• 200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
    491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48626891]So where would you have us use the restroom then? Ignoring your obvious ignorance on the topic of trans people. Would you prefer we use the mens room and have a gaurunteed chance of being outted and verbally/physically/sexually abused? Or would you prefer all businesses to magically cough up the money to install a gender neutral bathroom? The fact of the matter is that even if you somehow made it illegal for trans people to use the bathroom of their identified gender it would be completely unenforceable unless you started groping people before they used the restroom or people somehow developed X-ray vision.[/QUOTE] in general? i agree with you; if someone looks like a girl, there is no reason for anyone to question them using the female facilities. it's not like we all inspect each others genitals to make sure we are in the right place, and even if we did, it would infringe on peoples rights to invade their personal space like that. but if a person wearing a dress and looking moderately female walks into the male toilets, the expectation is that they are in the wrong place without needing said genital examination, and people will get uncomfortable. we are talking about a very specific persons situation here, and most places/businesses will not have to deal with this situation. even if his [I]personal[/I] identity has changed, the identity his community [I]assigned[/I] to him doesn't change so easily. instead of trying to force his way into the female specific facilities and ostracizing himself further, he should use the gender neutral change rooms until the school community identify him as a female too, or at least until it blows over a bit. provoking this media shitstorm benefits no-one. you can't force people to accept you or be your friends... we're not talking about legality here (and i never said anything about making it illegal ffs lol), we are talking about customs and mores of a school community; if you want to be a part of a community, you have to adhere to acceptable behaviors determined by the majority. he's not doing that, and the community is reacting.
Heres the issue in this situation. Their is a gender neutral bathroom she doesnt want to use. So the school already has a gender neutral bathroom which is great. So why is it okay if she is honestly making other girls uncomfortable, who go to that same school everyday as well? Why do they suddenly not matter and only this singluar person does even if what they are doing is affecting others negatively? People can scream bigot or whatever all they want to these students but why do they not matter at all if they truly feel uncomfortable when the school already has a gender neutral bathroom that would have just been fine? Its a really bad way to look at things like this as if everyone else is wrong except for the trans person just because they are trans and their feelings are hurt. It sucks but other people matter as well, and the fact theirs already 3 bathrooms and not just male/female doesnt really help me feeling much for the trans student except that it kinda sucks. If this was about getting a gender neutral bathroom then this entire scenario would be completely different. But they have that. A majority of kids, even if its like 20 girls vs 1, shouldnt be trumped because of that single 1 if the others feel uncomfortable even though the 1 would feel uncomfortable unless she could use the bathroom. In a perfect world this wouldnt matter, but we dont live in one, and those uncomfortable students matter as well.
The whole point is that it isn't alright for them to feel uncomfortable around transwomen. Yes, the girls do feel uncomfortable. No, they shouldn't.
[QUOTE=Flameon;48640499]The whole point is that it isn't alright for them to feel uncomfortable around transwomen. Yes, the girls do feel uncomfortable. No, they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] If that is the case then why should transwomen feel uncomfortable around men? There is no trump argument here, and if it is based solely on feelings of uncomfortablility then the majority wins. Especially when there are gender neutral bathrooms. "They shouldn't feel uncomfortable" is the kind of thinking that people use when they advocate for gay-curing and shit like that.
I will grant you that is a pretty strong arguement. My immediete gut reaction to it leans toward the abolition of exclusive gender categories, but in the mean time I'd think she would be justified feeling uncomfortable around men because our society is already constructed in such a way that there is a feminine/masculine divide that incorporates a lot more (a heck of a lot more) than our genitalia and secondary sex characteristics. If you accept there is a feminine/masculine sex split, the question would be to which camp/side is someone on. And insofar as she chooses to identify with femininity, she is female. In the same ways it would be pretty fucked up for girls to feel uncomfortable around another girl who has had a mastectomy, or boys to feel uncomfortable around dudes with gynecomastia. But in no way, "they shouldn't feel uncomfortable" --> gay curing. I think thats a total leap. Saying people shouldn't be uncomfortable with a.) who they are, or b.) who other people are is the opposite of trying to assimilate them into whatever box you want them to get inside.
[QUOTE=Flameon;48640499]The whole point is that it isn't alright for them to feel uncomfortable around transwomen. Yes, the girls do feel uncomfortable. No, they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] They honestly have every right to feel uncomfortable if their is a gender neutral bathroom already. They dont have to feel comfortable with a non-transitioned trans using their locker room in high school. That doesnt mean they fully on are uncomfortable over transwomen. They have a sound argument in this case and its not ignorance or bigotry. You can even be tolerant and uncomfortable at the same time. We dont even know what type of person she is, what if she already creeps out some of the girls and it has nothing to do with being trans?
It's strange how so many people use the argument of "your feelings are invalid, get over it". That's awfully inconsiderate and ignorant, isn't it?
to everyone who keeps saying "if only she used a gender neutral bathroom this would be fine!!!" why cant a girl use the girls room
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48641054]It's strange how so many people use the argument of "your feelings are invalid, get over it". That's awfully inconsiderate and ignorant, isn't it?[/QUOTE] Why is that inconsiderate? I am acknowledging how they feel, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to change the way they feel. People who were socialized in the KKK feel extremely uncomfortable to be around black people - it isn't alright they feel that way. We can have empathy for their feelings and also believe we shouldn't give in to those feelings. [quote]We dont even know what type of person she is, what if she already creeps out some of the girls and it has nothing to do with being trans?[/quote] Except this walk-out wasn't about that, and we have no evidence to assume it was. And even if it was, that'd be pretty fucked up too right? "Ew teacher, Jenny picks her nose I don't want her to be able to go in the same bathroom as me."
Regarding the "just use the gender neutral bathroom" argument: [img]http://blog.ericharmatz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/segregated-water-fountains.jpg[/img]
i believe the term is positive discrimination. the idea that because the person is in a minority group, their opinions/feelings/issues matter more than anyone in the majority in some attempt to give everyone the same % of worth. to me it's just more politically correct knee-jerking, why should 1 persons opinions matter more than 2 in a community setting? the same kind of thinking requires a certain percentage of jobs be assigned to one gender/nationality with the expectation that it will fix the imbalances in our society; rather than fixing anything it just expands the divide, and makes it so we can't admit we can see that the nice black african man does indeed have black skin, or that the blind lady would make a terrible spotter for a sniper team. [QUOTE=Paige;48641208]why cant a girl use the girls room[/QUOTE] because his community group don't identify him as a girl. [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;48641701][t]http://blog.ericharmatz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/segregated-water-fountains.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] that's comparing a papercut with amputation. it's not really anything more than a kid trying to force their way into someone else's room on the grounds that they feel they have a right to be there. though since you brought it up, it would be similar if a black person in those times tried to use the "white" taps by saying "but i'm white now guys". right or wrong, he's still black, and the segregation was based on colour.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;48643702] that's comparing a papercut with amputation. it's not really anything more than a kid trying to force their way into someone else's room on the grounds that they feel they have a right to be there. though since you brought it up, it would be similar if a black person in those times tried to use the "white" taps by saying "but i'm white now guys". right or wrong, he's still black, and the segregation was based on colour.[/QUOTE] Your entire argument falls apart once you realize that transwomen are female in literally every way that actually matters. Also it is an incredibly apt analogy. You're forcing people to use a different facility for no reason other then social stigma and prejudice. Can you give me a valid reason to not let transpeople use their identified genders bathroom other then "It might make people uncomfortable" [editline]9th September 2015[/editline] Hell by your logic us transpeople shouldn't be allowed in public because theres a nonzero chance that our very presence will make people uncomfortable.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48650117]Your entire argument falls apart once you realize that transwomen are female in literally every way that actually matters. Also it is an incredibly apt analogy. You're forcing people to use a different facility for no reason other then social stigma and prejudice. Can you give me a valid reason to not let transpeople use their identified genders bathroom other then "It might make people uncomfortable" [editline]9th September 2015[/editline] Hell by your logic us transpeople shouldn't be allowed in public because theres a nonzero chance that our very presence will make people uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] It's a changing room, he's not a female since his sex is still male, and as supportive as I am of transgendered people I can easily understand why a bunch of high school girls might not want to see a dick in the locker room.
[QUOTE=plunger435;48650469]It's a changing room, he's not a female since his sex is still male, and as supportive as I am of transgendered people I can easily understand why a bunch of high school girls might not want to see a dick in the locker room.[/QUOTE] How can you be anywhere near supportive if you outright don't use the right pronouns
[QUOTE=Levithan;48650500]How can you be anywhere near supportive if you outright don't use the right pronouns[/QUOTE] Because the girls protesting see Perry as a man? That's the issue. To them she's still a he, and young woman are understandably uncomfortable around someone they perceive as a man while changing.
[QUOTE=Levithan;48650500]How can you be anywhere near supportive if you outright don't use the right pronouns[/QUOTE] Well first off, it is not like the person in question will ever read these to have their feelings offended, and second off it is easier for some people to refer in cases like this to the transgender person as their original gender if that is what is at issue, especially if they are pre-op. Its just a case of semantics and really besides the point. If he was saying it to a user on this forum then it would be a different story IMO.
It takes zero energy and costs literally nothing to show base level respect for people.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48650117]Your entire argument falls apart once you realize that transwomen are female in literally every way that actually matters.[/QUOTE] Of course the answer is obvious when you define your answer as the correct one at the beginning. Obviously other people don't agree that the physical is irrelevant, and since it's a social issue dealing with physical nakedness it's pretty relevant. [QUOTE]Can you give me a valid reason to not let transpeople use their identified genders bathroom other then "It might make people uncomfortable"[/QUOTE] Can you give me a valid reason to let trans-people use their identified gender's bathroom other than "It might make them uncomfortable?"
[QUOTE=Levithan;48650567]It takes zero energy and costs literally nothing to show base level respect for people.[/QUOTE] And you couldn't use any energy to even finish my post let alone respond to my point? That doesn't sound like respect. I can't ever tell if you're disagreeing with what I said or not.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48650117] Can you give me a valid reason to not let transpeople use their identified genders bathroom other then "It might make people uncomfortable"[/QUOTE] I'll just pop in here to say that the reverse will make people uncomfortable as well. Last year here in BC there was an mtf transgender woman who felt threatened by a proposal someone made in the parliament where you'd stay in your birth sex bathroom no matter what. To illustrate why that's a bad idea, she took photos of herself, physically entirely a woman apart from her birth sex inside the men's bathroom beside the urinals and asked if that was any better. Just look at these. [url]http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/03/17/trans-man-behind-wejustneedtopee-isnt-selfie-centered[/url]
[QUOTE=01271;48650681]I'll just pop in here to say that the reverse will make people uncomfortable as well. Last year here in BC there was an mtf transgender woman who felt threatened by a proposal someone made in the parliament where you'd stay in your birth sex bathroom no matter what. To illustrate why that's a bad idea, she took photos of herself, physically entirely a woman apart from her birth sex inside the men's bathroom beside the urinals and asked if that was any better. Just look at these. [url]http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/03/17/trans-man-behind-wejustneedtopee-isnt-selfie-centered[/url][/QUOTE] Because pre-op = post-op right?
[QUOTE=01271;48650681]I'll just pop in here to say that the reverse will make people uncomfortable as well. Last year here in BC there was an mtf transgender woman who felt threatened by a proposal someone made in the parliament where you'd stay in your birth sex bathroom no matter what. To illustrate why that's a bad idea, she took photos of herself, physically entirely a woman apart from her birth sex inside the men's bathroom beside the urinals and asked if that was any better. Just look at these. [URL]http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/03/17/trans-man-behind-wejustneedtopee-isnt-selfie-centered[/URL][/QUOTE] Thats half of my entire point? [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=plunger435;48650469]It's a changing room, he's not a female since his sex is still male, and as supportive as I am of transgendered people I can easily understand why a bunch of high school girls might not want to see a dick in the locker room.[/QUOTE] First off I wasn't even addressing the changing rooms, I was making a general statement. Second why the fuck did you get fully naked in the locker room? [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;48650651]Of course the answer is obvious when you define your answer as the correct one at the beginning. Obviously other people don't agree that the physical is irrelevant, and since it's a social issue dealing with physical nakedness it's pretty relevant.[/quote] Its irrelevant because "omg I might see dick" is not a valid excuse for a segregated bathroom [quote] Can you give me a valid reason to let trans-people use their identified gender's bathroom other than "It might make them uncomfortable?"[/quote] Easy. The alternatives are A. Make everyone install of a gender neutral bathroom, which is unlikely to happen. B. Or make us use the bathrooms of our birth sex. Something that will be markedly worse then simply letting us use the bathroom of our identified gender. Both of which are pretty bad compared to just letting us use the restroom.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48650117]Your entire argument falls apart once you realize that transwomen are female in literally every way that actually matters. Also it is an incredibly apt analogy. You're forcing people to use a different facility for no reason other then social stigma and prejudice. Can you give me a valid reason to not let transpeople use their identified genders bathroom other then "It might make people uncomfortable" [editline]9th September 2015[/editline] Hell by your logic us transpeople shouldn't be allowed in public because theres a nonzero chance that our very presence will make people uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] i get that this is very personal for you, but i think you are struggling to understand my point and providing a lot of kneejerk reactions. the idea that "she" is female in every way that matters is subjective, and not really a relevant argument. the fact that "she" has a penis, and that puts "her" in the male category for all intents and purposes is not subjective; we aren't debating how the segregation should work, but how it does. and it works based on the pair of genitals you have between your legs, and the way you are viewed by the community itself, not your personal identity. i couldn't care less if transgender people use the bathroom of their identified gender, in general i wholly support it. most of the time nobody would know them well enough to identify their gender, and would presume that they are in the right place. in this case however, this kid has been known to "her" community as a male for years; it doesn't just change because "she" suddenly says "i'm really a girl everybody, now let me in the girls changerooms". to stipulate that black/white racism and splitting bathrooms based on gender in a school is the same thing is just being dramatic. it is done for the emotional safety and privacy of students who are going through developmental changes, and used to reduce sexual activity in the schools. why should this kid get special treatment beyond gender neutral bathrooms at the expense of the other students ?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48651359]Thats half of my entire point? [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] First off I wasn't even addressing the changing rooms, I was making a general statement. Second why the fuck did you get fully naked in the locker room? [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] Its irrelevant because "omg I might see dick" is not a valid excuse for a segregated bathroom Easy. The alternatives are A. Make everyone install of a gender neutral bathroom, which is unlikely to happen. B. Or make us use the bathrooms of our birth sex. Something that will be markedly worse then simply letting us use the bathroom of our identified gender. Both of which are pretty bad compared to just letting us use the restroom.[/QUOTE] It's gym and sports, usually you shower after it's done.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48651359]Thats half of my entire point? [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] First off I wasn't even addressing the changing rooms, I was making a general statement. Second why the fuck did you get fully naked in the locker room? [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] Its irrelevant because "omg I might see dick" is not a valid excuse for a segregated bathroom Easy. The alternatives are A. Make everyone install of a gender neutral bathroom, which is unlikely to happen. B. Or make us use the bathrooms of our birth sex. Something that will be markedly worse then simply letting us use the bathroom of our identified gender. Both of which are pretty bad compared to just letting us use the restroom.[/QUOTE] This is about a changing room, not a bathroom. Its a pre-op MtF wanting to undress in a highschool girls gym locker room. Yes "Omg a dick" is a very valid reason if you are a 15-18 year old fucking high school girl in a locker room AT SCHOOL. If you really cant grasp this then somethings up. I don't understand why being trans, especially pre-op, somehow trumps everything and anything and everyone else is suddenly wrong and doesnt matter at all. Such a shitty and damaging outlook because its so kneejerk.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48652059]This is about a changing room, not a bathroom. Its a pre-op MtF wanting to undress in a highschool girls gym locker room. Yes "Omg a dick" is a very valid reason if you are a 15-18 year old fucking high school girl in a locker room AT SCHOOL. [B]If you really cant grasp this then somethings up.[/B] I don't understand why being trans, especially pre-op, somehow trumps everything and anything and everyone else is suddenly wrong and doesnt matter at all. Such a shitty and damaging outlook because its so kneejerk.[/QUOTE] Sounds more like they want to pick-and-choose who should and should not have their feelings prioritized. They "get it", they just don't care.
[QUOTE=Paige;48641208]to everyone who keeps saying "if only she used a gender neutral bathroom this would be fine!!!" why cant a girl use the girls room[/QUOTE] Because right now, to many she's not a girl. Or not yet. We're talking about someone who's only recently come out as female and everyone around them probably feels as if they were still being the guy they knew.
Sounds like a bunch of ignorant, bratty kids if you ask me. What a horrible thing, their lives are forever scarred. pshh
[QUOTE=mrknifey;48625902]You can call me ignorant if you like, i think you are excessively politically correct. Let me simplify. In scientific terms, a male has a penis and a female has a vagina. It gets a bit more complicated if someone has both sets, but that's not the case here. He may feel like a woman trapped in a man's body (or whatever psychological maelstrom is going on in this case), and out of consideration to her preferences, i would call her "she" if i ever had interactions with her (the same way i might call Johnathon "Jon" instead) but it doesn't change the fact that he has a penis, and therefore goes to the "penis" groups changeroom or the non-segregated changeroom. The segregation is not based on identity, it's based on physicality. Also, the community he is part of have previously known him as a male; that is tied to him personally, they don't need to see his penis to identify him as a male. A female has every right to use the female changerooms; but the people who do not want him in the female changerooms do not recognise him as a female, and are uncomfortable with a "male" sharing their changerooms. (apologies for the late reply)[/QUOTE] It's not excessive political correctness, it's just what it is. So, I will call you ignorant. And transphobic. Your constant use of male pronouns and assertion that that's correct shows you are too uneducated on transgenderism for anything you have to contribute to this thread to be taken seriously. [editline]10th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=wraithcat;48652974]Because right now, to many she's not a girl. Or not yet. We're talking about someone who's only recently come out as female and everyone around them probably feels as if they were still being the guy they knew.[/QUOTE] That's just too bad, for them. They don't get to be the judge on what gender she is. They have no right to power to decide what bathroom she should use.
Okay look, this is pretty bothersome that people are calling the students ignorant and bigoted. I'm a lesbian, I'm very open minded to most of this lgbtq stuff; but I do get really uncomfortable when someone (who was biologically, at birth, a male) comes in to use the ladies room. That dosen't make me bigoted or ignorant, it just means I get creeped out when someone with (or who used to have) a penis is using the same restroom as me. I feel like they should just instal a gender neutral bathroom alongside the male and female restrooms.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.