• 200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
    491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Baboo00;48607158]Then why do the signs on bathroom doors represent the differences between the bathrooms using clothes? People with female sex can wear pants and people with male sex can wear dresses. Clothes are typically gender expression. Also, for all the people saying "I could decide I'm a girl and transition tomorrow," yes you could. But then if your "decision" was unfounded, suddenly you're stuck with the dysphoria that makes transpeoples' lives hell and compels them to transition in the first place, plus all of the bigotry that transpeople recieve every day.[/QUOTE] For the sign part it's probably because a big swinging dick between the male bathrooms legs would be in poor taste.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48606983][citation needed][/QUOTE] And the same goes for your assumption that it is gender based, which would be entirely pointless. [editline]3rd September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Baboo00;48607158]Then why do the signs on bathroom doors represent the differences between the bathrooms using clothes? People with female sex can wear pants and people with male sex can wear dresses. Clothes are typically gender expression.[/QUOTE] Because that's an extremely easy way to depict it, which just about anyone can instantly read. And what plunger said, also.
Gender neutral bathrooms and locker rooms are the future, but first we need to have everyone on actual equal footing as human beings, but that future is so far off it isn't even funny.
Down the slippery slope we go!
[QUOTE=BANNED USER;48607663]Gender neutral bathrooms and locker rooms are the future, but first we need to have everyone on actual equal footing as human beings, but that future is so far off it isn't even funny.[/QUOTE] Still seems like a bad idea to put a bunch of horny teenagers in the same locker for changing showering.
[QUOTE=plunger435;48607690]Still seems like a bad idea to put a bunch of horny teenagers in the same locker for changing showering.[/QUOTE] It only doesn't work in places that have puritanical and shame filled views about sexuality and we raise our kids with that framework So most of the world where we still feel shame about the naked body
What would be really helpful is if we had an actual certified expert on transgender identity that could address the specific things we find ourselves debating about with research sources and facts. We can all say 'this is how X is, period' back and forth but we'll all just be stuck arguing semantics until things are empirically backed up. I've been looking over what I could find about the scientific consensus on this matter and it seems like as far as psychology goes its pretty much guesswork. I know all too well the danger and ignorance that can come from questioning 'the experts' but with a field like psychology, yet I find myself unconvinced not because I don't want to accept the consensus of the experts but rather because it sounds like there isn't actually a consensus. I look up a few articles on this specific issue by 'experts' only to see it torn apart by respondents afterwards, and citation for the basis for claims made by said experts seems to be missing every time or otherwise I'll find what was cited is also being heavily debated. It doesn't help that I hear of things like 100 psychology experiments being replicated and 64 of them failing to yield the same results as before as a recent bit of science news that made its way to the top of reddit a week ago. I really have no idea what to conclude. Maybe all of this confusion is a symptom of the fact that when one goes to research psychology it looks an awful lot like an inexact science. I'd like to assume it is not an inexact science but I'm one of those people that just has this sense that it's necessary to question everything, including authority, just for the sake of argument.
[QUOTE=elowin;48606387]Alright fine, locker rooms are seperated by your sex, not your gender.[/QUOTE] Well, I believe when the gender segregation norm began (some 100 years ago) there was no idea that sex and gender were different. So nobody even precisely knows what the distinction should be based on. The fact they're intended for one sex or gender only results that the problem with it is continuously highlighted, like now. Is a passing post-op trans person still biologically their born sex or not? What even is the purpose of pondering this? [url=http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary]Truth is, there is no way as of yet to absolutely determine what someone's sex or gender is.[/url] So the segregation is ultimately pointless. "But people get uncomfortable" Unfortunate, but it doesn't give them a moral justification. In my country mixed gender bathing areas are very much normal and this has no adverse effect on anyone, so what logical reason is there to be afraid of it?
[QUOTE=plunger435;48607690]Still seems like a bad idea to put a bunch of horny teenagers in the same locker for changing showering.[/QUOTE] How do gay kids manage it?
[QUOTE=Talishmar;48608103]Well, I believe when the gender segregation norm began (some 100 years ago) there was no idea that sex and gender were different. So nobody even precisely knows what the distinction should be based on.[/QUOTE] Gender segregation norm began a lot longer than 100 years ago. It can easily be traced back thousands of years. [QUOTE][url=http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary]Truth is, there is no way as of yet to absolutely determine what someone's sex or gender is.[/url] So the segregation is ultimately pointless. [/QUOTE] You're taking evidence from the tiny minority of outliers and making a conclusion about the general public, that's not how it works. For essentially all non-trans individuals it's extremely easy to identify their sex and gender. For the vast majority of people the segregation is easy and obvious. The fact that a tiny minority can't be directly identified doesn't lead to the logical conclusion that no one can be identified. [QUOTE]"But people get uncomfortable" Unfortunate, but it doesn't give them a moral justification. In my country mixed gender bathing areas are very much normal and this has no adverse effect on anyone, so what logical reason is there to be afraid of it?[/QUOTE] Right, and in some tribal societies people are cannibals with no adverse effects. If you want to appeal to some objective moral standard, then I would love to see how you know that your standard is right.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48608380]How do gay kids manage it?[/QUOTE] Very hard for them
[QUOTE=Talishmar;48608103]Well, I believe when the gender segregation norm began (some 100 years ago) there was no idea that sex and gender were different. So nobody even precisely knows what the distinction should be based on. The fact they're intended for one sex or gender only results that the problem with it is continuously highlighted, like now. Is a passing post-op trans person still biologically their born sex or not? What even is the purpose of pondering this? [url=http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary]Truth is, there is no way as of yet to absolutely determine what someone's sex or gender is.[/url] So the segregation is ultimately pointless. "But people get uncomfortable" Unfortunate, but it doesn't give them a moral justification. In my country mixed gender bathing areas are very much normal and this has no adverse effect on anyone, so what logical reason is there to be afraid of it?[/QUOTE] there's actually a pretty simply and practical reason why there is this seperation the vast majority of people are attracted to the opposite sex even with a bathroom i'm sure the issues with this should be fairly apparent, but in a locker room, where people change clothes, this is an incredibly obvious issue, solved very easily through segregation
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48607763]It only doesn't work in places that have puritanical and shame filled views about sexuality and we raise our kids with that framework So most of the world where we still feel shame about the naked body[/QUOTE] I think it's a bad idea to force girls to change in front of boys in highschool. It's a huge invasion of privacy. I think a third, gender neutral bathroom should be a choice but not forced. If a girl doesn't want some immature horny teenage dickhead to watch her undress she shouldn't have to
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48608526]I think it's a bad idea to force girls to change in front of boys in highschool. It's a huge invasion of privacy. I think a third, gender neutral bathroom should be a choice but not forced. If a girl doesn't want some immature horny teenage dickhead to watch her undress she shouldn't have to[/QUOTE] Because only girls could ever be uncomfortable undressing in front of someone, right.
[QUOTE=elowin;48608470]there's actually a pretty simply and practical reason why there is this seperation the vast majority of people are attracted to the opposite sex even with a bathroom i'm sure the issues with this should be fairly apparent, but in a locker room, where people change clothes, this is an incredibly obvious issue, solved very easily through segregation[/QUOTE] but surely by that logic gay people shouldn't be allowed into their own sex's locker room?
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602064]I'm not trying to be offensive! Not at all. That's why I changed my example. "I was born white, but I feel like I'm really African American"[/QUOTE] It's a non-issue. These people just want to pee in a place where they won't be stared at and ridiculed for being what appears to be a female entering the men's room or vice versa. They want to feel comfortable with themselves and their identity. Why is that such an issue with you? I know, I know, old as shit post. I still wanted to reply.
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;48608610]It's a non-issue. These people just want to pee in a place where they won't be stared at and ridiculed for being what appears to be a female entering the men's room or vice versa. They want to feel comfortable with themselves and their identity. Why is that such an issue with you? I know, I know, old as shit post. I still wanted to reply.[/QUOTE] The person in question looks more like a man than a woman. So, no, this has nothing to do with being thought of as a woman in a man's area.
Why do we separate bathrooms by gender anyway? When and where did that even start?
[QUOTE=sgman91;48608625]The person in question looks more like a man than a woman. So, no, this has nothing to do with being thought of as a woman in a man's area.[/QUOTE] I suppose, though I've seen quite a few non-trans women who looked more like men than women. If that's their logic then wouldn't they be treated the same? The outrage is more widespread than just this one incident though, and there are quite a few trans-women who visually fit their gender identity as well as any non-trans woman. Besides bigotry derived from ignorance of gender dysphoria, there is no real issue here. These people just want to feel comfortable with their identities, and having to go to the bathroom of the gender they don't identify with just furthers their dysphoria. They're affecting no one but themselves, just let them pee in peace.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48608526]I think it's a bad idea to force girls to change in front of boys in highschool. It's a huge invasion of privacy. I think a third, gender neutral bathroom should be a choice but not forced. If a girl doesn't want some immature horny teenage dickhead to watch her undress she shouldn't have to[/QUOTE] Yeah excuse me but as a young kid I would have been wildly uncomfortable with as a male. Don't single just girls out. But my point still stands that the discomfort both sexes would feel would be bad but still societally caused
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48608526]I think it's a bad idea to force girls to change in front of boys in highschool. It's a huge invasion of privacy. I think a third, gender neutral bathroom should be a choice but not forced. If a girl doesn't want some immature horny teenage dickhead to watch her undress she shouldn't have to[/QUOTE] Could you not just give everyone proper dressing rooms so they don't have to change in front of other people? I had the same issue in highschool. I downright refused to change in front of other people in the locker rooms, and we were all the same sex.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48608446]Very hard for them[/QUOTE] Is it really
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48608997]Is it really[/QUOTE] Extremely hard. Turgid, perhaps.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48609063]Extremely hard. Turgid, perhaps.[/QUOTE] All puns aside, as a bisexual male it is actually extremely uncomfortable. Quite the rigid situation.
[QUOTE=elowin;48608470]there's actually a pretty simply and practical reason why there is this seperation the vast majority of people are attracted to the opposite sex even with a bathroom i'm sure the issues with this should be fairly apparent, but in a locker room, where people change clothes, this is an incredibly obvious issue, solved very easily through segregation[/QUOTE] So what about gay and lesbian people? If the sole basis for the segregation is sexual attraction then should we not segregate gays and lesbians from the general populace of the campus as well? [editline]3rd September 2015[/editline] I like how people are saying we're making a big deal out of it but we just want to use the damned restroom. We're not the ones walking out of school or asking the world to adopt gender neutral bathrooms.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48608380]How do gay kids manage it?[/QUOTE] typically, they don't tell anyone in that room/school they are gay. or have people walk out when they walk in under the presumption that they might get checked out. the few people who know they are gay and are still comfortable tend to have solid identity, or at least tolerance. as a straight male with decently solid personal identity and body image i wouldn't mind gender neutral changrooms; could be fun. but all this is irrelevant to some degree since the segregation is basically based on your set of genitals, and he is one person who feels entitled to go somewhere that other people don't want him. it will never end well. it would be like me demanding the government let me live in an aboriginal community as a white guy who "feels" like an aboriginal. they would probably kick me out at best, kill me at worst. and the government should just slap the back of my head.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;48610435]typically, they don't tell anyone in that room/school they are gay. or have people walk out when they walk in under the presumption that they might get checked out. as a straight male with decently solid personal identity and body image i wouldn't mind gender neutral changrooms; could be fun. but all this is irrelevant to some degree since the segregation is basically based on your set of genitals, and he is one person who feels entitled to go somewhere that other people don't want him. it will never end well. it would be like me demanding the government let me live in an aboriginal community as a white guy who "feels" like an aboriginal. they would probably kick me out at best, kill me at worst. and the government should just slap the back of my head.[/QUOTE] First of she's a she, using him simply shows that you have quite a bit of ignorance about the topic at hand. Second off why would a female NOT be entitled to use the womans restroom? She's female in literally every way that matters except for the unfortunate circumstance of having the wrong set of genitalia. Something that will literally never be seen in the restroom unless you have people going out of their way to peek into the stalls. Furthermore your comparison is not even remotely accurate. You do not "feel" transgender. There's quite a bit of physical neurological stuff that goes with it.
You can't force people to be comfortable in a private environment.
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;48610499]You can't force people to be comfortable in a private environment.[/QUOTE] We're not forcing anything. We understand their discomfort. But the alternative people are suggesting is completely absurd. Its the goddamned restroom. We're not going to go in there and flash our genitals into random stalls. Asking every place to suddenly adopt gender neutral bathrooms or otherwise install one is completely and utterly asinine. It would be logistically impossible and a complete waste of money. The only viable alternatives are either to completely disallow us from using the restroom or stop giving so much of a shit about a willy you'll never see and let us use the fucking restroom.
Number of people affected by her NOT USING the girls locker/bath room (as opposed to the gender neutral rooms): 1 Number of people affected by her USING the girls locker/bath room: >1 (possibly up to 200 or more) Putting a single student in a special position over the general student body because the one student feels uncomfortable will cause the number of students that feel uncomfortable to rise. I understand that it probably sucks that she isn't being allowed to use the girl's facilities, but at the same time, that's not reason enough to sacrifice the ease of mind of up to (if not more than) 200 students. Handicap students also aren't allowed to play on the varsity basketball team. That sucks. It isn't necessarily their fault, and they might WANT to be on the varsity basketball team, but it would affect the ENTIRE TEAM if they were to play in an actual game. Sometimes it's better to think of it less in terms of how it affects the individual, and more on how it affects the group. If this wasn't the case, I don't know how anything would ever get done.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.