200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Monkah;48601676][thumb]http://2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Lila-Perry-800x430.jpg[/thumb]
People knew Perry as a male for possibly up to twelve or so years. As far as the picture shows, Perry still pretty much looks entirely masculine, minus the outgrown hair. The protest is nothing but bullying, but I emphasize with people simply uncomfortable with the idea of someone that's really not yet transitioned using the same locker rooms.
I'm 100% for Lila-- hopefully, the transition will work out well for her, and she'll be able to live a normal life. However, an untransitioned person using the same showers as people of the opposite sex? Shit, I'd feel uncomfortable with that as well. Locker rooms and showers should be based on sex, not gender.[/QUOTE]
Okay then, allow the government to pay for her plastic surgery. Why should trans people have to pay through the nose just to get rights?
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602126]That's literally what I suggested. Why not just make the point instead of calling something offensive?[/QUOTE]
Sure. I can't agree with someone who claims to be a different race than they actually are because there's no real evidence to say I should. It's offensive because it's making a mockery of a real thing.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;48602123]Being uncomfortable does not allow them to change bathrooms. I said this in an earlier post but no-one seemed to notice:
[B]If being uncomfortable is the only argument being put forward, then it loses[/B] because the result of this position causes far more people to be uncomfortable in a way not unlike the person complaining originally. It is a matter of having to be in a bathroom with people that you "think" are not part of your gender or otherwise make you uncomfortable.
There, I say again, if being uncomfortable is the thing to be avoided then, atleast for the time being, in that school, they ought to choose the many over the one.
It is a variation on the train car problem. If you could flip a switch an have a run away (metaphoric) train car of discomfort hit one person or 200, who would you choose?[/QUOTE]
It's possible for the 200 to get over that discomfort. Not quite so for the one. They can A. deal with it, or B. change over time as education improves, neither are much of an impact to them.
[QUOTE=lyna;48602118]At the end of the day she has a penis, and hence shouldn't be allowed to use the girls changing room
Because girls don't have penises[/QUOTE]
holy moly
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48602131]Okay then, allow the government to pay for her plastic surgery. Why should trans people have to pay through the nose just to get rights?[/QUOTE]
Shit, HRT does friggin' magic if you give it time.
Gender roles are social constructs; gender clearly is not, otherwise why would dysphoria be a things?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;48602112]Everything's a social construct if you want it to be. Is there anything inherently bad about social constructs? Saying gender doesn't exist is a social construct as well (unless you think you can personally place yourself outside social constructs and say something objective about it), and honestly it opens up a whole can of worms about sexuality, pray the gay away or whatever.
I'm all for gender neutral bathrooms (to a degree), especially when you just have segregated ones with no differences between them - that's just a dumb waste of space. Locker rooms are a bit different, though, you have to think about what people are comfortable with. If someone doesn't want to see a penis (even if it sits on a trans woman), you have to respect that wish even if you think it's an oudated viewpoint.[/QUOTE]
What I'm trying to get on more about is the theory that there are no "true" stages of gender. No one is 100% masculine, no one is 100% and the labeling of those two things as such cause people to feel like they don't fit in. If as a society, we chose to get rid of the binary labels, the problems we have today about people making their own labels every 5 seconds would not exist. If someone does not feel accepted in the societal gender their genitalia falls under, but then finds a group of people calling themselves "Trans fluid bigendered queers" that accept those based on their feelings rather than their genitalia, then they are going to want to call themselves that too. Sexuality is different than gender though, I don't want to start that discussion either, so the whole "gender is over" theory doesn't really fall under the scrutiny about the pray the gay away stuff.
In terms of gender neutrality, I think the only way to change that is with time. In my opinion, the openness of human sexuality should be more of a thing, rather than the painting that those who do not share your genitalia have "cooties" (just an extreme example.) At this point, gender neutral locker rooms would be a cluster fuck of pervs and uncomfortable people, but if we can somehow change the teachings we give to our children that we are all alike and that your baby making parts do not define you, then in a couple of generations I feel the theory of gender neutral everything may be more palpable to some.
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602122]This is personally where my disconnect comes in. Personally, I would be WAY more uncomfortable using the opposite sex's locker room than using one that I knew made other people uncomfortable. There's not some boogie man magic floating in the air of one locker room over another that should make anyone uncomfortable.
Based on personal experience, the sexual aspect is the key factor to being uncomfortable in the other sex's bathroom, but if you take that out, then I really don't know why it would be uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]
Its more of the part where its a constant reminder that you are in the wrong place. Like your body might be seen as being socially comfortable in a male bathroom if you are born male, but your mind is saying something is wrong because you do not identify as the little sign outside the bathroom.
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
Like I'm not saying everyone should agree with my positions, I totally understand if you do not because its a hard thing to take in, but I'm just trying to sympathize from the girl's perspective in the article.
[QUOTE=splenda;48602174]What I'm trying to get on more about is the theory that there are no "true" stages of gender. No one is 100% masculine, no one is 100% and the labeling of those two things as such cause people to feel like they don't fit in. If as a society, we chose to get rid of the binary labels, the problems we have today about people making their own labels every 5 seconds would not exist. If someone does not feel accepted in the societal gender their genitalia falls under, but then finds a group of people calling themselves "Trans fluid bigendered queers" that accept those based on their feelings rather than their genitalia, then they are going to want to call themselves that too. Sexuality is different than gender though, I don't want to start that discussion either, so the whole "gender is over" theory doesn't really fall under the scrutiny about the pray the gay away stuff.
In terms of gender neutrality, I think the only way to change that is with time. In my opinion, the openness of human sexuality should be more of a thing, rather than the painting that those who do not share your genitalia have "cooties" (just an extreme example.) At this point, gender neutral locker rooms would be a cluster fuck of pervs and uncomfortable people, but if we can somehow change the teachings we give to our children that we are all alike and that your baby making parts do not define you, then in a couple of generations I feel the theory of gender neutral everything may be more palpable to some.[/QUOTE]
Historically, the existence of gender roles seems to have a biological basis since no human society has ever existed without them in some shape or another. Yes, these roles have differed from society to society, but they've always persisted as a fundamental way to organize society.
To say that any and all gender differentiation is useless is an extremely bold and novel claim.
Thank you splenda for taking the time to articulate and explain your points. I respect your debate style!
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602215]Historically, the existence of gender roles seems to have a biological basis since no human society has ever existed without them in some shape or another. Yes, these roles have differed from society to society, but they've always persisted as a fundamental way to organize society.
To say that any and all gender differentiation is useless is an extremely bold and novel claim.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that in today's age, we really should start talking about gender as less of a black and white thing with a few gradient points in between but rather a more fluid way that says that most if not all people are not directly on those points, so "magnetizing" them to said points is kind of a weird thing to do. I know my views are radical and unpopular, even in the lgbtqia+ community, but they are views I hold strongly! It's ok if not everyone agrees with me, but I just want to make the theory I hold onto more known!
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602221]Thank you splenda for taking the time to articulate and explain your points. I respect your debate style![/QUOTE]
Thank you! I try to keep stuff professional but sometimes I get carried away and get to much in my opponent's faces. I mean no disrespect and no ill will to anyone. I just like to debate!
Unless you're born with a set of each genital, I don't in any way see how gender can even not be black and white. Physically speaking, you either have male or female gender. It makes more sense to me to call it sexual identity. But then again, it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense to me. It's not my personal life.
[QUOTE=splenda;48602246]I'm saying that in today's age, we really should start talking about gender as less of a black and white thing with a few gradient points in between but rather a more fluid way that says that most if not all people are not directly on those points, so "magnetizing" them to said points is kind of a weird thing to do. I know my views are radical and unpopular, even in the lgbtqia+ community, but they are views I hold strongly! It's ok if not everyone agrees with me, but I just want to make the theory I hold onto more known!
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
Thank you! I try to keep stuff professional but sometimes I get carried away and get to much in my opponent's faces. I mean no disrespect and no ill will to anyone. I just like to debate![/QUOTE]
I think most people are on those points. I suspect if we had a complely genderless language and society, then the cis people would still be fine, and people who currently feel wrong would still feel wrong.
[QUOTE=splenda;48602246]
Thank you! I try to keep stuff professional but sometimes I get carried away and get to much in my opponent's faces. I mean no disrespect and no ill will to anyone. I just like to debate![/QUOTE]
I do hold opinions opposite to many people here on Facepunch, but if you're willing to discuss with me, I'm always happy to share my opinions and what logic I use to come to those opinions. It seems these days people on every side have forgotten how to debate with sanity. Debate != Argue.
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602264]Unless you're born with a set of each genital, I don't in any way see how gender can even not be black and white. Physically speaking, you either have male or female gender. It makes more sense to me to call it sexual identity. But then again, it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense to me. It's not my personal life.[/QUOTE]
I think sexual identity, gender, and genitalia are three separate things. I know they are usually lumped together, more recently sexual identity has become more separate while gender and genitalia are still closely tied, but in my opinion, what you are born with, what you are attracted to, and what you feel like are three separate things.
I do suppose that makes sense. To me gender=genitalia. Although that's just linguistics.
To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense. But again, I don't really care about what gender people feel. It's personal choice. Just don't impose on other people's life's and I don't care.
So, she looks like a dude and sounds like a dude. Is it really that crazy to assume girls are just uncomfortable with her in their bathroom?
Why are people so hung up on gender in the first place?
I'm a man but if I woke up tomorrow with girl parts I would just continue living my life as I do, as my sex/gender do not define my life as a human being. I mean, I would most likely be a lesbian but I wouldn't obsess over reclaiming my previous physical form
There's nothing in my day-to-day life that I do that I can think of that is specific to any gender (other than basic bodily functions and whatnot)
I'm surprised she would tell people, I live 10 miles from that town and there are a ton of lgbt-phobic people. Not a good idea.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48602139]It's possible for the 200 to get over that discomfort. Not quite so for the one. They can A. deal with it, or B. change over time as education improves, neither are much of an impact to them.[/QUOTE]
Why should 200 deal with it when just because one person cant and wants special treatment?
Like Spock once said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48602139]It's possible for the 200 to get over that discomfort. Not quite so for the one. They can A. deal with it, or B. change over time as education improves, neither are much of an impact to them.[/QUOTE]It's possible for the trans person to "get over it" too, really being stuck with the [i]gender neutral bathroom[/i] is not even remotely a bad option. You're just blindly defending a trans person at this point when they made this big goddamn controversy over absolutely nothing. Seriously, this was not a fucking issue until this person went "ya well but im a real girl ok i can go in there" despite A: not having undergone gender reassignment surgery and B: being repeatedly told no, that makes everyone uncomfortable.
Society is not built around the concept of making everyone feel good with special ass pats and personal hugboxes, sometimes a select few people will be [i]unhappy[/i] with something and making them happy will make many, many more people unhappy. There's other things involved like rights and entitlements but at the end of the day anyone who exists outside the status quo does so because society as a whole consents to it. An example of this is we tolerate people who have a diaper fetish but we don't tolerate people who receive sexual pleasure from murder. Society consents to people having harmless sexual fetishes but does not consent to serial killers running around, this is the way the world works, it's the way [i]everything[/i] works.
[QUOTE=D0C H.;48602299]I do suppose that makes sense. To me gender=genitalia. Although that's just linguistics.
To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense. But again, I don't really care about what gender people feel. It's personal choice. Just don't impose on other people's life's and I don't care.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/OmAg57g.jpg[/img]
You see that person? You know who they are? They are a man.
You know what else that dude has? A vagina.
Like, would you come up to that dude off a street, and call him a girl or a miss? Probably not.
Gender's something that an individual is capable to deciding upon. Sex, the biological, is actually what would be relevant to genitalia.
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;48602335]So, she looks like a dude and sounds like a dude. Is it really that crazy to assume girls are just uncomfortable with her in their bathroom?[/QUOTE]
Get ugly girls out of girl bathrooms!
[QUOTE=Lium;48601938]Progress, right.
People don't approve of a man wanting to have access to a female bathroom, this is somehow a bad thing?
It doesn't matter that this person believes themselves female. I could believe myself the King of England, should this grant me the right to live in Buckingham Palace?[/QUOTE]
I'm sure to take the opinion of someone who hates gays on transgender people seriously right :downs:
Being transgender is a condition where you suffer from gender dysphoria over your sex, not something tumblrinas invented to make themselves special. Whether you believe certain people are faking it or not is an entirely different issue, but Gender Dysphoria and being transgender is legitimate.
Also your precious leveticus in your title doesn't say anything about transgender people, so why do you dislike them?
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602092]Why is it offensive? Don't you believe that a white person identifying as a black person isn't a right thing while a man identifying as a woman is a real thing?
If so, why not just say so.[/QUOTE]
There's evidence that gender dysphoria is a real condition.
There's no evidence that transracialism is.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;48602441]There's evidence that gender dysphoria is a real condition.
There's no evidence that transracialism is.[/QUOTE]
"Don't you believe that a white person identifying as a black person isn't a right thing while a man identifying as a woman is a real thing?"
That's literally what I said. I was simply saying that people should actually give their reasoning for why they disagree instead of just calling it offensive.
20 / 30 years ago gender dysphoria "wasn't a real thing", according to "evidence". So by that logic alone, people back then had the right to discriminate? Because people's feelings are only valid if a scientific study says so?
[QUOTE=TheDrunkenOne;48602056]Oh, look who came out of their hole after ratings got disabled.
You're always against everything that has to do with the LGBT community. I don't think you understand people don't follow your idea that everyone is a pretty straight white boy and God makes no mistakes. This is exactly why we're not making any advancement - people like you are holding us back.[/QUOTE]
Out of my hole? Right. I've always been around, I've simply not seen the need to say anything in a while. Repeating "I am against this" is not only boring but ultimately pointless.
You're right, of course. But I'm against this for logical reasons, not simple bigotry. The fact of the matter is that this person is, in the only [I]important[/I] aspect, a man. We have clear divisions between genders for good reasons, and removing these barriers for the sake of making some people who have decided they don't want to adhere to them happier is sheer madness.
Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate your point. I'm not sure what you mean by "my idea that everyone is a pretty straight white boy". I'm well aware that quite a lot of people are either female, or a race that isn't white, and have never had an issue with either of these. And I really don't understand what you mean by "pretty", since visual looks don't matter in any way, and nor have I ever suggested otherwise. And finally, "God makes no mistakes"? I'm not even religious, what are you talking about.
[QUOTE=Lium;48602519]You're right, of course. But I'm against this for logical reasons, not simple bigotry. The fact of the matter is that this person is, in the only [I]important[/I] aspect, a man. We have clear divisions between genders for good reasons, and removing these barriers for the sake of making some people who have decided they don't want to adhere to them happier is sheer madness.[/QUOTE]
What are the benefits of binary genders?
[QUOTE=Lium;48602519]The fact of the matter is that this person is, in the only [I]important[/I] aspect, a man.[/QUOTE]
huh
what's the only important aspect? that they have a penis?
[QUOTE=gufu;48602414][img]http://i.imgur.com/OmAg57g.jpg[/img]
[/QUOTE]
are you saying this guy should be forced to go to a women's bathroom because the fact that he has a vagina is the only important thing about his sexuality
[QUOTE=gufu;48602540]What are the benefits of binary genders?[/QUOTE]
In bathrooms? Preventing uncomfortable situations, for one. I would be pretty confused and weirded out if some woman barged into a male toilet, claiming that they were actually a man, and I expect this is true for most people.
And if you'd be fine with that, well congrats on being "open minded" or something, but as it stands, this is not the done thing.
[QUOTE=Lium;48602548]In bathrooms? Preventing uncomfortable situations, for one. I would be pretty confused and weirded out if some woman barged into a male toilet, claiming that they were actually a man, and I expect this is true for most people.
And if you'd be fine with that, well congrats on being "open minded" or something, but as it stands, this is not the done thing.[/QUOTE]
But a lot of people are uncomfortable with anyone else being in the bathroom at the same time as them. And hell, last I checked, when I went to the bathroom, I not anyone else went in dick swinging about. Like, no one else, but you, see your dick in the bathroom. The gender or sex don't matter, cause everyone's got a stall/pisser to block off their dangly bits.
[QUOTE=Lium;48602548]In bathrooms? Preventing uncomfortable situations, for one.[/QUOTE]
which is why some states force this trans men to go to women's bathrooms
[img]http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Michael-Hughes.jpg[/img]
clearly preventing a lot of uncomfortable situations there buddy
[QUOTE=gufu;48602540]What are the benefits of binary genders?[/QUOTE]
Well, historically it's been a way to organize society in the most fundamental ways.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.