200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=tidus1112;48610575]Number of people affected by her NOT USING the girls locker/bath room (as opposed to the gender neutral rooms): 1
Number of people affected by her USING the girls locker/bath room: >1 (possibly up to 200 or more)[/quote]
Lets look at this actual "effect" you people keep harping about.
200 people experience mild discomfort
1 person feels quite a bit of emotional distress. Those 200 people are going to go home that day, maybe make a facebook post along the lines of "eww tranny", forget what happened, and then promptly go to sleep. That one person is going to go home feeling like shit in a way that will probably stick with her.
Furthermore you obviously didn't read the article. A good portion of the student body SUPPORTED her. Do you honestly think 200 people is the entire population of the campus?
[quote]
Putting a single student in a special position over the general student body because the one student feels uncomfortable will cause the number of students that feel uncomfortable to rise. I understand that it probably sucks that she isn't being allowed to use the girl's facilities, but at the same time, that's not reason enough to sacrifice the ease of mind of up to (if not more than) 200 students. [/quote]
Saying that the trans person is just uncomfortable is completely ignorant. Its quite a bit more then mere discomfort. The "ease of mind" of the 200 students literally won't be affected at all beyond "eww tranny" which they'll promptly forget after a few weeks. And again that 200 students isn't representative of the entire student body.
[quote]
Handicap students also aren't allowed to play on the varsity basketball team. That sucks. It isn't necessarily their fault, and they might WANT to be on the varsity basketball team, but it would affect the ENTIRE TEAM if they were to play in an actual game. [/quote]
This comparison makes literally no sense. A trans person is not going to be an actual detriment to the functional ability of the class just because she used the damned locker room. The extent of the burden she'll be placing is people going "eww tranny" and then moving on.
[quote]
Sometimes it's better to think of it less in terms of how it affects the individual, and more on how it affects the group. If this wasn't the case, I don't know how anything would ever get done.[/QUOTE]
Yes lets recap the effect on the group of people shall we.
200 people say "eww tranny", make fun of her, and then promptly stop giving a shit after a few months.
That one person meanwhile is going to feel like complete shit every time she goes to PE and probably quite a long while afterwards. Every. Single. Day.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48610635]Lets look at this actual "effect" you people keep harping about.
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More stuff, but snipped to save space
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[/QUOTE]
Who are you to say that the discomfort of those walking out is any less severe than hers? Who knows what they're thinking. Who knows what she is truly thinking. Putting thoughts in people's heads without some kind of evidence is silly.
Saying that people would make a facebook post saying "eww tranny" is just as ignorant as you people seem to think these students are being. I wouldn't support a female>male transgender student showering with males. I also don't think they are gross or bad in any way. I would just feel uncomfortable showering with someone who clearly has different parts.
Also, just because you support something doesn't mean you're affected by it. Those students who support her aren't directly affected by it at all unless they are also actively being confined to the gender neutral bathrooms. Also I never said the entire campus was made up of 200 people. Maybe it's 300, maybe 5000, who knows, who cares. The article mentions one person (supported by about 30-40 people) who wants to use the girls facilities, and 200 people who don't want her to use the facilities. I'm just going off of what the article states, which is all I can reasonably know about the situation.
Saying that the trans person isn't just uncomfortable is completely ignorant. It might not be more than mere discomfort. The "ease of mind" of the 200 students will certainly be affected beyond just saying "eww tranny", which they may not forget for a rather long period of time. And 200 students isn't even the entire student body, just the ones open enough to act on this issue.
--I'm not going to comment on what you said here because it's all just conjecture and wordplay can say the opposite thing with no more or less validity. I don't necessarily agree with what I just said in the previous paragraph, just making a point.
Also the handicap thing was a just a comparison. I'm not going to reiterate my point because you feel it wasn't adequate, I don't really know why I'm even responding to your post in the first place.
Assuming you know how she feels is great and all, but you don't, just as you don't know how the general student body feels.
---Also don't bother responding to this because I'm not going to look at the thread again, much less respond to someone.
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;48605355]It's quite funny that you guys are so quick to dismiss what the majority thinks as just a small feeling of discomfort or irrational gut emotion while saying that Perry's "discomfort" using a gender neutral bathroom is so important it should be acknowledged by the school rules. How is what she feels so much more important than what other girls feel?[/QUOTE]
We don't start accepting minorities by working on how the majority feels "uncomfortable". White people used to feel uncomfortable with blacks going to their same school, infact there was a story of a girl who went to an elementary school and every single parent withdrew their white kid from the school. Do you think that's a rational reaction? Do you think their feelings matter more than that black little girl who did nothing wrong? What ethical moral boundaries is a transgender student overstepping by using the girls bathroom?
I feel like this could be solved just by having stalls to shower in. Nobody has to see anyone else while showering.
[QUOTE=tidus1112;48610722]-snip because tirade with no purpose-.[/QUOTE]
If seeing a trans person affects someone that much then at that point its a problem with the person being a bigot rather then the trans person somehow being inherently offensive.
I'm also fairly certain I know how the she feels considering I've been subject to incredibly similar circumstance
[QUOTE=tidus1112;48610575]Number of people affected by her NOT USING the girls locker/bath room (as opposed to the gender neutral rooms): 1
Number of people affected by her USING the girls locker/bath room: >1 (possibly up to 200 or more[/QUOTE]
Okay up to 200 transphobic people
I don't care how many people there are. I'm not going to tell a black man "hey, you should leave" because there are 200 white supremasists who think he should. I mean, it's acomidating one person versus 200. It just makes sense, right?
Just because there's a mass of people, doesn't mean you should bend to their favor. That's ridiculous.
[QUOTE=tidus1112;48610575]Handicap students also aren't allowed to play on the varsity basketball team. That sucks. It isn't necessarily their fault, and they might WANT to be on the varsity basketball team, but it would affect the ENTIRE TEAM if they were to play in an actual game.
Sometimes it's better to think of it less in terms of how it affects the individual, and more on how it affects the group. If this wasn't the case, I don't know how anything would ever get done.[/QUOTE]
That analogy doesn't work. Handicap students are objectively worse at basketball than non-handicap students. No shit they're not allowed on the team, because they're [I]significantly[/I] worse. Getting changed in a locker room isn't a competition that'll be compramised by a transgirl.
And no, it's not. Shrugging and going "I don't know how anything would ever get done otherwise" is ridiculous, because guess what? Every civil rights movement appealing to a minority to make their lives decent. What, because it's only one person in this headline, it's not enough of a hassle to treat them like a human being like the rest? We can only start properly recognizing their rights when they become significantly more annoying?
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=elowin;48605836]no offense, but that's kinda the case?
they haven't transitioned yet, thus they're not physically female.
where the hell did the idea that bathrooms are seperated by gender and not by sex come from, anyway[/QUOTE]
Nope. She's realized that her gender is a woman, thus, she's a woman. That's all there is to it.
And same place that bathrooms are seperated by sex and not gender.
[QUOTE=tidus1112;48610575]Number of people affected by her NOT USING the girls locker/bath room (as opposed to the gender neutral rooms): 1
Number of people affected by her USING the girls locker/bath room: >1 (possibly up to 200 or more)
Putting a single student in a special position over the general student body because the one student feels uncomfortable will cause the number of students that feel uncomfortable to rise. I understand that it probably sucks that she isn't being allowed to use the girl's facilities, but at the same time, that's not reason enough to sacrifice the ease of mind of up to (if not more than) 200 students.
Handicap students also aren't allowed to play on the varsity basketball team. That sucks. It isn't necessarily their fault, and they might WANT to be on the varsity basketball team, but it would affect the ENTIRE TEAM if they were to play in an actual game.
Sometimes it's better to think of it less in terms of how it affects the individual, and more on how it affects the group. If this wasn't the case, I don't know how anything would ever get done.[/QUOTE]
They're bigots. They're about as affected by this as racists in the Southern US in the '50's and '60's seeing a black man drinking from a whites only water fountain.
I would prefer we not tolerate needless transphobia just because 200 dumb shits are willing to walk out of school over something so trivial. Fuck them and their idiotic sensibilities. These people make me ashamed of the general populace of my state.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611024]Tbh I support separate bathrooms. That way trans people don't have to be harassed even if they're allowed in, which they often will be. I don't really get when a lot of other trans people put huge stock into stuff like using correct bathrooms. I feel like it's rooted in rightful defensiveness and insecurity from having their identities unfairly denied lifelong spilling out into only superficially-related details of the experience. A lot of my trans friends get hung up on stuff like bathroom usage and I feel like it's a misdirection of the anger they rightfully experience towards more grand sleights.
I feel like a lot of trans people forget what they're there for in the first place. Through constant, excessive abuse at the hands of society, they adopt a defensive position, and their goal of being comfortable with their own body becomes everyone else being comfortable with their body instead. At first because other people bringing it up reminds them of how uncomfortable they are in the first person, but eventually it just becomes directly causative and that important and reasonable root cause in the middle gets lost.
I think this happens to everyone to an extent, even me. When it gets REALLY bad, you get tumblr people. When it happens only mildly, you get most trans people.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't really mind segregated bathrooms. The idea that it would be based around sex and not gender makes very little sense to me, though. It seems to cater to transphobes who do not understand gender dysphoria and therefore fear it. I've actually had people tell me that some men would be desperate enough to see some ass that they would assume the role of a transexual to use the opposite bathroom. That sounds kind of unlikely.
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;48608890]Could you not just give everyone proper dressing rooms so they don't have to change in front of other people?
I had the same issue in highschool. I downright refused to change in front of other people in the locker rooms, and we were all the same sex.[/QUOTE]
Obviously not. The homoerotic experience of the school bullies point and stare at your penis builds character in highschool
but for real, I think it'd be easier to just make the locker rooms something more like the changing rooms at a target. Just a bunch of cubicles. Nobody is showering, anyways
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611024]Tbh I support separate bathrooms. That way trans people don't have to be harassed even if they're allowed in, which they often will be. I don't really get when a lot of other trans people put huge stock into stuff like using correct bathrooms. I feel like it's rooted in rightful defensiveness and insecurity from having their identities unfairly denied lifelong spilling out into only superficially-related details of the experience. A lot of my trans friends get hung up on stuff like bathroom usage and I feel like it's a misdirection of the anger they rightfully experience towards more grand sleights.
I feel like a lot of trans people forget what they're there for in the first place. Through constant, excessive abuse at the hands of society, they adopt a defensive position, and their goal of being comfortable with their own body becomes everyone else being comfortable with their body instead. At first because other people bringing it up reminds them of how uncomfortable they are in the first person, but eventually it just becomes directly causative and that important and reasonable root cause in the middle gets lost.
I think this happens to everyone to an extent, even me. When it gets REALLY bad, you get tumblr people. When it happens only mildly, you get the attitude of most trans people. I definitely understand how anger and pain can build up and explode in all sorts of weird ways, but I think restraint is important when it comes to matters like your own safety. As it stands, it's kind of dangerous for trans people to go into their elected bathrooms. Not because of what they'd do, but because of what everyone else might.[/QUOTE]
Segregated bathrooms would be subject to even more violent discrimination then simply allowing us to use the gender correct bathroom. Unless you're actively groping people in the bathroom then you will literally never find out if that person is trans or not. Meanwhile segregating us to "our own bathroom" is basically hanging a sign up that tells bigots "tranny faggots go in here".
Not only that but I can guarantee that 0% of trans people will use the designated "gender neutral" bathroom if they can get away with it. Making places adopt gender neutral bathrooms is quite simply a waste of money that solely exists to appease bigots.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611137]Essentially what I'm saying is that the desire of most trans people to use certain bathrooms exists only because society tells them from infancy that they should feel that way or else they aren't "really" trans.
[editline]4th September 2015[/editline]
So the issue is really interesting and complicated.[/QUOTE]
I don't even get what you're trying to say here. Are you implying that we would be absolutely fine using the mens room if our society didn't rely on the gender binary? That's absolutely foolish if that's the case.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611168]I'm saying that the desire to present female in various ways, including having a female name and wearing feminine clothes, is due to growing up trans in our current society and isn't actually related to the root experience of transsexuality, which is fundamentally unrelated to presenting female in a social sense.[/QUOTE]
Following social expectations is an intrinsic part of "presenting female in a social sense". Pray tell what experience you have with the "root experience of transsexuality?" What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your explanations here? No shit we follow the gender binary
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611200]I'm saying that the problem goes deeper than just allowing trans people to use the correct bathrooms. Why are there correct and incorrect bathrooms for trans people in the first place?[/QUOTE]
Because society was developed in a way that follows a strict gender binary system? Yeah no shit. I fail to see the relevance to trans rights unless you're suggesting we somehow completely abandon the binary system which would be a far more convoluted solution to this problem then simply allowing us usage of the restroom...
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48611152]Unless you're actively groping people in the bathroom then you will literally never find out if that person is trans or not.[/QUOTE]
At the risk of sounding like an asshole unless you are already very masculine or feminine looking it's not that hard to tell someone's physical sex by looking at them.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611231]It'd solve the problem more completely though. It wouldn't be easy, but we could have it done in 100 years if we seriously started on it now, and in the scheme of things, that's not very long.[/QUOTE]
Its also a pipe dream thats very unlikely to happen. The gender binary system as it currently exists has been deeply ingrained into every facet of our culture for thousands of years it is not something that could be so easily abandoned without literally ripping our collective cultures to shreds, something which very few people would willingly do.
[QUOTE=Anderan;48611229]At the risk of sounding like an asshole unless you are already very masculine or feminine looking it's not that hard to tell someone's physical sex by looking at them.[/QUOTE]
Generally speaking, when a trans person is ready to use their identified gender's restroom they're also more then capable of blending in as their identified gender. Are there exceptions? Yes. Should it matter at all? No.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611251]Plus this, to an extent. I know plenty of transwomen who have gotten inordinate amounts of shit in female bathrooms from the other women there. If you're unlucky it can make you feel worse than using the men's room. These kinds of things are why neutral bathrooms can be good.[/QUOTE]
Ahh yes being a transwoman and going to a mens restroom in public. Something thats 10x more likely to get you screwed over then a woman identifying you as a transwoman in the woman's room.
Can people in the Woman's restroom be bigots? Yes. But as it stands your less likely to be outted and less likely to be attacked then if you went to the mens room.
Furthermore installing "gender neutral" bathrooms is a logistical impossibility. It's also a GREAT way to make it incredibly easy to single out trans people if you're a bigot.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611260]A lot of transwomen might not be comfortable using the male bathroom after a while because of how they look but also not feel comfortable using the female bathroom also because of how they look. I was stuck like that for a year. Having a place to go would've been really nice.[/QUOTE]
I completely understand that (seeing as i'm currently undergoing transition myself). But gender neutral bathrooms quite simply aren't a solution. It would be nigh impossible to install enough of them to matter for one thing. Another point is that going to the designated gender neutral bathroom is a great way of outting yourself as trans. More so then simply using the mens room or the womans room.
Bunch of hurtful ignorant twats, the lot of them.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611260]
In my experience, that doesn't really happen. Bigots generally don't up and hunt people down like that. People are bigots 99% of the time because they feel either afraid or threatened. That's why they're so dangerous. Cornered animals are dangerous, especially if the threat is imaginary. A cornered animal generally doesn't stalk.[/QUOTE]
That's the result of society. Gender neutral bathrooms will not solve that problem.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48611253]Generally speaking, when a trans person is ready to use their identified gender's restroom they're also more then capable of blending in as their identified gender. Are there exceptions? Yes. Should it matter at all? No.[/QUOTE]
I'm not really sure I get what you mean by "blending in". Prior to surgery or hormonal treatment there are just some things that you can't hide like voice or the shape of your face that are pretty good giveaways as to your physical sex.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611298]They'd provide a place where trans people can feel safer.[/QUOTE]
Yeah you'd feel safer in the bathroom. But in the end it won't solve anything, if anything it will add credence to the belief people have that trans people are not actually female or male.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Anderan;48611302]I'm not really sure I get what you mean by "blending in". Prior to surgery or hormonal treatment there are just some things that you can't hide like voice or the shape of your face that are pretty good giveaways as to your physical sex.[/QUOTE]
Generally speaking trans people don't try to use their identified genders bathroom before starting HRT so I don't exactly understand what you're getting at.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611314]I guess I just disagree. I just don't think people would see it that way. I don't think that's how people would think of it, also, don't just shit on feeling safe like it's not important. Sometimes you need to feel safe. It's really important, especially if you're a victim of abuse.[/QUOTE]
I understand feeling safe more then most. But quite frankly this is a stopgap solution to the deeper problem. Gender neutral bathrooms will not stop bigots.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48611304]Yeah you'd feel safer in the bathroom. But in the end it won't solve anything, if anything it will add credence to the belief people have that trans people are not actually female or male.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
Generally speaking trans people don't try to use their identified genders bathroom before starting HRT so I don't exactly understand what you're getting at.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm just getting confused because several people in this thread have argued you should be able to use the bathroom based on your identified gender rather than physical sex even if they aren't the same.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;48611329]Bigots won't just go into gender-neutral bathrooms to harass trans people because that's not how bigotry works. Not usually. Bigotry is defensive.[/QUOTE]
Just like how bigots won't go out of their way to install gender-neutral bathrooms.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48611325]I understand feeling safe more then most. But quite frankly this is a stopgap solution to the deeper problem. Gender neutral bathrooms will not stop bigots.[/QUOTE]
Men are not the only bigots.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48611342]Just like how bigots won't go out of their way to install gender-neutral bathrooms.[/QUOTE]
I'm honestly curious, what makes a person a bigot in your eyes? What beliefs move a person from being generally disagreeable to a bigot.
[QUOTE=geel9;48611355]Men are not the only bigots.[/QUOTE]
I never said they where?
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48611382]I'm honestly curious, what makes a person a bigot in your eyes? What beliefs move a person from being generally disagreeable to a bigot.[/QUOTE]
Someone eho willingly infringes on my rights as a human being.
The amount of stupidity, naivete and ignorance over the last couple of pages just makes me wonder how the fuck are you guys ever able to live in our society.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;48611393]The amount of stupidity, naivete and ignorance over the last couple of pages just makes me wonder how the fuck are you guys ever able to live in our society.[/QUOTE]
Care to elaborate?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48611383]Someone eho willingly infringes on my rights as a human being.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by rights? Legal rights? Natural rights? Some other idea of rights?
I'm just not seeing how disagreeing with the idea of being able to use whatever bathroom you want has anything to do with your rights. It seems to be more about a difference in ideal social norms, not rights.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48611417]What do you mean by rights? Legal rights? Natural rights? Some other idea of rights?
I'm just not seeing how disagreeing with the idea of being able to use whatever bathroom you want has anything to do with your rights. It seems to be more about a difference in social norms, not rights.[/QUOTE]
I dont get where you're going with this line of discussion other then semantics.
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