200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48651359]Its irrelevant because "omg I might see dick" is not a valid excuse for a segregated bathroom[/QUOTE]
Why not? I hate to say it, but you aren't the arbiter of social norms. There's also more to it than you're letting on.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48651359]Something that will be markedly worse then simply letting us use the bathroom of our identified gender.[/QUOTE]
Why? You keep saying things as if they're verifiable scientific fact when they most definitely aren't.
another reason to call this state misery
i know a couple people from missouri and i don't hear a lot of good things about that state.
Culturally we're not ready for transgender people in changing rooms yet, and that should be respected. It is not bigotry and it will eventually change, but it will need time to SLOWLY change. This is simply because it is making a fundamental change of making the entire of humanity gender neutral.
You also have to consider other cultures - there are certain cultures where a man seeing a woman in a changing room can cause far worse offence than ours. We live in a multi-cultural world guys.
There will be change. But this is one change I believe will happen over time. Just because somebody has not made that change yet does NOT make them a bigot.
[QUOTE=IJNOMED;48653268]Okay look, this is pretty bothersome that people are calling the students ignorant and bigoted.
I'm a lesbian, I'm very open minded to most of this lgbtq stuff; but I do get really uncomfortable when someone (who was biologically, at birth, a male) comes in to use the ladies room. That dosen't make me bigoted or ignorant, it just means I get creeped out when someone with (or who used to have) a penis is using the same restroom as me.
[/QUOTE]
Better yet make every single bathrooms one of those lovely big disabled accessible type affairs.
A nice roomy cubicle all to yourself with none of the issues surrounding traditional ones, such as a lock that never works and a massive gap that lets people see into. Added bonus, now every bathroom is disabled accessible, what's not to like? Sure it takes up a fair amount of room but I'd rather have fewer better toilets than the frankly industrial affair we have going on in the men's these days...
I feel like they should just instal a gender neutral bathroom alongside the male and female restrooms.
For people arguing for closed changing rooms: remember that a normal high school football team can easily have 40+ players. So you would need at least that many changing rooms.
[QUOTE=IJNOMED;48653268]Okay look, this is pretty bothersome that people are calling the students ignorant and bigoted.
I'm a lesbian, I'm very open minded to most of this lgbtq stuff; but I do get really uncomfortable when someone (who was biologically, at birth, a male) comes in to use the ladies room. That dosen't make me bigoted or ignorant, it just means I get creeped out when someone with (or who used to have) a penis is using the same restroom as me.
I feel like they should just instal a gender neutral bathroom alongside the male and female restrooms.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://cdn1.theweek.co.uk/sites/theweek/files/styles/theweek_insert_main_image/public/8/88//150310-bathrooms.jpg?itok=b4Ki1hs6[/IMG][IMG]http://www.advocate.com/sites/advocate.com/files/IJustNeedToPee-x400.jpg[/IMG]
Ah, women in the male-designated bathroom and men in the female-designated bathroom. That's much better, I feel so much more comfortable now. Thank god their genitals are where I say they should be.
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
I'm pretty sure it's a lot worse to basically be told "you can't use the women's restroom because you're not a real girl" than to know that a woman with a penis is in the women's restroom. Someone's genitals is [I]none of your business[/I] so whether or not they have a dick isn't something you have a right to know. Just let women use the women's restroom. There will be no issue unless you follow her into the stall to watch how she urinates.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48654144]I'm pretty sure it's a lot worse to basically be told "you can't use the women's restroom because you're not a real girl" than to know that a woman with a penis is in the women's restroom. Someone's genitals is [I]none of your business[/I] so whether or not they have a dick isn't something you have a right to know. Just let women use the women's restroom. There will be no issue unless you follow her into the stall to watch how she urinates.[/QUOTE]
2 reasons why your argument doesn't apply:
1) This is a locker room, not a bathroom. So no, they can't go in a stall and hide from everyone else.
2) The person in question looks more like a man than a woman. So your examples are totally useless, even in the case of a bathroom.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48654144][IMG]http://cdn1.theweek.co.uk/sites/theweek/files/styles/theweek_insert_main_image/public/8/88//150310-bathrooms.jpg?itok=b4Ki1hs6[/IMG][IMG]http://www.advocate.com/sites/advocate.com/files/IJustNeedToPee-x400.jpg[/IMG]
Ah, women in the male-designated bathroom and men in the female-designated bathroom. That's much better, I feel so much more comfortable now. Thank god their genitals are where I say they should be.
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
I'm pretty sure it's a lot worse to basically be told "you can't use the women's restroom because you're not a real girl" than to know that a woman with a penis is in the women's restroom. Someone's genitals is [I]none of your business[/I] so whether or not they have a dick isn't something you have a right to know. Just let women use the women's restroom. There will be no issue unless you follow her into the stall to watch how she urinates.[/QUOTE]
Well I'm not so sure about you but it's been drilled into me since day one, that out of common decency men go to the men's and women go to the women's. Going to the loo is a necessity of bodily function, not a means to express opinion or a display of liberty, you go in, do your dirty business and leave.
Sure a person may feel as though they are woman trapped in a man's body and I think the emphasis here is "in a man's body" and I think it perfectly fine if a woman does not want a man's body hanging around the place where they do some already unfortunate business in public. Sure if they were post-op it'd be different but until the plumbings been replaced you still gotta use the old pipes.
This is a similar case where issue of physical gender affect differences in mental gender but all I can say is that for now, yes you DO have a man's body, like it or not you are going to have to deal with it until you can get it changed an I am by all means supportive if they wish to make that change.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48654541]2 reasons why your argument doesn't apply:
1) This is a locker room, not a bathroom. So no, they can't go in a stall and hide from everyone else.
2) The person in question looks more like a man than a woman. So your examples are totally useless, even in the case of a bathroom.[/QUOTE]
[quote="From the article"]She also told officials she did not want to use a unisex faculty restroom, but wanted to be allowed to use the girls’ locker room [B]and[/B] restrooms.[/quote]
Locker room is kind of a gray scenario, but the bathroom should be clear cut.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;48654712]Well I'm not so sure about you but it's been drilled into me since day one, that out of common decency men go to the men's and women go to the women's. Going to the loo is a necessity of bodily function, not a means to express opinion or a display of liberty, you go in, do your dirty business and leave.
Sure a person may feel as though they are woman trapped in a man's body and I think the emphasis here is "in a man's body" and I think it perfectly fine if a woman does not want a man's body hanging around the place where they do some already unfortunate business in public. Sure if they were post-op it'd be different but until the plumbings been replaced you still gotta use the old pipes.
This is a similar case where issue of physical gender affect differences in mental gender but all I can say is that for now, yes you DO have a man's body, like it or not you are going to have to deal with it until you can get it changed an I am by all means supportive if they wish to make that change.[/QUOTE]
Why does everyone have such a hard time understanding that toilets are unisex? Unless if you personally check their genitals before they go into the bathroom, you're not going to know.
And if you're seeing someone else's genitals in a bathroom, then someone is doing something wrong.
As those pictures show, if you're presenting yourself as your gender but are forced to go into your original sex's bathroom, it's only going to make things [I]more[/I] awkward.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;48654712]Well I'm not so sure about you but it's been drilled into me since day one, that out of common decency men go to the men's and women go to the women's. Going to the loo is a necessity of bodily function, not a means to express opinion or a display of liberty, you go in, do your dirty business and leave.
Sure a person may feel as though they are woman trapped in a man's body and I think the emphasis here is "in a man's body" and I think it perfectly fine if a woman does not want a man's body hanging around the place where they do some already unfortunate business in public. Sure if they were post-op it'd be different but until the plumbings been replaced you still gotta use the old pipes.
This is a similar case where issue of physical gender affect differences in mental gender but all I can say is that for now, yes you DO have a man's body, like it or not you are going to have to deal with it until you can get it changed an I am by all means supportive if they wish to make that change.[/QUOTE]
Is it really this hard for transphobes to empathize? This is a non issue, if banning lesbians from a woman's bathroom because people feel uncomfortable is discrimination then so is banning a Trans woman. Who the flying fuck are you to decide? Who cares? Bathrooms aren't meant for observing other people.
I don't want to toss the word priveleged around but if you have never had to worry about things like this then I don't see why you actually care. It's pretty convenient for someone who doesn't face discrimination to babble on about their beliefs about how others should conduct themselves.
Banning trans women because they look like men is banning people based on arbitrary appearances. The biggest stress a transgender has is trying to pass and its people like you that contribute to the hell that they face.
I go to a non secular Catholic college and I'm proud to say we have rules against discrimination against transgender Bathroom usage. If catholics can get with the times, I don't see why you can't.
And plumbing? Seriously? You are a serious bigot.
I don't go around looking/staring at other people in a changing room, so I expect people to not stare at me either. Sorry but if a trans girl is using the same changing room as me I'd be a little weirded out. I'm still accepting of what they identify as but jesus christ why does everything have to be all tumblr-ey?!
It is not bigoted or ignorant to feel uncomfortable.
(also wow I just can't type today)
[QUOTE=sgman91;48654541]2 reasons why your argument doesn't apply:
1) This is a locker room, not a bathroom. So no, they can't go in a stall and hide from everyone else.
2) The person in question looks more like a man than a woman. So your examples are totally useless, even in the case of a bathroom.[/QUOTE]
If we're going by looks, would it be OK to make a very masculine looking woman use the men's room?
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;48655594]Is it really this hard for transphobes to empathize? This is a non issue, if banning lesbians from a woman's bathroom because people feel uncomfortable is discrimination then so is banning a Trans woman. Who the flying fuck are you to decide? Who cares? Bathrooms aren't meant for observing other people.
I don't want to toss the word priveleged around but if you have never had to worry about things like this then I don't see why you actually care. It's pretty convenient for someone who doesn't face discrimination to babble on about their beliefs about how others should conduct themselves.
Banning trans women because they look like men is banning people based on arbitrary appearances. The biggest stress a transgender has is trying to pass and its people like you that contribute to the hell that they face.
I go to a non secular Catholic college and I'm proud to say we have rules against discrimination against transgender Bathroom usage. If catholics can get with the times, I don't see why you can't.
And plumbing? Seriously? You are a serious bigot.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I explained my point right so I'll try again.
It was merely a question of common decency having been taught that way since I was young, people not having to catch a glance of the opposite genders privates(and preferably the same genders) even accidentally.
Sure I perhaps my statement did seem a little short sighted I'll give you that, I can understand how hard it is for trans people seeing as they want people to see them as what they feel they truly are, but the mechanical matter of the subject is that there is a penis in the women's bathroom, or vice versa and people might find that upsetting, especially if there is no context to the situation.
Lets say someone with a gentleman sausage is caught in the ladies, I don't think peoples first question is "Are you a transgendered person?" I think most peoples first question is "What the hell do you think you are doing in here?" Now I know that sounds short sighted and bigoted... but that's kinda the way people just are right now the cultural fabric of society has been tightly woven over years and it's going to take some time to unravel it. I think a good way of saying it is that our society needs to "evolve" to be more accepting of this stuff, it can't just be forced. So in the meantime, I know it's a little inconvenient but better to not cause a fuss and get "transgendered people branded as perverts" because god knows one day this is going to offend the wrong person who has TOO much power for who they are and could end up feuling some nastier (and more well funded) anti-trans campaigns.
This issue is indeed rectified by the use of unisex cubicles, and heck I'd much rather not even having one bath"room" rather a series of separate cubicles which would be MUCH nicer and not just a big room with shitty MDF divider panels, nice solid walls so it's just you and your business with nobody else in any form of noticeable proximity.
Also "plumbing" is a commonly accepted euphemism round these parts, it's not bigoted and was no way intended with any form of bigotry.
And again I re-iterate, the bathroom should never be a staging ground for any cause be it just or otherwise. It's just a place people need to get in, do their business, and leave the should be no politics in any form of bathroom, toilet, dunny, craphouse, shittery, throne room, daily mail editors office etc...
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48653226]It's not excessive political correctness, it's just what it is. So, I will call you ignorant. And transphobic.
Your constant use of male pronouns and assertion that that's correct shows you are too uneducated on transgenderism for anything you have to contribute to this thread to be taken seriously.
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
That's just too bad, for them. They don't get to be the judge on what gender she is. They have no right to power to decide what bathroom she should use.[/QUOTE]
you make a lot of presumptions about who i am given you know nothing about me or my life. that said, i really couldn't care less if you think i am transphobic or ignorant; i have nothing to prove to you or the other one. after all, you haven't made an argument, you have only attacked what you presume is my character.
as for others not being able to judge what gender "she" is? actually, that's pretty much the definition of social identity. you are part of a group A) because you identify with them, B) because you have similarities to them (typically physical) and C) because the community group accepts you as a part of them.
in this case, the community group sees "her" as a man still; is it right for a man to force his way into the female changerooms by throwing around the "transphobe" and "discrimination" until people just shut up and let "her" have "her" way. it's like the word "racist" thrown around in australia; it makes some people uncomfortable enough that they just do whatever the person screaming racist wants, even when it's not racially motivated.
This thread is a fucking nightmare.
Fuck all this lgbtq stuff because half the people have no chill.
Love is love, you can identify as the oppositte sex and have my full support but GOD DAMM why is everyone so DAMN TOUCHY about it! This could EASILY be solved with gender neutral locker rooms/bathrooms.
[QUOTE=IJNOMED;48656563]This thread is a fucking nightmare.
Fuck all this lgbtq stuff because half the people have no chill.
Love is love, you can identify as the oppositte sex and have my full support but GOD DAMM why is everyone so DAMN TOUCHY about it! This could EASILY be solved with gender neutral locker rooms/bathrooms.[/QUOTE]
All threads with a trans related subject are, for some reason people get really tocuhy over the subject of transgendered people, like if you dare say a bad word against them people dive down your throats.
I literally saw some people musing violence and possibly death to those who would dare critique any part of the transgendered movement. The terms "Depression, Oppression, Bigot, Privilege" get thrown around so much it feels like you're on tumblr.
Not to blanket and pidgeohole everyone who supports trans poeple, I assume that the group is mostly reasonable and rational like most people, it's just the vocal minority are VERY vocal.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;48655892]If we're going by looks, would it be OK to make a very masculine looking woman use the men's room?[/QUOTE]
Masculine women don't look like men.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48656695]Masculine women don't look like men.[/QUOTE]
You have not met some of the people I have then
Honestly this is really touching on an issue that hasn't been talked much about in the thread.
Generalizing this situation too much to the point where it is "Transgender teen wants to enter change/bathroom and girls wont let her" will actually just complicate things.
The main issue to be discussed here, I think, is how transgenderism can and should be recieved in a social group. This isn't just some statistical happening, it is a case where people have known eachother before coming out.
To be more specific, this is a case where the person in question was seen as a male only up until relatively recently. The person felt this way for a while, but did not say anything. Setting aside the fact that gender neutral facilities are available, the question becomes:
"What period of time, if any, should a transgender person wait before attempting to use the bathrooms of the opposite gender where the people who visit that bathroom know the transgender person?"
Several issues arise. First off, should they wait at all? How can we verify that a person is transgender, do we even need to? Does the fact that the people who use the bathroom know the person change anything? What about the the level of commitment? What would qualify? A Wig? A Dress? What if they do none of those things but feel none the less feminine? There obviously is a duty of eventual acceptance on the part of the people using the bathroom, especially if the person goes through a gender reassignment, but does the transgendered person then have any duties towards the users of the bathroom - members of the person's community who know them - people who might feel uncomfortable or even threatened?
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
And yes, that was a shit-load of questions, and not very many answers.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;48657528]Honestly this is really touching on an issue that hasn't been talked much about in the thread...[/QUOTE]
don't know if anyone will want to be complimented by me, but here goes; that was perhaps the most rational post in this whole damn thread, good job:)
i don't really have answers to all those questions; but i do have to say that you cannot force someone to accept you, they have to come to it in their own time. by this person making it a "i have a legal right to be here or you are transphobe" issue, they have put everyone else's feelings to the wayside to force their way into a changeroom that they are not welcome in. a less aggressive and self-righteous approach would likely have never started a media shitstorm, nor led to such public ostracisation.
i think the period of time between coming out as trans, and using bathrooms/changerooms of their identified gender depends on the community itself. some people are really accepting, and would be "oh, then start using the [I]x[/I] rooms." other groups may never accept a transgender person. it's really none of our business what equipment a person has under their clothes; but if the group has previously known the transgender person it will affect their ability to accept the changes. best outcome is pretty much to never have been known in the community as the other gender.
wigs, dresses and the likes are superficial and irrelevant. if a girl wears guys jeans she doesn't become a man. if a big png man with a beard likes wearing pretty summer dresses, that doesn't make him a woman. these are window dressing, not roadmaps to gender. to me, we need to get less sensitive about the issue. most of the time "your" identity doesn't affect "mine" and i should get no say in it. but "your" identity doesn't overrule the mores and customs of the society we are both a part of. if you want to remain a part of the community, play nice.
Surely the 200 people marching out of school were making way more of a media shitstorm than the single individual who just wanted to use the changing room?
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48658616]Surely the 200 people marching out of school were making way more of a media shitstorm than the single individual who just wanted to use the changing room?[/QUOTE]
i'm sure they did. and some of them would have felt that a media outcry was needed to prevent [b]their[/b] rights from being trampled by a scared school being bullied by [B]one student[/B] wanting to be allowed to go into the wrong changerooms.
(the rest probably just wanted an excuse for a day off)
[QUOTE=Paige;48641208]to everyone who keeps saying "if only she used a gender neutral bathroom this would be fine!!!"
why cant a girl use the girls room[/QUOTE]
having thoughts of being a girl, and wearing make up doesnt make you female.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;48658595]don't know if anyone will want to be complimented by me, but here goes; that was perhaps the most rational post in this whole damn thread, good job:)
i don't really have answers to all those questions; but i do have to say that you cannot force someone to accept you, they have to come to it in their own time. by this person making it a "i have a legal right to be here or you are transphobe" issue, they have put everyone else's feelings to the wayside to force their way into a changeroom that they are not welcome in. a less aggressive and self-righteous approach would likely have never started a media shitstorm, nor led to such public ostracisation.
i think the period of time between coming out as trans, and using bathrooms/changerooms of their identified gender depends on the community itself. some people are really accepting, and would be "oh, then start using the [I]x[/I] rooms." other groups may never accept a transgender person. it's really none of our business what equipment a person has under their clothes; but if the group has previously known the transgender person it will affect their ability to accept the changes. best outcome is pretty much to never have been known in the community as the other gender.
wigs, dresses and the likes are superficial and irrelevant. if a girl wears guys jeans she doesn't become a man. if a big png man with a beard likes wearing pretty summer dresses, that doesn't make him a woman. these are window dressing, not roadmaps to gender. to me, we need to get less sensitive about the issue. most of the time "your" identity doesn't affect "mine" and i should get no say in it. but "your" identity doesn't overrule the mores and customs of the society we are both a part of. if you want to remain a part of the community, play nice.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;48660112]having thoughts of being a girl, and wearing make up doesnt make you female.[/QUOTE]
Transgender people have a physiological condition that means that their brains aren't matching with their sex.
Dumbing it down to thinking like a girl and wearing makeup is ignoring a confirmed physiological condition. Dumbing it down to a man with a beard that likes wearing pretty summer dresses is just plain ignorance. Being transgender isn't about wearing dresses or makeup or pretending to be a girl. In their case it's the other way around, by not being accepted as the gender that their actual brain is, they're having to pretend that they are a different sex that they are.
Let's say your family wanted a girl and forced you to wear dresses and act like a girl and grow long hair, even though you were a boy, that would be along the same lines of distress that transgender people get when they aren't recognised as their own gender.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;48657528]Honestly this is really touching on an issue that hasn't been talked much about in the thread.
Generalizing this situation too much to the point where it is "Transgender teen wants to enter change/bathroom and girls wont let her" will actually just complicate things.
The main issue to be discussed here, I think, is how transgenderism can and should be recieved in a social group. This isn't just some statistical happening, it is a case where people have known eachother before coming out.
To be more specific, this is a case where the person in question was seen as a male only up until relatively recently. The person felt this way for a while, but did not say anything. Setting aside the fact that gender neutral facilities are available, the question becomes:
"What period of time, if any, should a transgender person wait before attempting to use the bathrooms of the opposite gender where the people who visit that bathroom know the transgender person?"
Several issues arise. First off, should they wait at all? How can we verify that a person is transgender, do we even need to? Does the fact that the people who use the bathroom know the person change anything? What about the the level of commitment? What would qualify? A Wig? A Dress? What if they do none of those things but feel none the less feminine? There obviously is a duty of eventual acceptance on the part of the people using the bathroom, especially if the person goes through a gender reassignment, but does the transgendered person then have any duties towards the users of the bathroom - members of the person's community who know them - people who might feel uncomfortable or even threatened?
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
And yes, that was a shit-load of questions, and not very many answers.[/QUOTE]
I had previously (and incorrectly) used this as an argument about two years ago or so.
There's a noticeable difference between a blatant man walking in and a transgendered person. You make some kind of a point about just wearing a wig and a dress, but if someone goes through all that effort to go to the women's bathroom, the only step they're going to go from there is to go into a cubicle. And from that point, who cares.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;48655980]Sure I perhaps my statement did seem a little short sighted I'll give you that, I can understand how hard it is for trans people seeing as they want people to see them as what they feel they truly are, but the mechanical matter of the subject is that there is a penis in the women's bathroom, or vice versa and people might find that upsetting, especially if there is no context to the situation.
Lets say someone with a gentleman sausage is caught in the ladies, I don't think peoples first question is "Are you a transgendered person?" I think most peoples first question is "What the hell do you think you are doing in here?" Now I know that sounds short sighted and bigoted... but that's kinda the way people just are right now the cultural fabric of society has been tightly woven over years and it's going to take some time to unravel it. I think a good way of saying it is that our society needs to "evolve" to be more accepting of this stuff, it can't just be forced. So in the meantime, I know it's a little inconvenient but better to not cause a fuss and get "transgendered people branded as perverts" because god knows one day this is going to offend the wrong person who has TOO much power for who they are and could end up feuling some nastier (and more well funded) anti-trans campaigns.
[/QUOTE]
Girl's bathrooms use cubicles so nobody is going to see someone else's genitals so the whole being uncomfortable about the opposite sex's genitals argument doesn't really add up.
Also the standard procedure being a full operation is 2 years + on hormones and actually living as the correct gender. That would be 2 years dealing with all the public bathroom nonsense and it's a necessary step. Unless you think there's a way around that, you should probably rethink your priorities and how uncomfortable that actually makes you. Because in reality this doesn't actually affect anybody else but transgendered people and other people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't have a say in it.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;48660112]having thoughts of being a girl, and wearing make up doesnt make you female.[/QUOTE]
Yeah man that's exactly what being transgender means right. Its not like the vast majority of the evidence places transgenderism as have the brain structure of a female or anything right.
But your "I obviously have done no research into this" argument of course trumps the scientists who research it, right?
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