200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Levelog;48601933]Why should someone who sees them self as a female be forced into using a men's restroom?[/QUOTE]
That's not how it works. The argument for why seeing yourself as a woman gives you the right to use a woman's restroom/locker room needs to be made first since that's the new idea being posited.
[QUOTE=geel9;48601586]I don't think it's fair to say that they aren't legitimately uncomfortable...while they kind of have to just suck it up and fucking deal with it, saying that they're not legitimately uncomfortable and are purely 100% just bigoted is kind of stupid.[/QUOTE]
It's bigotry, just because it might make one uncomfortable it doesn't mean one should limit another's civil rights. There's no legitimate reason to restrict trans people to the bathroom of their assigned gender
[QUOTE=tempunary;48601962]Where's the Washington restroom? I personally identify myself as George Washington, you know.[/QUOTE]
Yeah yeah mr. attack helicopter
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48601690]I'm sorry but I don't agree that just because you feel like you're a different gender, you get to go into private places.
How about I decide that I'm a female.... But I th I'll only feel female when I'm at a woman's volley ball game and go ahead and use their locker room. Since I "feel" I'm a female, it's all cool right?[/QUOTE]
Going into bathrooms to creep on people would still be illegal you know. If we divided bathrooms to keep perverts out we'd have to force gay men and lesbian women into womens' restrooms and mens' restrooms accordingly.
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48601690]I'm sorry but I don't agree that just because you feel like you're a different gender, you get to go into private places.
How about I decide that I'm a female.... But I th I'll only feel female when I'm at a woman's volley ball game and go ahead and use their locker room. Since I "feel" I'm a female, it's all cool right?[/QUOTE]
Hello Mr. Republican slippery slope, meet the real world consequences of everything you just said
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48601977]It's bigotry, just because it might make one uncomfortable it doesn't mean one should limit another's civil rights. There's no legitimate reason to restrict trans people to the bathroom of their assigned gender[/QUOTE]
You don't have a civil right to use whatever bathroom you want, and making lots of people uncomfortable is generally a legitimate reason to deny a non-civil right. For example, public nudity is illegal for that very reason.
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48601836]I don't see how. Male feels female. That's the bare-bones of it. So they decide that the rest of the world has to agree? Well ive decided I'm president. The rest of the world must agree or it's discrimination!
Look, personally, I don't care what someone is attracted to. It's their own choice and I wish everybody would just shut up and let people make their own personal choices for their own life.
It's when someone forces others to agree and change their lives is when it gets wrong. Whether the person doing that is trans, gay, Christian, whatever. No one has to agree with someone else. Modern society for some reason thinks that their opinions have to matter. They don't. No one's does, not even mine.[/QUOTE]
If you truly didn't care what people identify as then you wouldn't be making ignorant off-hand jokes about trans people like "hurr, I'm a fuckin WWII tank and you can't say I'm not lmao xd".
[QUOTE=sgman91;48601993]You don't have a civil right to use whatever bathroom you want, and making lots of people uncomfortable is generally a legitimate reason to deny a non-civil right. For example, public nudity is illegal for that very reason.[/QUOTE]
It's uncomfortable to them in the same way seeing a gay couple in public is uncomfortable to others.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48601803]I've never understood how this phrase is meaningful at all. Just because one side wins over time doesn't make them right. Many times throughout history humanity has gotten worse.
I'm not even talking about this issue specifically. That phrase just seems really common while also being really dumb.[/QUOTE]
"how does it feel being on the wrong side of history"
--american scientists, academics and intellectuals during the eugenics movement
that phrase is meaningless
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48602013]It's uncomfortable to them in the same way seeing a gay couple in public is uncomfortable to others.[/QUOTE]
Of course you DO actually have a civil right to walk around with another person. On the other hand, you don't have a civil right to use whatever bathroom you want.
I would argue that that isn't the same at all, but it's not relevant to my point.
It's humorous yes, but not entirely a joke. Explain to me why, since they have decided that they are female even though they weren't born that way. Others are being forced to agree with them.
When if I were to say, I feel African American, so now you must make me eligible for the African American scholarships and schools. Even though I wasn't born that way, ive feel I am. So you must oblige.
I'm serious! I would like a serious conversation about the logic of why a trans person gets Right, but (in this scenario) I look crazy for feeling Im something Im not. Can you guys manage a conversation without insults?
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602018]Right, but you actually do have a civil right to walk around with another person. On the other hand, you don't have a civil right to use whatever bathroom you want.[/QUOTE]
Why not?
Especially because I'm assuming that it's a government run high school
They could just make one big, unisex locker room.
Guys, I'm almost positive that the issue of transgenderism is one with at least a little bit of scientific study and backing, because it just might actually be a thing.
I'm also pretty sure it's not something people just up and decide to choose one day, so those "I've decided I'm the president why can't I rule" posts just might be a little bit offensive.
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602023]It's humorous yes, but not entirely a joke. Explain to me why, since they have decided that they are female even though they weren't born that way. Others are being forced to agree with them. [/QUOTE]
Maybe because there's scientific research backing transgender brains?
But hey, if you want to keep cracking the same 'hilarious' jokes people always do, don't let that stop you.
[QUOTE=Lium;48601938]Progress, right.
People don't approve of a man wanting to have access to a female bathroom, this is somehow a bad thing?
It doesn't matter that this person believes themselves female. I could believe myself the King of England, should this grant me the right to live in Buckingham Palace?[/QUOTE]
Oh, look who came out of their hole after ratings got disabled.
You're always against everything that has to do with the LGBT community. I don't think you understand people don't follow your idea that everyone is a pretty straight white boy and God makes no mistakes. This is exactly why we're not making any advancement - people like you are holding us back.
I'm not trying to be offensive! Not at all. That's why I changed my example. "I was born white, but I feel like I'm really African American"
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602064]I'm not trying to be offensive! Not at all. That's why I changed my example. "I was born white, but I feel like I'm really African American"[/QUOTE]
That's still pretty offensive.
The reason is that that's not a real thing, transgenderism is.
Gender identity is a tricky subject for those who have not had to battle with it. Its nearly impossible for someone who always felt like they were born the right way to understand the constant battle, with both society and yourself, being trans, or any non binary gender, is. I made several posts about this last night in another thread [URL=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1483710&p=48597346&viewfull=1#post48597346]if you want a more fuller picture[/URL] but to sum it up, third gendered people who feel more strongly as the opposite gender have the same feeling going into their naturally born locker room/ bathroom/whatever that you would get going into the opposite gender's bathroom. Like if you are cis, it won't be the sexual arousal factor, if you are into that stuff idk, but it will be the uncomfortable factor of you feeling like you don't belong there. I know those who have strong conservative views will feel awkward sharing a bathroom with a third gendered individual, but in the end someone has to be offended, and its better to cut slack to those who have been battling themselves their entire life than someone who is uncomfortable for like 3 minutes. The whole argument of "BUT SOME PERV CAN JUST PRETEND TO BE A LADY TO SEE BOOBIES" doesn't really work when you see homosexual people in a bathroom. Like no matter what, if someone is masterbating in a bathroom or being a creep, they are breaking the law, and the amount of cases of creeps dressing in drag to see boobs is going to be the same as the number of homosexuals jacking off while you take a poop in a public restroom, little to none. In a world where you have to pick the better of two evils, to say, choosing the one that benefits those who have suffered more is usually the more humane way of going about things.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;48602052]Maybe because there's scientific research backing transgender brains?
But hey, if you want to keep cracking the same 'hilarious' jokes people always do, don't let that stop you.[/QUOTE]
Look, I'm not saying people like that have to stop. Again, it's personal choice. Anybody that is trying to control what someone feels about themselves is not cool in my book.
I'm talking civil rights. Let's turn the example around for a minute. Let's say a Christian were to go into the school and say "You're not allowed to use the unisex bathroom! You were born male! You must oblige to the way I feel!"
That's wrong right? Of course it is! It's the same both ways.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48602081]That's still pretty offensive.[/QUOTE]
Why is it offensive? Don't you believe that a white person identifying as a black person isn't a right thing while a man identifying as a woman is a real thing?
If so, why not just say so.
If she just used gender neutral bathrooms, none of this would blow up as it did.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48602081]That's still pretty offensive.
The reason is that that's not a real thing, transgenderism is.[/QUOTE]
The point still stands. And no, as a guy who's perfectly comfortable being a guy, I don't completely understand. But in order to really debate, you can't say "you argument is invalid because mine has had studies and yours hasn't "
In a base form, they both deal with someone feeling uncomfortable the way they are.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602092]Why is it offensive? Don't you believe that a white person identifying as a black person isn't a right thing while a man identifying as a woman is a real thing?
If so, why not just say so.[/QUOTE]
Because while there is science that suggests that transgenderism is a legit thing that can't be gotton rid of via therapy or other treatments, "transracialism" is not.
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602106]The point still stands. And no, as a guy who's perfectly comfortable being a guy, I don't completely understand. But in order to really debate, you can't say "you argument is invalid because mine has had studies and yours hasn't "
In a base form, they both deal with someone feeling uncomfortable the way they are.[/QUOTE]
You're literally saying that just because you can't point to any evidence doesn't mean you're wrong (technically, it is true that just because you lack evidence doesn't mean you're wrong. But you aren't winning any arguments with that). Why not read those studies and figure out how they came to their conclusions?
[QUOTE=Monkah;48601676][thumb]http://2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Lila-Perry-800x430.jpg[/thumb]
People knew Perry as a male for possibly up to twelve or so years. As far as the picture shows, Perry still pretty much looks entirely masculine, minus the outgrown hair. The protest is nothing but bullying, but I emphasize with people simply uncomfortable with the idea of someone that's really not yet transitioned using the same locker rooms.
I'm 100% for Lila-- hopefully, the transition will work out well for her, and she'll be able to live a normal life. However, an untransitioned person using the same showers as people of the opposite sex? Shit, I'd feel uncomfortable with that as well. Locker rooms and showers should be based on sex, not gender.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree on basing it at the sex of the individual rather than the identified gender. I fully respect that Perry's going through her transision, however she's still pre-op and thus legally a male. If things were based on gender rather than sex, anyone'd be able to claim things, whereas pro-operation there'd be no chance of faking it for an advantage.
Perry should had utilized the gender neutral place and settled things quietly. Changing your gender's not something to be rushed, especially while going through the transision, so it's no wonder the girls are worried as they're no more prepared for this than Perry really.
[QUOTE=splenda;48601853]This is why gender neutral bathrooms should be more of a thing. Gender is already a stupid social construct, and a tool for bigots to enforce their repressive viewpoints on the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
Everything's a social construct if you want it to be. Is there anything inherently bad about social constructs? Saying gender doesn't exist is a social construct as well (unless you think you can personally place yourself outside social constructs and say something objective about it), and honestly it opens up a whole can of worms about sexuality, pray the gay away or whatever.
I'm all for gender neutral bathrooms (to a degree), especially when you just have segregated ones with no differences between them - that's just a dumb waste of space. Locker rooms are a bit different, though, you have to think about what people are comfortable with. If someone doesn't want to see a penis (even if it sits on a trans woman), you have to respect that wish even if you think it's an oudated viewpoint.
Comparing people who battle gender identity with those who jokingly call themselves like "King Henry VIII" is pretty offensive and in my opinion has no place in today's society. The whole otherkin movement is a different subject that I talked about in my linked posts, but those mocking it is really undermining the struggle that third gender-identified people actually struggle with since birth. I don't want to be mean because I understand that it is a near impossible feeling to grasp, but when you are already battling things like depression, suicidal thoughts, not feeling comfortable in your own body, not feeling accepted at all in society, and then having people be like "If you are a girl then I'm a battleship" just makes these feelings more severe.
At the end of the day she has a penis, and hence shouldn't be allowed to use the girls changing room
Because girls don't have penises
[QUOTE=splenda;48602083]to sum it up, third gendered people who feel more strongly as the opposite gender have the same feeling going into their naturally born locker room/ bathroom/whatever that you would get going into the opposite gender's bathroom.[/QUOTE]
This is personally where my disconnect comes in. Personally, I would be WAY more comfortable using the opposite sex's locker room than using one that I knew made other people uncomfortable. There's not some boogie man magic floating in the air of one locker room over another that should make anyone uncomfortable.
Based on personal experience, the sexual aspect is the key factor to being uncomfortable in the other sex's bathroom, but if you take that out, then I really don't know why it would be uncomfortable.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48601977]It's bigotry, just because it might make one uncomfortable it doesn't mean one should limit another's civil rights. There's no legitimate reason to restrict trans people to the bathroom of their assigned gender
Yeah yeah mr. attack helicopter
Going into bathrooms to creep on people would still be illegal you know. If we divided bathrooms to keep perverts out we'd have to force gay men and lesbian women into womens' restrooms and mens' restrooms accordingly.[/QUOTE]
Being uncomfortable does not allow them to change bathrooms. I said this in an earlier post but no-one seemed to notice:
[B]If being uncomfortable is the only argument being put forward, then it loses[/B] because the result of this position causes far more people to be uncomfortable in a way not unlike the person complaining originally. It is a matter of having to be in a bathroom with people that you "think" are not part of your gender or otherwise make you uncomfortable.
There, I say again, if being uncomfortable is the thing to be avoided then, atleast for the time being, in that school, they ought to choose the many over the one.
It is a variation on the train car problem. If you could flip a switch an have a run away (metaphoric) train car of discomfort hit one person or 200, who would you choose?
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48602107]Because while there is science that suggests that transgenderism is a legit thing that can't be gotton rid of via therapy or other treatments, "transracialism" is not.[/QUOTE]
That's literally what I suggested. Why not just make the point instead of calling something offensive?
I don't know if you're talking about that other dude (judging from that guy's response, he's a trouble maker?)
I'm not trying to make fun, just a logical opposing argument.
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