support it, beyond it being how someone else feels?[/QUOTE]
Being transgender is when you have essentially the mind of a gender different from the body you were born into. That is, you're a man in a woman's body, or vice versa.
It gets more complicated than that when you factor in shit like being genderqueer and all that but that's the root of it.
You should support it because there's a lot of evidence pointing towards its legitimacy but that [b]doesn't[/b] mean that you have to blindly support transgender people.
[QUOTE=geel9;48606148]Can people please stop referring to the [b]locker rooms[/b] as [b]bathrooms[/b] because they are entirely different thanks guys.[/QUOTE]
Alright fine, locker rooms are seperated by your sex, not your gender.
[QUOTE=elowin;48606387]Alright fine, locker rooms are seperated by your sex, not your gender.[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
holy crap, what a shitstorm. where to start?
it seems like people are very quick to jump on the discrimination/ignorance bandwagon. this young man identifies himself as a female, no problems, hell good for him. but that doesn't entitle him to use the female changerooms/bathrooms/toilets because the segregation is based on biology not personal identity.
sure, someone who is not obviously transgender is unlikely to even be noticed when they walk in amongst other girls; the difference here is this "girl" has been a guy in the eyes of the other students for years. and will, for better or worse, still be identified as a male by the majority until he does indeed have SRS. so to them, they are having a guy try and create reasons to be allowed to invade their personal space.
i can't understand why (s)he doesn't just tolerate the gender neutral rooms for now until the student community accept her change of gender role. it's not an easy road, but lets be honest being abrasive is not going to make people accept her. if she ends up in the female assigned rooms, the girls who are uncomfortable will just refuse to use them at the same time as her.
"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and all that shit.
[QUOTE=elowin;48605911]Bathrooms are seperated by your sex, not your gender.[/QUOTE]
Then why do the signs on bathroom doors represent the differences between the bathrooms using clothes? People with female sex can wear pants and people with male sex can wear dresses. Clothes are typically gender expression.
Also, for all the people saying "I could decide I'm a girl and transition tomorrow," yes you could. But then if your "decision" was unfounded, suddenly you're stuck with the dysphoria that makes transpeoples' lives hell and compels them to transition in the first place, plus all of the bigotry that transpeople recieve every day.
[QUOTE=Baboo00;48607158]Then why do the signs on bathroom doors represent the differences between the bathrooms using clothes? People with female sex can wear pants and people with male sex can wear dresses. Clothes are typically gender expression.
Also, for all the people saying "I could decide I'm a girl and transition tomorrow," yes you could. But then if your "decision" was unfounded, suddenly you're stuck with the dysphoria that makes transpeoples' lives hell and compels them to transition in the first place, plus all of the bigotry that transpeople recieve every day.[/QUOTE]
Because vaginas are hard to depict in cartoon form?
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